Nissan Chief: Hybrid Cars Make No Sense

Reuters ^ | Sat Jan 29, 2005 07:44 PM ET

[newgeezer]

NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - The head of Nissan Motor Co., breaking ranks with some of his leading rivals, said on Saturday that building fuel-sipping hybrid vehicles makes little sense in today's world because of their high costs.

"They make a nice story, but they're not a good business story yet because the value is lower than their costs," said Nissan Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn.

Nissan will, in fact, start manufacturing a gas-electric hybrid version of its Altima sedan for the U.S. market in 2006.

But Ghosn said the model was only intended to help Japan's second-largest automaker comply with strict fuel economy and emissions standards in states like California, not because he expects it to be a money-maker.

Nissan will license some technology for the hybrid Altima from Toyota Motor Corp., which is the world leader in hybrid production along with Honda Motor Co. Ltd.

The hybrids made by Toyota and Honda are in high demand, but production levels are still relatively small.

Toyota plans to nearly double production of its hybrid Prius car for the U.S. market this year, with production totaling some 100,000 vehicles.

Ford Motor Co. is alone among U.S. automakers in producing mass-market hybrid models; Ford recently announced plans to introduce four new models between this year and 2008.

Ghosn's comments, which are likely to draw criticism from environmental groups, came in an address to the National Automobile Dealers Association, which opened its annual convention in New Orleans on Saturday.

In his speech, he noted that only about 88,000 of the 16.9 million light vehicles sold in the United States last year were hybrids, adding that they are still considered "niche" products and something way outside the automotive mainstream.

He also poured cold water on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which many automakers see as the industry's next big technological breakthrough.

"The cost to build one fuel cell car is about $800,000. Do the math and you figure out that we will have to reduce the cost of that car by more than 95 percent in order to gain widespread marketplace acceptance," Ghosn said.

Ghosn, who is credited with a dramatic turnaround at Nissan, is poised to take over as chief executive at France's Renault SA in May.

His future role, simultaneously running operations at two major automakers, is thought to be an industry first.

Nissan -- owned 44 percent by Renault -- scored the biggest sales jump of any major car maker in the United States last year, with a 24 percent surge to 986,000 vehicles.

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© Reuters 2005

[newgeezer]

Yes, the Chevy Luv was an Isuzu P'up.

You could be right. My understanding has been that the overseas Chevettes were rebadged (Vauxhall, Isuzu, Holden, etc.) Opel Kadetts. They certainly all had Kadett bodies.

At the very least, the Chevettes in the Americas had a unique body; it did not look at all like a Kadett. It would make sense that GM would design such a small car as a "world car" and tailor the styling of the domestic version to suit American tastes.

(On a related note, I recall U.S. Buick dealers sold Opel Kadetts for a few years in the '70s.)

Thanks. I learned something today (even if it proves to be entirely useless trivia ;O).

[Dead Dog]

I had to look it up online.

[Squantos]

Good points.... Great thread !

My ideal ride would be reverse engineered from a Autozone , NAPA newspaper advertisement flyer. They advertise, 20 dollar alternators, 15 dollar starters etc etc . I would find the cheap parts that are common to a make and model and use that for day to day driver. As regardless of what is or isn't the best......it's gonna "breakdown" at some point and I want to be able to fix it without taking a second mortage on my home to do so.

[The Coopster]

I only mentioned the steam engine to try and make a point.

Which was.......

I'm sure most technological advancements over the years have been hailed as potential failures by folks who don't fully understand what's going on. People here are basing their opinions on past technology/limited personal knowledge.

Maybe the hybrid cars really don't make any sense, for cost reasons. but I would point out that in the early 70's calculators were several thousand dollars, and were the size of a small typewriter. Now you get them free with a tank of gas, and they fit in your wallet.

20 years ago, if you'd gone around saying that everyone would today have a small fully portable phone, and tried to describe the current world of computers/internet/wireless technology - people would have, for the most part, told you to go back to writing more futuristic fairy tales.

There's a whole slew of stuff out there that folks don't understand, no matter how they want to paint themselves as "experts" on the subject.

There's also a whole slew of folks that wouldn't understand new stuff, so therefore the same ol' same old must be better.

That was my point - not to debate whether steam engines and hybrids are similar breakthroughs......

[Polyxene]

One of my friends has one of these hybrids (can't remember the model). It is new. The battery has gone completely dead twice this winter, and the car had to be towed via a flatbed tow truck. He was without a car for days while they tried to "fix" the battery. I would not own one of these things even if it were given to me!

[Dead Dog]

The point that has been made repeatedly on these threads is that it is not a matter of technology, but physics. Thermodynamics to be exact. No matter what you do, 4-2 will always be less then 4-1.

Hybrids are not a new technology. They are an PR trick.

[TChris]

Diesels make a lot more sense.

They made even more sense back when diesel fuel cost less than gasoline. IIRC, the taxes are not equal on the two.

[newgeezer]

The Coopster wrote: People here are basing their opinions on past technology/limited personal knowledge.

'Wonk, have you ever seen that around here?

[biblewonk]

'Wonk, have you ever seen that around here?

That reminds me, we need more windmills.

[Boiler Plate]

Good point. There have been numerous attempts made by car manufacturers in the past and we still don't see Chinese built cars here. The Koreans have been at it for thirty years and their cars are still among the worst built.

[Boot Hill]

Hybrid vehicles were never intended to provide transportation, they were intended to provide one of life's pass/fail IQ tests -- you buy, you fail.

