Posted on 11/24/2004 9:25:38 AM PST by wallcrawlr
An informal exorcism performed at the Cathedral of St. Paul this month was more profane than sacred and was directed toward gay Catholics, police and church authorities said Tuesday.
They said the ritualistic sprinkling of blessed oil and salt around the church and in donation boxes amounted to costly vandalism and possibly even a hate crime.
The damage was discovered Nov. 7 after the noon mass, and after words were exchanged between members of the Rainbow Sash Alliance, a gay rights group, and the opposing group, Catholics Against Sacrilege.
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
Haha! That must mean you drink Irish coffee, judging from the logic of many of your remarks.
I was thinking the same thing with respect to Mahoney, McCarrick, Egan, etc.
"Denying the validity of the Novus Ordo Eucharist is not the truth"
That will surely come to a shock to the late Cardinals Ottoviani & Bacci, who rightfully condemnd the New Rite of the Mass, and threatened to expose PaulVI as a heretic. That much is a fact of history.
It will also come as a big surprise to numerous competent and even minded scholars who have written critiques of the "new arrangement". For those in love with Vatican II, the Novus Ordo - as it appears in your missalette - is a gross violation of the documents on the sacred liturgy itself, and is diametrically opposed to the will of the
Council fathers.
But, regardless of all this, if a mass is said invalidly, it results in a cookie - not the Sacred Body & blood of Christ. If invalid masses are all that a particular priest says, then the tabernacle at that church is a big cookie jar. Sad, but true, according to the Doctors of the Church.
Indeed, neither a possessed person nor a demon is going to be afraid of a cookie. But note that in exorcism, the exorcist is careful that if he does bring a host to the exorcism, he is sure that it was validly consecrated.
I was Novus Ordo before coming here and reading your posts. I'll never forget the first post of yours I read..in it you slammed Catholic architecture especially altar areas that sort of look like a Cathedral within a Cathedral.
Well...the Boston Cathedral looks like that..and I found it most stunning hte first time I saw it...your comments, it seemed to me, were typed with a malace that was almost unnatural in its intensity. The trend continues....Your defense of the Rainbow Sash Brigade gives me the creeps.
Yes you did. Which is what I said: if every consecration at a Novus Ordo Mass has to be examined, then none of them can be presumed valid. Which is, to use a term familiar to you, heresy.
Whether someone believes it to be valid or not is a matter of opinion frequently based on personal study
Actually, it's not a matter of "opinion." Consecrations are assumed to be valid unless you have direct evidence otherwise. So there is no need to "study" Novus Ordo consecrations.
You traddies love to scare lurkers with this "intent" nonsense. You simply do not know what you're talking about.
Costly vandalism? Does no one attend Mass there until noon on Sunday? They said it could have been done anytime from Saturday night through the noon Mass itself. A little salt and a little oil that no one noticed equals costly vandalism and/or a hate crime? Seems to me they are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
A validly ordained priest, who uses valid matter, and says the words of consecration, says a valid Mass with a valid Eucharist. You're another one who spreads this nonsense about "intent."
Yes - the masterpiece of the Irish born architect who lived in Brooklyn, Patrick Christopher Keely was indeed Holy Cross Cathedral. He designed literally hundreds of churches, including Immaculate Conception - the nearby Jesuit church, which the Jesuits recently detroyed hte interior thereof.
But Holy Cross was recently "liturgized" by Cardinal Law a few years back. Sad. So Sad. It was never more beautiful then before that wreckovation, when it was in disrepair......but even falling plaster could not disguise its intrinsic beauty.
Keely's self proclaimed model for most of his churches was that they should resemble an ideal Catholic - modest and plain on the outside, but filled with the beauty and glory of Christ on the inside.
PING
Point out where I have defended the Rainbow Sash Brigades.
That's like saying that, because I condemn abortion bombers like Eric Rudolph, that I'm pro-choice.
I have no use for people who make a display at Catholic Masses, and take the Cardinal George approach: if you flaunt your sinful behavior, you will be denied the Eucharist.
I don't believe for a single minute that you were Novus Ordo when you came here. The traddie websites have been directing people to Free Republic for months.
Liars give me the creeps, Pio. YOU give me the creeps.
What I said is there for anyone to read.
Since you are only interested in bashing me personally at this point no further discussion is necessary.
No. Dangerous like Eric Rudolph, who might have blown up the church.
Not to the touchy-feely selective among us.
Is it me or is someone in particular bashing anyone in sight on this thread with no consequences from a moderator?
"You have done as much to poison the religion forum as I or anyone else around here has."
One doesn't "poison" a forum with civil arguments for a valid position...and by valid, I mean one that a reasonable person can in good faith advocate.
She may have made the forum less congenial for you, but that's a good thing.
You're another one who spreads this nonsense about "intent."
You traddies love to scare lurkers with this "intent" nonsense. You simply do not know what you're talking about."
It seems that we have a mutual friend who has never read St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Augustine. I guess the phrase "Dubiam Sacramentum est Nulla Sacramentum" doth not mean anything to him.
For a sacrament - in this case a mass - to be valid, the following ingredients must all be present: a valid rite, a valid minister of the sacrament (validly ordained priest or bishop), valid matter (unleavened bread & wine), and the proper intention of the minister of the sacrament to confect the sacrament - that is, to effect transubstaniation.
Without the presence of ALL of these ingredients together, we do not have a mass, there is no transubstantiation, and the bread remains bread. Period.
We usually presume that the priest is validly ordained, unless we know otherwise. We usually presume that the priest has the correct intention ot validly confect the sacrament, unless we know from his words that he believes and practices otherwise. But, as I said, sometimes we CAN know these things.
Now as to our friendly lurkers, they should and can know these things. In a former time, they were taught in every grade school which was Catholic. Not so now. But you should know this - and you have a right to know these things. It is not secret, arcane information. This is contained in any good truly Catholic catechism. Available in works by Sts. Thomas Aquinas, Robert Bellermine, Augustine of Hippo, Francis DeSales.
If this means by doing some digging that you find out that your priest does not believe in the mass as sacrifice, nor in transubstantiation - find another priest.....or go to a different church.
If it were true that the Novus Ordo Missae was an invalid rite - on the face of it, then we as Catholics have and are being cheated. Robbed of the faith, and conned into committing material idolatry of bread & wine.
If that were true, then it would be like sounding a fire alarm in a crowded building......there would be a stampede for the door. Some men who wore mitres & biretas would be lynched.
But that, as Paul Harvey used to say........is another story.
Yup, sure looks that way. I dont understand why the mods let this person get away with it.
If that were true, then it would be like sounding a fire alarm in a crowded building......there would be a stampede for the door. Some men who wore mitres & biretas would be lynched.
But that, as Paul Harvey used to say........is another story.
The Novus Ordo is not invalid. Never has been, never will be.
You dispense wisdom like a mental patient.
If only there was a resurrection of the Auto da Fe'
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