Posted on 11/16/2004 4:52:07 AM PST by Gritty
Right, so you are saying we should kill all muslims. I guess we start by just nuking all the civilian populations in the Mideast? Follow that up with some concentration/conversion/death camps here at home? You are sick. I KNOW some muslims, and trust me, they are not all the weird psycho animals you make them out to be. Most of the muslims in this country live in the suburbs, drive their kids to soccer practice in SUVs, and would agree with most of us on most social issues (abortion, for example).
You are a sick f*ck.
That succinct enough for you?
Go talk to some Muslims. Seriously. Just go do it. (but calm down first, maybe lay off the coffee?). They are not all evil. In fact, I think you know that: "MOST Muzzle-ems are NOT aware of the ultimate goal of their cult." Hmmm. Perhaps that is because "the ultimate goal of their cult" is only something that the extremists want? It seems to me your course of action is a self-fullfilling prophecy: If we ban Islam then yes, the majority of Muslims within the united states will become our enemies. That seems pretty similar to the idea that if we ban guns, only criminals will have them...
And before you go quoting the Qu'ran again, try reading the whole thing through, with a (relatively) open mind. Sure, it talks about violence... but so does the OT.
Either you did not read these statements of the official Islamic spokesmen, or you, yourself, are actually a Muzzle-em. Nevertheless... I hereby repeat said statements to blow apart your ridiculous argument:
"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." [CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad].
So, smcmike... how much more succinct could he have been? "...I'd like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future." [Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman]. Another of their spokesman, Ghazi Khankan, said at a rally held in Washington DC: "I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." !!!
Now... get down on your hands and knees, grovel on your Muzzle-em prayer rug, and ask for forgiveness from me and your death cult moon god Allah, for calling me "a sick f*ck" !!!
You are right, I should not have made it personal.
Your ideas are the ideas of a sick f*ck. Have you ever met a Muslim? Seriously.
I talk to Muslim students almost every day. Not one ---not even one, do I trust. Part of their conditioning is tricking the "unbelievers" -Christians like myself - into thinking they are peaceful and straight. NO such thing...After years of being exposed to them, I have come to the realization that either conversion or death will solve the problem.
You seriously need to wake up.
Sick sick sick!
SICK!!
If I spent much time talking to "christians" like you, I might come to the same conclusion (about you)!
Just think about what you are saying. Conversion or death! This whole argument seems strangely reminiscent of one that might have gone on in 1930s Germany, or perhaps 3rd century Rome.
Before responding on this topic, you should get some experience with Muslims and you need to read up on your history..,your dates and facts are off by a mile.
And your strange little habit of personally attacking those who you disagree with smacks of naivete and churlish temper.
I know a few Muslims, the ones I know are nice people. I'm not vouching for them all, but I am saying you can't condemn a third of the earth's population based on the acts of a few. You are right that I should probably not attack people personally, and I apologize... sort of. What you are proposing is still SICK SICK SICK!!!
And how are my facts or dates off? Explain, please!
Your ideas are the ideas of a sick f*ck. Have you ever met a Muslim? Seriously.
======
Yes, indeed, I have met a Muzzle-em. Its screen name on FreeRepublic is smcmike !!!
And it continues to refuse to acknowledge the statements made by its death cult spokesmen, to wit:
"...I'd like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future." -- Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman
"I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." -- Ghazi Khankan, CAIR spokesman
"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." -- Omar Ahmed, CAIR co-founder
Islam, as it is taught in the Quran (Koran) and as it was lived by Muhammad, is reported in the Hadith (Biography and sayings of the so called Prophet) is a religion of intolerance, inequality, violence, discrimination, superstition, fanaticism, and blind, unquestioning faith.
Islam advocates murdering all non-Muslims and it abuses the basic human rights of women and minorities. Islam was expanded by Jihad (holy war) and forced its way by brutally murdering the non-believers and the Muslim dissidents.
And Apostasy in Islam is the biggest crime, punishable by death !!! Why ???
The so called prophet Muhammad was a fundamentalist himself, therefore fundamentalism cannot be separated from TRUE Islam. Islam, which means submission, demands that its followers submit their wills and thoughts to Muhammad and his moon god Allah, a created deity that despises reason, democracy, freedom of thought and freedom of expression.
The self proclaimed prophet Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship with Aisha (a 6-year-old child), his killing sprees, his massacre and genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destruction of water wells, his cursing and invoking evil upon his enemies, and his revenge upon his captured prisoners of war, totally and completely disqualify him as being a decent human being, let alone his claim that he is the messenger of God. Sheeesh... a "religion" comprised of lies and absurdities !!!
I thoroughly REJECT Islam, because of Muhammad’s complete lack of moral and ethical fortitude, the insistance of murdering all Cristians, Jews and other Infidels, and because of the total and complete absurdities that reside within the Quran !!!
So... Muzzle-em smcmike... how many Infidels have you decapitated today in your pursuit and defense of the religion of p-i-e-c-e-s ???
Yeah, yeah.
Calling me a Muslim doesn't make me one. If you are interested, I disagree entirely with Muslim theology, and agree that it facilitates the oppression of women, and that it is sometimes use for much darker things. I also am not disputing what your CAIR spokesmen said. HOWEVER, I don't think your approach is very productive, and know that it is immoral. The proper approach to Islam, in my view, is to co-opt it, to bring it into the mainstream, and to eliminate fundementalism through all the nice benefits of modern life. Basically, I expect Islam to become "corrupted" through western capitalism and democracy.
And, for what it is worth, in the early conquests of Islam they didn't kill all unbelievers, they mostly just taxed them (particularly the people of the book). Which was considerably better than life as a heretic under many Xtian empires.