--Boot Hill

[editor-surveyor]

"but I would point out that in the early 70's calculators were several thousand dollars, and were the size of a small typewriter."

Perhaps you meant the 60s? In 1971, my HP45 cost $400 or so and was about twice the size of a pack of cigarettes. It offered a quantum leap from all previous technology. They sell on EBay for about the same today if they have all the components in working order.

[Dan Evans]

Congress should mandate a new test for hybrid vehicles that eliminates their artificial advantage,

Maybe Congress should stop telling the auto makers how to make cars. On our roads today we have a very dangerous mix of lightweight roller skates trying to survive among a fleet of monstrous suburban assault vehicles thanks to congressional mandates. Talk about the law of unintended consequences.

[gridlock]

Maybe Congress should stop telling the auto makers how to make cars...

You're absolutely right about that, of course. The popularity of the SUV is a direct result of the fact that Congress defined exempt vehicles in such a way that large sedans and wagons fell under CAFE, but SUVs did not. People still want large powerful vehicles, but now SUVs are the only choice available that has a large engine and spacious interior at a reasonable price.

If I had a choice between a Ford Explorer and an updated version of the old Caprice Classic Wagon, the one with the third row seat and cool middle skylight, I'd go with the wagon in a heartbeat. Those things could hold a stack of 4x8s with the hatch closed! I might even spring for the fake wood siding...

But nobody makes that car anymore. It was constructively outlawed under CAFE.

[gridlock]

I once bought a running Chevette for $120.00.

I wuz robbed...

[pageonetoo]

Why settle for just 8...

...Motor Trend's 2004 Sport/Utility of the Year Volkswagen Touareg is already a winner in our book, but it is about to gain a lot more momentum. VW quietly introduced the Touareg V10 TDI in Detroit, a German SUV late-comer with the output to shake Motor City. For naysayers who feel the V-6 model could use a bit more oomph, VW has overcompensated with a five-liter, 10-cylinder diesel engine that produces 310 hp and 553 lb-ft. This power raises the tow capacity to 7716 lbs and pegs the macho factor all the way to redline. EPA mileage figures are 17 city, 23 highway. The Touareg V10 TDI comes standard with a 4XMOTION permanent four-wheel drive with low-range gear and adaptive torque distribution, six-speed automatic transmission, and Electronic Stabilization Program with brake assist as well as Hill Descent and Climb Assist. Touareg V10 TDI will go on sale later this year starting at $57,800.

[blackie]

V8's sound better than 10 cylinder engines and diesel's suck, big time! :)

My Ford F-150 SVT Lightning has a supercharged 5.4L V8, that develops 425HP and gets 15mpg.

[pageonetoo]

I drive ford's... towncar, explorer, volvo wagon... also have multitude of 300zx's (t-top 2 seater, t-top 2+2, and a 2 seater cooupe race car...and a 280z in the driveway, that our 15 yr old daughter, and her mom, are rebuilding!! Oh, yeah, we also have a 450sel, a 77 beast, that goes and goes...If you want to see 4 cyl screamers, my wife has a chrysler conquest tsi, 87 model turbo beastie rice rocket, and a couple of isuzu turbo impulses... I drive them, she keeps them going!

I'll keep my fords! I drove the VW, tho, and whoa!!! The only thing better is a Porsche Cayenne!

[NationSoConceived]

It is wonderful to have to fill up a 10 gallon gas tank just once a month, on 40 miles a day's worth of commute.

Hang on here. A forty mile daily commute x 5 times per week =200 miles per week or 866 miles per month (4.3 weeks in avg month)excluding weekend driving. That comes out to x 86.6 mpg avg (866 divided by 10). Is that correct?

Sorry about that. I was playing fast and loose with the math. The Insight has a 10.6 gallon fuel tank, and according to my odometer (which I zeroed at every fill up) I would generally get about 600-700 miles between fill-ups. I don't usually fill up until the warning light comes on, which is aound the one gallon point. Assuming that I probably drive it down to the .6 gallon point by the time I do refuel, I've burned 10 gallons of gas. So, my mileage works out to be about 65 MPG. Which is not too shabby. This, of course, implies that I did fill it up more than once a month, at least some of the time.

For the mathematically inclined: ((600 Mi + 700 Mi)/2)/(10.6 Gal - .6 Gal) = 65 Mi/Gal

I won't claim that that is a scientifically accurate study, as it is only based on my observations, and my driving.

This is actually better than average mileage for these machines. Of course, I did kind of turn it into a game. "How efficiently can I drive?" There are clubs of enthusiasts for the insight with all sorts of helpful and not so helpful tips on how to get the best mileage possible out of the car. They range from very obvious stuff like upping the tire pressure to arcane (and in my opinion, dangerous) things like using Bernoulli's principle to pull the car along in the air behind a Semi. I never tried that one. Theres something very very wrong about tailgating a truck in that little car...

In any case, people boast about their mileage. One guy claimed that by using a number of factors, he was able to get the car up to 90 MPG.

It is certainly an interesting breed of automobile enthusiasts. Very much into car performance, but not in the traditional sense.

Some links: http://www.insightcentral.net/
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/44027/page017.html

[johnandrhonda]

"was spending $60/week on gas...now he is spending $20 every other week" I don't believe it, check your math...his hybrid is getting six times the mileage of his previous vehicle? He gets 40 mpg now where he got 7 mpg before?