Posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:32 PM PST by naturalman1975
IT was one of those extremely rare moments when I found myself agreeing with John Howard. Asked what he thought of Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore's reported plans to make Sydney's Christmas celebrations low-key and generic, the Prime Minister slammed them as "silly", "ridiculous" and "political correctness from central casting".
Out of sensitivity for a multicultural society, Moore was reported to have said she did not want the celebrations "to push any one religious belief".
In fact, Moore had said nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary: the council is increasing its Christmas celebration spending this year by 50per cent. The words were spoken by Jeff Fisher, chief executive of fast-food chain Oporto following news that the chain had banned a nativity display from its franchise in Hornsby in northern Sydney. Media had put the words in the wrong mouth, but Howard's assessment of them remained true.
Every Christmas it seems we go through this farce. Last year, Stonnington Council in Melbourne removed the word Christmas from its celebrations and prevented speakers at a carols night from quoting the Bible. Some kindergartens and daycare centres have stopped having Christmas parties, instead having end-of-year or fairy parties.
All this, it seems, is being done to include Australia's religious and cultural minorities. This is supposed to foster social harmony and tolerance.
But it doesn't. It does exactly the opposite. When Channel Seven's Sunrise recently ran an interactive segment on the issue, a common theme in the responses of viewers legitimately aggrieved by this emasculation of Christmas was anger towards minority groups -- especially Muslims -- who were cast as cultural warriors against the majority.
Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but it is ridiculous to suspect they are behind this absurd trend. Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam and, accordingly, we are the least likely to be offended by other religious groups celebrating his birth. An anti-Christmas campaign is more consistent with aggressive atheism than any Islamic imperative.
In fact, I know no member of any religious minority, Muslim or otherwise, who asked for or even wants this. In my experience, religious minorities are far more concerned that their right to religious expression is respected and protected. That, surely, is a right belonging no less to the majority than to minorities.
Driving Christmas underground only erodes this treasured Australian norm and that is far more troubling to me than any Christmas celebration. I find the idea of restraining religious expression substantially more offensive than I find any nativity display. The impoverishment of Christmas is done more on behalf of religious minorities than by them.
This is where political correctness loses the plot; what purports to inspire tolerance instead inspires hostility and intolerance. Diverse, vibrant and tolerant societies are created by allowing eclectic cultural and religious expressions, celebrations included, to flourish. You don't achieve that by surrendering a culture, replacing it with bland meaninglessness.
Denying the Christianity in Christmas or, worse, doing away with it altogether helps no one. This is not multiculturalism. It is anti-culturalism.
Waleed Aly, a Melbourne lawyer, is a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria executive.
When Buckley said that he was involved in a war with the John Birch Society. when the dust had settled Bill was standing there and the Birchers were limping off the field well and truly beaten and headed for the fever swamp where they belong. It was a big step in bringing the conservative movement into the mainstream of politics here. It's something the John Birch Society has never forgiven him for.
Ah, now I see.
Thanks for informing me, Valin.
Well, if it was the Birch Society that was sticking in the other poster's craw, that's one thing.
A much bigger slur against conservatives, however, is the one that claims we are responsible for the injustices towards blacks.
The Birch Society is no big deal, in comparison to that.
Thanks again.
"radical Islam" or "Islamic fundamentalism" of the new political type is in fact a bastard modernization of authentic Islam"
A "bastard"(ization) is what it is.
Maybe you could tell me what exactly the real face of Islam is.
Like you and other thinking people I have a REAL problem with the left always calling me a bigot because I'm conservative. A cople of months ago I had some dolt pretty much call all "right-wingers" bigots. I asked him to look up and see just what party Bull Conners belonged to, and how Fullbright voted on the civil rights bills in the 60s, what party provided the votes to put these bills over the top. The silence was deafening. That's not to say we on the right don't have our share of idiots and moron, but they are waaaay out of the mainstream, and keep a very low profile.
That was just a little background on the times.
I know there are people here who like to dump on Buckley but he is one of my heros.
Remember we're talking about 1.3 Billion people.
Does Islam have problems ABSOLUTLY, but there are those inside Islam who are working to solve these problems.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. I asked someone to tell me about the real face of Islam. If you know, by all means, tell me.
You are confusing Atheists,
people who are religiously
anti-religious zealots and
atheists, who are people who
do not think there is a deity
of any kind.
Atheists despise Christmas
and anything Christian.
atheists either celebrate
Christmas with the rest of
their family or they ignore it.
I think maybe the term "Evangelical Atheists" ought to be coined.
Nu convert wrote ["radical Islam" or "Islamic fundamentalism" of the new political type is in fact a bastard modernization of authentic Islam"
A "bastard"(ization) is what it is].
