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Perfect John Adams quote showing that Religion has a place in government (Vanity)

Posted on 11/22/2004 8:39:41 PM PST by AVNevis

I was doing reasearch this evening for a debate tournament I am participating in a couple of weeks when I came upon this quote:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

It seems to me this just nails the aclu argument about separation of church and state. Here we have a founding father stating that the constitution does not work if the people are not moral and religious. It seems to me we should be using this quote much more often in debates with liberals.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: adams; churchandstate; debate; founders; founding; foundingfathers; johnadams; moral; morality; quotes; religion
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To: little jeremiah

>>I can see that you haven't thought this out clearly.
Maybe you're rather young.<<

Have you thought to read my profile page? I just read yours, the blank one.


121 posted on 11/22/2004 11:46:44 PM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: B4Ranch

I just checked - can't read that many words late at night.

Regarding my page, I like it blank. My comments speak for themselves.

;-)


122 posted on 11/22/2004 11:48:58 PM PST by little jeremiah (Moral absolutes are what make humans human.)
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To: little jeremiah

>>Lying in a court of law or as a public statement should be illegal.<<

It is. If it's intentional, it's called perjury.

Now, when you locate a court system in the US of A that deals in judicial control and not simply legal control, please post it for all to see.

Have you read the White Paper I mentioned in 116?


123 posted on 11/22/2004 11:53:21 PM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: little jeremiah

>>My comments speak for themselves.<<

Yes, they do.


124 posted on 11/22/2004 11:54:49 PM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: B4Ranch

I believe...
There are more inherently good people than bad people.
A man is only as good as his word.
Once lost personal credibility is more difficult to restore than credit.
If my child committed a crime I would help. If my child told me a lie. I would turn away for that lie would have made my child a stranger.
Honesty is a valuable gift protect it!


125 posted on 11/22/2004 11:56:33 PM PST by notamused (Be humble, but if you must beat a man do it so severely you fear not his reprisal.)
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To: notamused

I believe you also are a candidate for reading the White Paper mentioned in 116.

I suggest doing it in the morning unless you are always a 'night person'.


126 posted on 11/22/2004 11:58:35 PM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: B4Ranch

Maybe you could post a summary of the White Paper, or something. I'd read it tomorrow.

It's too late for me to go cruising around the web.


127 posted on 11/23/2004 12:00:32 AM PST by little jeremiah (Moral absolutes are what make humans human.)
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To: little jeremiah

You can't like the A.C.L.U. they don't have morals.
Boy Scouts do.
Scouts are...
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Freindly
Courtious
Kind
Obediant
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent


128 posted on 11/23/2004 12:03:14 AM PST by notamused (Be humble, but if you must beat a man do it so severely you fear not his reprisal.)
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To: notamused

You thought I like the ACLU?

The ACLU should all die tomorrow.


129 posted on 11/23/2004 12:09:10 AM PST by little jeremiah (Moral absolutes are what make humans human.)
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To: little jeremiah

Easy cowboy, it was a statement not an inditement.
It's also support for your moral theory


130 posted on 11/23/2004 12:13:25 AM PST by notamused (Be humble, but if you must beat a man do it so severely you fear not his reprisal.)
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To: notamused

No prob. I hadn't read enough of your comments to figure out where you were coming from.

Plus I been arguing with some people who think they're libertarians or something about pornography. Funny thing is, they wouldn't have their porn if it weren't for the ACLU. Those porn freaks always get me on a hair trigger!


131 posted on 11/23/2004 12:18:40 AM PST by little jeremiah (Moral absolutes are what make humans human.)
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To: B4Ranch
I have seen many a family of which I was thankful that I was not a part of because of the over-indulgence in religious beliefs expressed therein.

I'm curious if these families were Bible centric or organized-religion centric? I found it odd the Founders held organized religion to the point of theocracy as one of their greatest fears and yet willfully participated (even encouraged) Bible study. Then I noted the differences between corrupt organized religion and genuine personal Christian lifestyle. They are exceedingly different things. I feel for you and concede your point. I only hope your circumstances don't present a hurdle for objective historical and Biblical study.
132 posted on 11/23/2004 12:25:16 AM PST by so_real (It's all about sharing the Weather)
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To: little jeremiah
What you're describing - post structuralism - is actually a kind of cult.

