Posted on 11/24/2004 9:35:29 AM PST by bikepacker67
The following are excerpts from a discussion on wife beating on Qatar TV:
Dr. Ibrahim Elias, a lawyer: There is a difference between instilling discipline and aggression. Likewise, there is a difference between wife beating as a phenomenon, as a right, as a duty, or as a rule.
The phenomenon of beatings is widespread, but does religion support beatings? No, religion is a means of therapy. When Allah said in the Koran "and beat them," he didn't establish it as a rule, but as a means of therapy. Does a surgeon wield a knife from the outset in order to operate? No, if there is a gangrened limb, he amputates it, and if there is pain, he treats it efficiently. Islam refers to the issue of beating at the end of the verse. Before verse 34 in the Al-Nisa Sura in the Koran it says, "As for those from whom you fear disobedience…" "Disobedience" means a wife who refrains from obeying the man. The man is the guardian in his home, he is the judge, and of better judgment. When the wife rebels…
Moderator Muna Al-Shazli: The judge and of better judgment?
Elias: Indeed, he is of better judgment. The man is the judge in his home.
Al-Shazli: There are many cases of people, including Arabs, where the wife has better judgment.
Elias: I am speaking as a rule.
Al-Shazli: Excuse me for a moment, if we accept everything in our lives as a given, we will never make progress. I'm usually neutral but there is no one here to help me, so let's discuss this…
Elias: I am neutral…
Al-Shazli: You claim that as a rule, the man is of better judgment?
Elias: Allah claims this.
Iman Bibars, Director of the Womens' Development Society: I conducted a study in seven random areas in Cairo, in Palestine, Kuwait, Jordan, and Syria. I'd like to say that I found something that took me by surprise. I call it "a culture of the electricity cable." What does it mean? The men in the study did not know one another, but they all used to beat their wives with electricity cables. These cables are large and they would beat their wives.
Dr. Elias:Our civil law and Islamic law do not present wife-beating as a rule, but they deal with a situation where a man beats his wife. What should we do then? My friend, if you beat your wife and it's only light beatings in order to set things straight - that's it. We forgive light beatings. We tell him, "They are not considered an assault, but discipline."
Al-Shazli: What do you mean by light beatings? I'd very much like to know what they are…
Elias: Light beatings, from the legal aspect…
Al-Shazli: I'd like to say something. When a man treats his wife this way, when his hand is like an iron rod, she is hurt, physically and mentally… What kind of idea is this "light beatings"?
Elias: Light beatings are not excessive. They don't leave a mark, don't break bones, don't cause bleeding, and don't cause death. These are light beatings. With some women - nothing helps except beatings.
Bibars And with some men - nothing helps except beatings.
Elias:: For example, a man comes home from work and finds his wife watching TV. She doesn't even get up to make him food. He tells her once, twice, and asks again. If only once he would raise his voice and beat her, she would get up to prepare food for him and by the next day she'd be obedient. This will last for a week and when she forgets, he will remind her. Let's admit it, the woman was created from a crooked rib.
I would like to send a message from here: The wife must speak quietly and she must carry out all her duties toward her husband and family. She must not give her husband the chance to beat her, and if he has already beaten her, she must treat him in a way that will not cause him to repeat it, so the beatings won't become a habit.
You are actually hilarious.
(1) You post a completely unattributed quote from an undisclosed source as some kind of authority.
(2) The Sephardim adhere to the Shulchan Arukh which does not permit wifebeating.
(3) Your source says, interestingly, that the Jewish aversion to wifebeating in Europe derives from the more enlightened attitude of surrounding Christians while the alleged Jewish permissiveness toward wifebeating in the Near East derives from the primitive attitudes of Muslims. That kind of contradicts your usual line on the relative superiority of the three religions.
(4) You amusingly refer to the frum ruling allowing the divorce of a barren wife in your earlier post as an example of the allegedly abusive attitude of the frum, even though you condemned the traditional Christian ban on divorce as a recipe for unhappiness.
You have an uncanny knack for being wrong about everything.
The rabbis of Morocco, Algeria etc. did condone wife beating... After all in Ashkenaz, poligamy was forbidden which is allowed by the Tanakh... This is part of the Oral law and the making of Torah by the ravbbis...
