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Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean'
FoxNews ^ | 1/23/05 | Unknown

Posted on 01/23/2005 6:45:16 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants

LOS ANGELES — Hydrogen-fueled cars have been hailed as the future of transportation — clean, safe and propelled by a power source whose only by-products are air and water.

[snip]

The problem, critics say, is that the technology that makes the fuel of the future generates just as much pollution as the gasoline-powered vehicles we drive right now.

[snip]

Extracting useful quantities of hydrogen from water requires a massive amount of energy — energy that typically comes from burning oil or coal.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; environment; envirowackos; fuelcell; hydrogen; nofreelunch; transportation
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To: stboz

And the new nuke plants are far more reliable than the older models. They require less maint. They are modular in design so they are easier to build. Some designs don't even require containment domes. Uranium is in great supply and prices have come way down. Does anyone remember the old ConEd commercials in NY. The hot dogs in Shea Stadium were cooked by electricity coming for nuclear power plants. I always thought the non-Nuked dogs in Yankee Stadium were better. So what the hell are we waiting for. More Nukes Now!


61 posted on 01/23/2005 8:53:14 AM PST by appeal2
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To: stboz

And the new nuke plants are far more reliable than the older models. They require less maint. They are modular in design so they are easier to build. Some designs don't even require containment domes. Uranium is in great supply and prices have come way down. Does anyone remember the old ConEd commercials in NY. The hot dogs in Shea Stadium were cooked by electricity coming for nuclear power plants. I always thought the non-Nuked dogs in Yankee Stadium were better. So what the hell are we waiting for. More Nukes Now!


62 posted on 01/23/2005 8:53:16 AM PST by appeal2
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To: Blood of Tyrants

BTTT


63 posted on 01/23/2005 8:55:03 AM PST by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Blood of Tyrants

How about GeoThermal Energy?


64 posted on 01/23/2005 8:55:22 AM PST by Samurai_Jack (ride out and confront the evil!)
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To: Flavius
...financial support for the project was suddenly withdrawn by J. P. Morgan when it became apparent that such a worldwide power project couldn't be metered and charged for.

More anti-capitalist drivel. You can't meter the sunlight, wind, or earth; but you can make a profit leasing the equipment to utilize it.

Assuming, of course, that this scheme works in the first place!

65 posted on 01/23/2005 8:56:12 AM PST by JimRed (Investigate, overturn and prosecute vote fraud in the State of Washington !)
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To: TC Rider
LOL, by enviro standards a Duracell battery should be the perfect power source, no byproducts.

Not in use, but in manufacture and disposal.

66 posted on 01/23/2005 8:59:05 AM PST by JimRed (Investigate, overturn and prosecute vote fraud in the State of Washington !)
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To: kinghorse
Exactly right. It moves the point of pollutant emissions from a distributed system to a single points system.

Then net change in emissions will be a function conversion efficiency (fossil fuels to hydrogen) defined as the net increase or decrease for a given fuel/energy requirement.
67 posted on 01/23/2005 9:04:10 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Memos on Bush Are Fake but Accurate". NYTimes)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Secondary emissions are not the only problem. Unless one uses liquid oxygen the by products of hydrogen combustion are not just water vapor. Because air is approximately 80% nitrogen we will face some of the same pollution problems as fossil fuels specifically Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) and Ozone (O3).

Lastly, the efficiency at which molecular H2 can be produced may not be economically feasible. The hydrogen compounds must be cracked to produce free hydrogen. This requires a significant energy input. Only a percentage of this will be recovered when the hydrogen is combusted.

68 posted on 01/23/2005 9:17:49 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: JimRed
LOL, by enviro standards a Duracell battery should be the perfect power source, no byproducts.

Not in use, but in manufacture and disposal.

My point exactly. For that matter, by the 'hydrogen' standard a lead acid battery would be perfect.

Hydrogen is like a battery in that it is a potentially good energy storage medium.

69 posted on 01/23/2005 10:03:22 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants; abbi_normal_2; Ace2U; adam_az; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; alphadog; amom; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.
70 posted on 01/23/2005 10:04:10 AM PST by farmfriend ( Congratulations. You are everything we've come to expect from years of government training.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

" You mean solar cells that cost several thousand dollars per kilowatt to manufacture and erect and doesn't work very well on cloudy days and deosn't work at all at night? "

Spoil-sport. They work fine, if you determine your average load and provide TEN times that amount of battery storage, along with FOUR times the cell capacity - gotta charge up those batteries) plus some form of backup for that THIRD cloudy day and beyond.


71 posted on 01/23/2005 10:28:52 AM PST by MainFrame65
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To: farmfriend

BTTT!!!!!!


72 posted on 01/23/2005 10:30:29 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: seppel
"Currently, the cost of producing hydrogen fuel is greater than the value of the energy it delivers. Production entails either electrolysis in water or extraction of hydrogen from fossil fuels like natural gas."

You could have made the same arguement for floating oil platforms we have in the gulf today. Do you have any idea how many Billions they cost, apiece? The problems they have with drifting, weather, drilling and transporting oil was said to far outweigh the cost of the oil they would produce. Yet, here we are.

SlashDot had a great series on Plastic based solar cells that are over 700% more efficient than the silicon solar cells we all know and love. The Plastic Solar cells not only work with visible light, they work with infra-red light; so cloudy day or not, they produce juice.

We also have wind, and we also have other sources than water that can liberate Hydrogen. Oils are hydrocarbons, and we are aready making progress on fuel cells which can extract and use the hydrogen from hydrocarbon sources such as vegetable oil. If you want something done, ya gotta do a good bit of digging first. They said man would never walk on the moon too.

73 posted on 01/23/2005 11:09:14 AM PST by Hodar (With Rights, comes Responsibilities. Don't assume one, without assuming the other.)
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To: Flavius
The Earth could be pumped with electricity and anyone on its surface could remove it by simply placing a wire into the ground. This energy could be withdrawn in unlimited amounts for unlimited uses, free for all the world's people!

Only English majors believe crap like this.

74 posted on 01/23/2005 11:14:03 AM PST by Dan Evans
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To: Servant of the 9
"... flaming liberals ..."

"Flaming liberal" is what you get when a car full of hydrogen fuel wrecks.

75 posted on 01/23/2005 11:19:21 AM PST by JoeGar
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To: Blood of Tyrants

bump


76 posted on 01/23/2005 11:24:22 AM PST by investigateworld (Babies= A sure sign He hasn't given up on mankind!)
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To: Servant of the 9

Thanks for injecting some scientific know-how into the fantasy world of hydrogen powered things. Coal is a dirty source of energy. What ignoramusi.


77 posted on 01/23/2005 11:26:50 AM PST by The Westerner
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To: The_Reader_David
Looking 20 years into the future...

If all of the cars on the road today around the world had water vapor emissions would it rain more?

78 posted on 01/23/2005 11:30:21 AM PST by Major_Risktaker
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To: Samurai_Jack

Great if you happen to live on or near a volcanic vent.


79 posted on 01/23/2005 11:40:47 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (God is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: raybbr

Induction motors still have a complete path of current flow in the coil on the rotor.

However, it is still not "free". You simply CANNOT draw power out of something without putting it in somewhere else.


80 posted on 01/23/2005 11:44:27 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (God is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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