Actually, it's a tool for analyzing communications. It's similar to the process of diagramming sentences, only on a more abstract level that can be applied to sculpture, writing, music, or rituals. The point is to break everything down into a power struggle. You find the opposing forces and their position of equilibrium, and then you analyze the mechanisms they employ. All linguistic culture ("text" to the post-modernists) may be analyized ("deconstructed") this way.

There is nothing cultish about this in and of itself. The Koolaid is tainted when the student of culture forgets that absolute truth, such as the laws of physics, remain unchanged by his own perspective.

Most post-structuralists are like children who, when they discover the theory of relativity, think they can jump off the roof and time travel to avoid hitting the ground.

133 posted on 11/23/2004 12:30:04 AM PST by risk
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To: so_real

>>I'm curious if these families were Bible centric or organized-religion centric?<<

Actually, both. In looking back these people had control freak ministers who would demand obedience from their uneducated, frightened beleievers.

I was never under one of them, probably because I was and still am an overly independent individual. I believe in self responsibility and don't ask for help if the sun isn't shining on me.

Fortunately, I have been very successful in life which has only furthered my independence.


134 posted on 11/23/2004 12:37:55 AM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: little jeremiah

A summary couldn't do it justice. Enjoy it tomorrow.


135 posted on 11/23/2004 12:39:19 AM PST by B4Ranch (The lack of alcohol in my coffee is forcing me to see reality!)
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To: little jeremiah
people shouldn't lie even at home, generally speaking, unless they need to in order to protect themselves and those around them.

My comments speak for themselves.


They sure do...
... talk about moral ambiguity, that exception to the 'no lying' clause is big enough for most felons to drive a stolen armored car through with the murdered guards painting the floor with their blood...

Did Jesus LIE when he said 'lazarus is sleeping' when HE knew good and well that laz was dead, and that his disciples believed he was telling them that laz was taking a nap?

hey, we all have our own measure of what can be said truthfully or not... and that is the point, what ONE person believes is right or wrong to do in a situation, is up to them and God... ie. in the Old Testament, nathan speaking for God, claimed that GOD gave David all of his WIVES, plural. In the new testament, Jesus said one man one woman was best, but stopped far short of calling multiple spouses... adulterers. Today, Christians call multiple mariages an abomination, it is illegal and immoral.

Who changed it all? God? Jesus? the Christian majority?

No matter... but the point is "I am the Lord, I change not... " seemeth to be NOT exactly right. And yes, I understand the theological debates ad infinitum about progressive revelation, but to buy into it, "it is written" pretty much has to go to the circular file.

bottom line is, YOU don't know for everyone, what is necessarily moral or not, based on a simplied list like 'no lies' 'no adultery' 'no stealing' etc.

As principles... they are great... but the broad sweeping "we are a christian nation obey our laws based on God's revealed and objective truths," line of reasoning, is clearly dependent on whose list we are looking at in its context, culturally, socially and historically.

What was wrong yesterday, may not be wrong today, because of what we now know... What we thought was right yesterday, might be immoral today because we have the means to do it better or in a way that benefits the lives of others in a way that it might not of, yesterday or yesteryear.

The founders were wise to write specifics OUT of the constitution... I don't want the tyrrany of the 51 percent, whoever that may be, impacting the freedoms of the entire nation... in the name of THEIR consensus regarding God's will... Europe did that to exterminate non catholics... for centuries. We don't need that here. and God willing, we never will.

136 posted on 11/23/2004 1:43:37 AM PST by Robert_Paulson2 (real republicans WIN.)
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To: little jeremiah

It's too late for me to go cruising around the web.



that was actually funny.
did you see what time it is?

we are all here doing just what you said we shouldn't be doing.
come to think of it though... you are right.
it's getting late.


137 posted on 11/23/2004 1:47:48 AM PST by Robert_Paulson2 (real republicans WIN.)
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To: sneakers

bump


138 posted on 11/23/2004 3:36:43 AM PST by sneakers
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To: AVNevis

I'd be more than happy for President Bush to "use" it if, when he did, he sincerely meant it....


139 posted on 11/23/2004 3:37:00 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: TexasGreg

Ping


140 posted on 11/23/2004 4:17:55 AM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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