The fact that you are ignorant of the real facts don't make them not true... The fact that your hatred of Islam blinds you isn't my fault at all, only yours!
I love Judaism. I learned everything that I know about how to be a proper wife and mother from Judaism and it works. Wish I could convert.
Rambam (Ishut 21:10):
Any wife who refrains from doing a labor among the labors that she is required to do, they force her ("kofin otah") and she does it, even with a whip.
So you say. You've adduced no sources.
After all in Ashkenaz, poligamy was forbidden which is allowed by the Tanakh...
Not everything permitted to the patriarchs in the TaNaKh is permitted to others. Would Jews of this generation be allowed to set up altars at Beth-El instead of the Temple Mount? Of course not. The Oral Torah is the authoritative interpretation of TaNaKh in Judaism, not Pitiricus.
This is part of the Oral law and the making of Torah by the ravbbis...
If you think rabbonim made the Torah instead of Hashem, I'm not sure if you're clear on what Judaism is.
The fact that you are ignorant of the real facts don't make them not true...
If they were facts, you could source them. Here's a real fact: the Shulchan Arukh, the gold standard in Sephardic halakhah, does not allow for wifebeating.
Until you can find a passage in the Shulchan which blesses wifebeating, Koran-style, we're left with just your unreliable assertions.
The fact that your hatred of Islam blinds you isn't my fault at all, only yours!
My distaste for this Satanic death cult is hardly blind. I witnessed 9/11 in person with my own eyes. I have seen Islam in all its "glory" with my eyes wide open.
"Can you imagine someone saying, of a passage from The Bible, that "God claims this"?
Well........since you ask? Not sure God was referring specifically to "judgement", but He was not silent, either?
1 Timothy 2
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
And-----
Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
The fact that Islamics actually have a DEBATE on this topic is truly instructional.
Nice try.
However, a wife does not have plural husbands ("they").
The "they" does not refer to a husband, it refers to the public enforcers of the halakhah, the agents of the beit din, who may prescribe physical punishments, such as flogging, to Jews who cause scandal in the community.
Putting aside the fact that the Mishneh Torah of the RamBam does not hold the same authority as the Shulchan Arukh of the HaMechaber, it is clear that this opinion does not authorize a husband to take it upon himself to do violence to his wife. In fact, it assumes that he has no such authority.
BTTT
I would take death for slamming a frying pan upside the head of any man who thought he was going to beat me over submitting myself to such nonsense. I will NOT be treated as a lesser human. I am fearfully and wonderfully made by a loving Creator whose plan for me exceeds that of any man. But, you are correct. We, as a nation, need to wake up!
Big strong men can be SUCH a turn-on! (ROFL!!!)
This is a direct admission of the phoniness of the moslem god "allah."
If he was a real god, he wouldn't have to have puny mankind fight his battles for him!
(1) If the United States can be tied into it somehow, then that's the reason why. This is mostly used to defend suicide bombers, 9/11, etc. We're not under the United States's heel, so who are we to judge just how far these poor victims are pushed to the edges?
(2) If they can't tie it to the USA, like in this instance, they trot out the tired and false "Yeah, Muslims aren't so great now, but they're 1000 times better than how Christians used to be" argument. I saw this argument being used to defend Muslims' animosity towards Jews.
And as someone noted earlier on this thread, if we could just "feel" their pain and "understand" why they attacked us on 9/11, then we would be safe and the world would be better off. Yeah, right, and we'd get attacked again. Especially if someone like Jimmy Carter were president.
It is obviously because of our principles of equal rights that the Islamic world is terrified. All those smucky wife-beaters would be in jail in our society.
President Bush should read this.
My wife PREFERS to walk a couple of paces behind me.
She says it is the perfect distance to kick my butt, when needed.
Eph 5:24-30
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
KJV
Amazing how may people forget the other half of the equation. It is NOT a one way street; the Word must be rightly divided to discern truth.
Whip me, beat me, and make me write bad checks.
I love women.
I'm sorry, I didn't make my point clear. The emphasis was supposed to have been on the word "claims," not on what was being "claimed." I've never heard of God making a claim, LOL.
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