So this is the authentic Islam as I read from Quran aka The Book of Jihad -
4:89 if they turn back (to enmity aka turn away from Islam) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
4:91 If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
(By the way offering peace in Islam means Surrendering to Islam. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive. They are called qazwah (raid, ambush, sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. The one defensive war, 'ditch' was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism 'jihad' will continue until the West "offers peace". This was made clear by Bin Laden.)
5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
(Note: So in other words whoever or whatever country opposes Islam or Islamic Law or its principles are at war with Islam. And as you can see, the punishment prescribed for such opposition to Islam is well prescribed in the Book of Jihad).
So Jesus is revered in Quran huh? Is this how He is revered? By denying that Christians and Jews are not eligible into heaven? look at the following verse -
5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
8:55 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
If a Muslim refuses to fight in a Jihad against an infidel or a non-Muslim or its government, this is what Allah will do.
9:39 If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.
9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
113 It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.
123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the infidels who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Is this the reason the Islamic fundamentalists blow up the non-Muslims, Christians and Jews?
28:86 Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers.
33:1 Keep thy duty to Allah and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Is this the reason Islamists aka Muslims cannot obey or help non-Muslim governments convict a fellow Islamist when that fellow Islamist is blatantly guilty?
So tell me how can someone modernize Islam? because if they try to modernize then they are disobeying what is commanded in the Book of Jihad as mentioned in the above verses. So to make long story short, there is nothing as modern Islam or moderate islam. All Islam is radical.
Nuconvert, now I hope you will not say, "Gee, you are taking the verses out of context"? What is the context if the context of the Book of Jihad is not Jihad aka fight of a Muslim (against non-Muslism/infidels)?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
"Why on earth would you wish a Muslim or Jew or pagan or atheist such a greeting? Makes no sense at all."
Because that way they know that you wish them well, and hope for them to gain blessings? Peace on Earth, good will to men, all that stuff?
So wish them well. What on earth does that have to do with wishing them a good holiday which they don't believe in.
" I hope you have a nice time celebrating the birth of a man you reject". HUH?
on a and hope for them to gain blessings?
Good, go hope. And pray for them too while your at it. And tell them you are praying for them if you want.
But don't be surprised if they look at you funny when you tell them you are praying for them to a God they say doesn't exist. Makes perfect sense,,,,HUH?
Peace on Earth, good will to men, all that stuff?
Good stuff, has nothing to do with Merry Christmas though.
While your at it, don't set your goals so low. Peace is the absence of conflict. Why not wish the world harmony?
"First of all, it is NOT bigotry, prejudice, racism (these terms are always trotted out to silence the opposition) to reject islam,"
If you had stopped there, I'd agree with you. The rest of that statement, however, makes a lie of the first part.
What is going on is that some Muslims are choosing to be the sort of people you are talking about rejecting. Some are trying to be the kind I know are out there, too. Good people who happen to think God's name is pronounced "Allah." There are more of that sort dying over in Iraq and Afghanistan right now than of our people dying to help them be able to make the choice.
Hate the Islamofacists, if you like, although I couldn't recommend it. It's a waste of time to hate locusts, and tornados and such. Deal with them as best you can, and go on with life.
My personal belief is that Muslims are wrong about God and who the prophets are, but I feel the same way about most other Christians, too. Mohammed might have been a prophet, but if so, his message died with him. Some of his followers hijacked the leadership, and it's been downhill from there.
"Islam as it is practiced is antithetical to assimilation with the West."
As it is practiced by whom? Osama? Yep, you're absolutely right. See my previous comment about Mohammed's followers. On the other hand, there are people who follow Mohammed who are not the kind of scum Osama is. Muslims are like Christians in that respect. We have good ones and bad ones and in-between ones. I'd suggest that helping out the good and in-betweens makes more sense than lumping them in with Osama, both in the short and long term.
In the meantime, have a blessed and merry Christmas.
Oh, so you are saying that they really didn't mean that stuff when they wrote the Koran? Tell me what they DID mean?
Excerpts from:Islamic Extremism: A Viable Threat to U.S. National Security
An Open Forum at the U.S. Department of State, January 7, 1999
Transcript - Presentation by Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani
(updated)
"We know in Islam Prophet Muhammad, sall’ allahu alayhi wa sallam, mentioned in many places in Holy Qur'an things like there is no compulsion in religion, that people are free to take any religion they like. These extremists are not thinking with the Holy verses of Qur'an. Instead they are trying to impose their extremist ideas upon everyone, Muslim and non-Muslim. It has become a struggle for governments to reconcile or compromise. There is no way; you might compromise with a moderate Muslim, with a Muslim that is living happily around the world, but you cannot compromise, you cannot build a bridge with an extremist. He's never going to agree with you, because he thinks – this is their thinking, there is nothing else – that they have a duty and they have to deliver the message that either you follow us or you are under our attack. They are declaring war against anyone who will not go with them. This is why they are against their government, for example, in Saudi Arabia, they are against their government in Egypt, they are against their government in Jordan, they are against their government Syria, they are against their government in Pakistan, they are against their government in the Caucasus, and in Chechnya, and in all these countries, because they are infiltrating inside and indoctrinating people with their new ideas and new method.
