How to talk to an atheist (and you must)

Townhall.com ^ | January 24, 2005 | Mike S. Adams

[7thson]

When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.

[DannyTN]

where?

Either way, the point was that the signer of the Declaration of Independence was Congregationalist, not Diest, which you falsely claimed was the largest religion.

[mugs99]

verifiable history

Can you provide a source for that verifiable history? If I wanted to find the historical Jesus, and I do, where would I look?

He performed miracles in front of multitudes. Surely someone mentioned him somewhere. Can you direct me to that?

Can you give me the date of his birth?
How about the date of his death?

What was his name? I mean his name in the local lingo of those times. The name I could search for in ancient texts. The name that Yuza down at the Olde Incense Shoppe would have called him.

Can you provide a verifiable source for any of that information?
...

[DannyTN]

"Can you provide a source for that verifiable history? If I wanted to find the historical Jesus, and I do, where would I look?"

You can look to the gospels. They were written by his disciples after Jesus's death, but while there were still many people in the early church who had followed Jesus and who would have been able to dispute the writings if they didn't match what they had seen and observed.

But you can also look to secular writings.

Historical secular references to Jesus

Historical Jesus

Jesus: Historical Evidence

[mugs99]

We don't know what religion that signer was...and the point is that the source you provided is not data compiled from historical records as that page would lead one to believe.

I found the compilers notes from the page you posted. It's there, just follow the references. It's a spiffy authoritative looking page, but if you search the source you find that it is not unbiased.

I will grant you that unbiased info is as hard to find as hens teeth, but that page glares fake like a neon sign.
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[mugs99]

You can look to the gospels

The Gospels contain no verifiable evidence of a historical Jesus.

Your Links:
Historical secular references to Jesus

A lot of interesting history here, but only two references to Jesus. Tacitus writing about Nero punishing Christians for the burning of Rome is not evidence for a historical Jesus.
The first is from the Jewish Talmud compiled between 70 to 200AD:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, `He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."
Although this does give a name, Yeshu, there is no mention of a crucifixion or resurrection....Is this Jesus?

The second is two paragraphs that reference Jesus from Antiquities, of the Testimonium Flavianum by Josephus. This wasn't written by Josephus during the time of Jesus, it was written by Eusebius, a Christian, in the fourth century. All Christian copies of Josephus come from this compilation. None of the pre Eusebius copies of Josephus contain references to Jesus.

The other two links are a book review with index and a collection of Bible stories. Neither offer any evidence of a historical Jesus.
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[DannyTN]

They are evidence. And obviously references to Christians, are a pretty good indicator that at least followers of Christ existed.

Try proving that Plato or Sacrates existed by the same standard.

Josephus referenced Jesus in two separate works. Almost all scholars consider Josephus's mention of Jesus in the "Jewish Wars" to be authentic. There is a debate over the reference in "Antiquities" because it calls Jesus the Messiah, something an unconverted Jew would not likely have done. But even then it's thought Josephus mentioned Jesus in the original, but that the reference may have been modified later.

Josephus on Jesus

Josephus

[DannyTN]

You might find this link interesting. I haven't reviewed the whole site. But this particular page lists 50 old testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. And it has links to even more. #6 has a funny typo. Apparently this site was put up by someone south of the border.

"http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm"

[Ready2go]

Oh MM...I, too, had a NDE and what a awesome experience it was for me. The Beautiful white light was indescribable.

While the Dr's were all busy trying to get me back...I was at such peace enjoying the love I was feeling from above and watching the "Light". No fear at all!

When I was stable the first thing I did was to tell everyone about the light and the peace and joy I felt.

I'm sorry you didn't get to see it.

Which brings up a good question. If so many believe the "beautiful lights" are caused by lack of oxygen or other physical changes in the mind and body why didn't you see it too?

[mugs99]

Your first link references an 11th century Greek translation of the 4th century Eusebius Christian compilation.
Your second link is just another extract from the 4th century Christian compilation.

Both links are Evangelical Christian webpages. You limit me to non Gnostic sources, yet you expect me to accept Evangelical Christian sources. That's kind of a double standard Dan.

Almost all scholars consider Josephus's mention of Jesus in the "Jewish Wars" to be authentic.

I know of no reputable scholar who believes that. Could you link me to one? And please, not another Evangelical.
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[Chunga]

I have no problem with anyone encouraging me to believe things contrary to what I believe. I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss such important matters with anyone showing the least amount of interest in such things.

Why do you assume I'd be less patient and courteous than anyone?

[Conservative til I die]

The difference being that the religious bumper sticker owner probably was not out to offend people. The atheist most likely was.

[Conservative til I die]

Although I am a very lapsed Catholic, you pretty much sum up what I believe. Although "agnostic" is probably a better term. Also, I might be something of a Deist, depending on what I just read, but officially, I claim publicly to be an athiest on religous issues.

You sound all messed up inside. For reals.

[Paradox]

I might be!

In the public arena, I am an atheist for the most part. On a personal level, I am not. I never use religion to argue a political point. I don't believe I need to. This wins me great points against Liberals who assume all conservatives are "bible thumpers".