[MEG33]

"Here is an unhappy fact: Certain authoritarians and tyrants whose leadership is illegitimate and unjust have functioned in history as--ugly imagery coming--garbage-can lids on their societies. They keep freedom from entering, it is true. But when they are removed, the garbage--the freelance terrorists, the grievance merchants, the ethnic nationalists--pops out all over. Yes, freedom is good and to be strived for. But cleaning up the garbage is not pretty. And it sometimes leaves the neighborhood in an even bigger mess than it had been."

She disagrees with the President and here is the interesting point. Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

[Niks]

"She disagrees with the President and here is the interesting point. Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants."

Yes. And the problem with that theory is that it wasn't the Iranians or North Korean citizens who drove those planes into our buildings. It was Saudi citizens, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc. Citizens of our "allies" and "friends". Keeping the lid on these people has only made them worse. Isn't that the real problem?

[syriacus]

But cleaning up the garbage is not pretty. And it sometimes leaves the neighborhood in an even bigger mess than it had been."

Dear Peggy: I guess you must have a maid, nowdays, and you have become out of touch with what we ordinary folks know.

If garbage is not disposed of, the pile grows and vermin spread disease.

[.cnI redruM]

>>>Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

I'm afraid I don't buy that point. I can't think of anything that got better or more peaceful because we let Saddam Hussein stay in power 10 extra years. There's a limit to how many wars a ten division army can effectively fight and win over a prolonged time-frame, I'll grant Peggy that one, but I think that's a commentary on the rather poor decision we made regarding the size of our armed forces, rather than a knock on Pres. Bush's desire to liberate countries enslaved by a dictator.

[Ditto]

But when they are removed, the garbage--the freelance terrorists, the grievance merchants, the ethnic nationalists--pops out all over.

Makes it sound as if the garbage does not stink as long as we hold our noses. The lid always comes off and chaos is alway one of the potential results. Why not have a plan for removing the lid and avoiding the chaos?

[Petronski]

"Here is an unhappy fact: Certain authoritarians and tyrants whose leadership is illegitimate and unjust have functioned in history as--ugly imagery coming--garbage-can lids on their societies. They keep freedom from entering, it is true. But when they are removed, the garbage--the freelance terrorists, the grievance merchants, the ethnic nationalists--pops out all over. Yes, freedom is good and to be strived for. But cleaning up the garbage is not pretty. And it sometimes leaves the neighborhood in an even bigger mess than it had been."

I'm stunned with that quote. Ronald Reagan would NOT approve.

I'm done with Peggy Noonan. If she is to be at all appealing to me in the future, it will have to be after some kind of redemptive moment and new birth.

[DCPatriot]

Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

No...some people refuse to accept the results of an election or the validity of the outcome and need to be dispatched with extreme prejudice...in very large numbers.

[Enterprise]

"Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants."

I don't disagree, although "some people" have yet had the chance to self govern. I offer these points.

To do nothing is to let the present regimes continue using the unlimited billions of dollars from oil profits for funding terrorists who will absolutely commit greater and more widespread acts of terror against the United States and its allies.

Further, to do nothing risks the "free flow" of oil which can not only bring down our entire economy, but the economies of all nations. A world in crisis, nations in chaos.

My view of the President's message is pretty stark:

"Democratize the Middle East or perish!"

[RinaseaofDs]

Ah yes. Some poor folk are simply allergic to freedom. I can't believe she said this. Here's her excuse for wanting to keep Hussein in power. Better to rape a thousand Iraqi women and stay up nights worrying when the next attack is going to be, than to deal with it directly as we have.

We've done it her way for almost 100 years. What specifically did it by us? What's her model state in this scenario, Saudi Arabia?

[Eva]

I didn't read her come back, but if she really said that some people have no capacity for self rule and must be led for authoritarian means, she has exposed her previous criticism as superficial, supercilious and pedantic because that is not what she said in the first piece.

Peggy is anti-war, obviously. But why is this the first that we are hearing this?

[TheDon]

Peggy has a major disagreement with the President on this point. I disagree with Peggy on this too. I've seen many people who share this kind of neo-racist belief. The belief that certain 'people' don't want freedom and democracy. I guess we must simply agree to disagree on this point.

[Lancey Howard]

She disagrees with the President and here is the interesting point. Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

Sometimes the best you can hope for is a benevolent dictatorship. Like what Jordan and Saudi Arabia have, more or less.

[GVnana]

Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

Good find. I used to believe exactly the same thing. The Bush Doctrine forced me to rethink that position. I realized, ironically, that notion came out of my liberal college education! Forwarding American precepts of individual rights = bad hegemonic imperialist.

Glad we have conservative intellectuals who lead me to the light. Too bad Peggy hasn't seen it.

[Kozak]

Some people have no capacity for self governance and must be led by authoritarian means or tyrants.

That was the popular opinion about blacks, and women in the 19th century. Seem to recall something in the Declaration about being "endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights...."