As we see it from inside, from within – because I don’t want to go into too much definition and explanation of Islam – what we are seeing as Muslims is that extremism became more of a business than a message because it involves drugs, and drugs are not allowed in Islam. Planting Opium and Cocaine and Hashish, Hash, is not allowed in Islam. Womanizing is not allowed in Islam, drinking is not allowed in Islam. We see these extremists are planting Opium, are planting Cocaine, and are selling this, justifying their acts as Muslims to reestablish and reform Islam around the world but they are committing all kinds of un-Islamic acts and un-Islamic behavior.
Recently they found in London, between London and France and all that area in Western Europe, that there is a big network of women that one of the very famous Arabic newspapers – either al Wasat or al Watan al Arabi – revealed in a big report two or three months ago. They found a network run by Muslim women who, during the day, are covered from top to bottom and, during the night, have dates. They are dating high officials in many countries around the world to take the information from them and to give it to the extremists. We have to ask ourselves: is this Islamic or un-Islamic? If it is Islamic we cannot see it in any verse of Holy Qur'an or any narration of Prophet. It is un-Islamic. So on what basis are they saying they are working under the name of Islam? So we see that now it is more a business and more a struggle, a fight, openly between extremism and America.
It is completely obvious to anyone who considers the matter and the situation. You will find that it is an open fight between the West and the Extremists. In the last report that we printed in our Muslim Magazine – which is going to come in January, after one week (it went to print) – we show how extremism evolved and how many extremist groups have formed a coalition among themselves although they differ in ideology. They differ in belief but because a coalition benefits everyone, they formed an alliance. We mention in the Magazine, and according to our sources, that bin Laden has asked Hezbollah, Hamas, and Jihad al-Islami, and Ga'amat al Islamiyyi, to form a coalition and he was able to bring them together under one network in order to work together, although each one differs from the other in his point of view.
So that's what is going on under the name of Islam, but Islam itself is innocent of such kinds of actions. As we represent Muslims, and we have on our board 157 international scholars from around the world –they are on our advisory committee, our board of advisors – we condemn all kinds of extremism wherever it is. We want to tell people to be careful, that something major might hit quickly...
Moreover, what we are interested in in the United States. I’d like to say that there have been many non-profit organizations established in the United States whose job is only to collect money and to send it, as you know – most of you know – to send it to extremists outside the United States. This is a big dilemma that is facing us here, because you don't know where the money is going, and it is more than hundreds of millions of dollars that have been sent to extremist parties in the Middle East and the Far East, as well as Afghanistan and the Caucasus now. Our sources say that many, many millions of dollars have been collected and sent. They send it under humanitarian aid, but it doesn't go to humanitarian aid. They say that it is to help the people of this country or that country, and they show on television and on their flyers that they are delivering it to help homeless people or poor people. Yes, some of it will go to homeless people and poor people but the majority, 90 per cent of it, will go into the black markets in these countries and buying weapon arsenals.
I know this from my home country of Lebanon where we used to receive a lot of aid from the United States and United Nations. As soon as the aid arrived in Lebanon, you could see a little bit go to the public and the rest would be sold in the black market. For a box that costs more than $100, you can go and buy it in the black market for less than $20. All this money, that came under humanitarian aid, they resell so you cannot trace it, they go back and buy weapons with it to fight and to spread extremism under the name of Islam.
The second issue that United States has to look on within, for security, is the fact that there are many Muslim organizations that claim to speak on behalf of the Muslim community but that in reality are not moderate, but extremist. They hijacked the mike, or they were elected because they are good speakers, but they give a wrong idea about Islam. Always we see them in the media criticizing and complaining and sending action alerts and media alerts and showing people that we do not accept this or we reject that.
Like, for example, with the recent issue of Iraq. The Islamic Supreme Council sent a statement that there are victims in Iraq and there is bloodshed in Iraq, but it is a matter of national security to stop Saddam Hussein from running the country, and it is not a Muslim issue. When everyone was saying from the Muslim community that it is a Muslim issue, we stood fast and we stood alone to say that it is not a Muslim issue but that it is a political issue. Saddam Hussein is a communist in his background. He is of the socialist Ba'ath party, which does not believe in religion. It is secular and does not believe in religion. Anyone who has a beard or anyone wears a turban will be put in prison within a day. This is the mentality of this kind of regime. So it is not a Muslim issue, it's a political issue. It's a Muslim issue when you are hurting the people, and you are hurting a whole community as if we were to say that we are fighting the Iraqi people. But the policy was not to fight the Iraqi people. The policy was to fight a tyranny that was running Iraq. That's a big difference. So we stood up and we said this and we have received a lot of criticism from the Muslim community. But we want to advise the American community and we want to advise our government, our congressmen, that there is something big going on and people are not understanding it.
The third major problem that is now going on is that you have many mosques around the United States and there is not an organized government or policy to look over the mosques like in Muslim countries where you cannot open a mosque by yourself, and you cannot open a charity by yourself. It has to be done according to the structure of the Islamic religion. That's why in the Muslim countries, you cannot find extremist ideology. As soon as you find the extremist ideology they kick them out and bring in traditional Islamic scholars. The extremist ideology comes from the street so the extremists don't know what they are talking about. So they form small circles in different homes or different basements or in different areas and they begin to brainwash the people. That's why we find this kind of movement is becoming big now, especially when the idea is that we have a struggle between us and the United States. "United States is not supporting us," "United States is supporting someone else," they find that United States is not supporting Afghanistan, as Congressman Rohrabacher said. The United States supported Pakistan, the United States supported Egypt, the United States supported PLO and the peace treaty, the United States supported Saudi Arabia, the United States supported Kuwait. The United States is supporting whomever they can, but sometimes it is out of reach that they can support everyone. So they cannot be blamed. The United States cannot be blamed for something that they cannot control.
The most dangerous thing that is going on now in these mosques, that has been sent upon these mosques around the United States – like churches they were established by different organizations and that is ok – but the problem with our communities is the extremist ideology. Because they are very active they took over the mosques; and we can say that they took over more than 80% of the mosques that have been established in the US. And there are more than 3000 mosques in the US.
So it means that the methodology or ideology of extremist has been spread to 80% of the Muslim population, but not all of them agree with it. But mostly the youth and the new generation do because they are students and they don't think except with their emotions and they are rebellious against their own leaders and government. This is the nature and psychology of human beings. When we are students in university or college we always fight the government, whether they are right or wrong, we have to attack the government. This is how they have been raised.
In this way we see that the extremist ideology, and this is the fourth danger, is beginning to spread very quickly into the universities through the national organizations, associations and clubs that they are establishing around the universities. Most of these clubs – they are Muslim clubs and the biggest is the national one – are being run mostly by the extremist ideology that they do not understand other than to say that America is wrong and they are right. You can find this on the Internet; you can find it everywhere on homepages and websites that they are against the United States. This is where we don't know how far it goes, and how far it is out of hand. This might affect the whole university system in the United States. Through the universities there will be the most danger. If the nuclear atomic warheads reach these universities, you don’t know what these students are going to do, because their way of thinking is brainwashed, limited and narrow-minded.
This is what I want to say to you, to present to you from within the Muslim community. We want to tell you that the Muslim community as a whole is innocent from whatever extremism and extremist ideology is being spread around the world. I don't know if there is time or not, but I know that to go in detail on how extremism evolved would take a lot of time, so I’ve tried to summarize as much as possible. I'd like to tell you that extremism , when a person has been brainwashed, demands that a person doesn't think, even if his father or his mother or his brother tells him to stop, he has to go to do what he has been asked to do. That's why there are 5000 suicide bombers being trained by bin Laden in Afghanistan who are ready to move to any part of the world and explode themselves. They are very sophisticated, they can buy anything they need locally and then put it on and explode themselves.
The problem of extremism is a big danger, and it can be solved if the West better understands Islam and builds bridges with the moderate Muslims, the traditional Muslims. This way, the Muslim community will eliminate the extremist threat from within. Otherwise, media, television, newspapers, and the leadership will not understand that there is a difference between extremists and Muslims. They have to begin a dialogue with Muslims from around the United States, and they have to have good advisors. What I am seeing, unfortunately, are those that are advising the media, or advising the government are not the moderate Muslims. Those whose opinion the government asks are the extremists themselves. Those that have been quoted in the newspapers, in the magazines, in the television, in the media are the extremists themselves. You are not hearing the authentic voice of Muslims, of moderate Muslims, but you are hearing the extremist voice of Muslims. That's why they are getting a wrong idea, because the extremists are very well supported, are very well affiliated with outside regimes that have sponsored them with billions of dollars to be active in the United States. They have been successful in doing that so the media does not listen except to them. I am even hearing that there are advisors to many congressmen, to many senators, to many organizations that are supporters of extremism and not moderate Muslims."
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