You are now implying that you are NOT a Muzzle-em (Muslim). Therefore, according to the Koran, you are an "unbeliever" ("infidel"). Are you aware that the Koran STRICTLY FORBIDS believers from being FRIENDS with unbelievers??? (I'll cite Koran chapter and verse if you insist).
How then can claim to have Muzzle-em friends???
P.S. Are you paying them their Koran imposed tax???
Have you read the Qu'ran all the way through, or do you rely upon some website to find these verses for you? I haven't read it, but I have been told by friends of mine (non-muslim friends) who have that the overall message is not all that violent, certainly no more so than the OT. I intend on reading it through at some point, but don't exactly have the time right now.
And I didn't so much imply that I am not a muslim as SAY that I am not a muslim. I'm not particularly religious at all, if you must know.
Are you aware that the OT strictly forbids Jews from eating shellfish? And yet I know several who enjoy oysters as much as I do!
Just an academic question...if geek was essentially correct (though no doubt histrionic), how could he/she prove it to you?
I just don't see that happening. You would have to prove to me that every single Muslim in the world is deserving of death if they refuse to give up their faith... Which, as far as I can tell, no one could convince me of. I don't think there is any belief system in the world that would fit into that category for me. I guess that's what comes from believing in the fundemental rights of man.
So what you are in effect saying, minus your hyperbole, is even if geek were essentially correct...you wouldn't be able to recognize it as fact.
No, that is not what I am saying at all. That is a horrendous leap of logic.
What exactly am I supposed to be accepting as fact again? That all Muslims are deserving of death? I think that's it. So let's look at this...
First off, I don't know that this is a provable statement. Whether someone "deserves" to die is not always subjective (I would argue that there are those who do deserve death by any decent standard), but it IS very tricky to combine logic and morality.
But, assuming that we can safely say that it is a fact someone deserves to die (and surely there are plenty of terrorists who deserve worse than that), what you are suggesting here is still beyond logic. If every Muslim I had ever met deserved death, it might be a safe assumption that the next one I met would as well, but it would not be a proven fact.
Finally, WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING IS F*CKING SICK!!!! Really, I don't see why anything you could say should be expected to change my mind. I can't think of anything you could say that would convince me the Holocaust was OK either.
Despite your attempts to blur distinctions with hyperbole, the simple fact is you are refusing to entertain a distinct possibility. That is, that islam is inherently antagonistic (murderously so) to anything that is not islam.
As to my logic...your disapproval of it does not invalidate it. You have already answered the one question that catagorically proves you are incapable of taking an objective view. I learned long ago not to waste time arguing with people whose ideas and philosophies are so fuzzy and nebulous that they're unable to recognize if and when they are wrong.
That's not to say that you are wrong; just that you would be unable to recognize it if you were.
Your anecdotes about "good" moslems in no way invalidates the proposition that those "good" moslems are engaged in some very real cognitive dissonance where their religion is concerned. As one Rachel Lipkin recently said on arab television " There is no such thing as a good moslem. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they aren't good people; just that there is no such thing as a good moslem."
While the proposition of wiping out huge swaths of humanity is absurd, there is a distinct possibility that Ann Coulter's suggestion isn't.
Ah, I see your argument now.
The fact that you accuse ME of hyperbole when I was arguing against a fellow who refered to Muslims as Muzzle-ems is a little bit ironic though.
And I agree completely that I am incapable of taking an objective view on this, that is kind of what my last post was all about. Of course, I also believe you are incapable of taking an objective view on it. We are only human. Subjective views are often valid however, so I won't hold that against you.
If the statement I am dealing with is "Islam is inherently antagonistic (muderously so) to anything that is not Islam," then you are right, I was engaged in a bit of hyperbole. That is certainly something that can be argued, though I still disagree with it (though not as violently).
The problem is that this argument still judges the vast majority of the religion by the acts of a few. Also, if the average Arab on the street has a problem with the US, that does not necessarily prove that Islam is to blame: they are mostly upset about Isreal (not that I am proposing we give in there), and now Iraq. The key, as I said before, is NOT to try and "convert" them away from Islam. It is to "corrupt" Islam with some nice western values, like democracy, human rights and capitalism.
If we are going to carry on a proper arguement, you are going to have to quit wasting my time with cliches included to mask the fact you have very little background in the subject matter. You are speaking from a point of reference that assumes western liberal concepts, and in case you hadn't noticed...unqualified western liberal concepts are exceedingly tricky to apply to eastern peoples. Failing any meeting of cultural touchstones one is left with only one medium for substantive communication, and that medium is logic.
Also, if the average Arab on the street has a problem with the US, that does not necessarily prove that Islam is to blame: they are mostly upset about Isreal (not that I am proposing we give in there), and now Iraq.
Please tell me the extent of your reading on this subject. From my research, you have the problem exactly backward. Israel is the "little satan" while we are the "great satan." Israel is a western democracy, the fact that it is primarly populated by jews is just icing on the cake.
The key, as I said before, is NOT to try and "convert" them away from Islam. It is to "corrupt" Islam with some nice western values, like democracy, human rights and capitalism.
It is precisely that "corruption" that they are fighting against, and have been for about three hundred years. Unfortunately, you are living off the bones of what "conversion" has wrought without ever knowing the whats and whys of the living entity. You enjoy the abundant fruit without real knowlege of what it took to grow that fruit. Where do you think workable democracy, human rights, and capitalism came from?
Haha, OK, I will quit wasting your time with cliches, I want to carry on a proper "arguement." Yeah, that was a silly cheap shot, I know, but you are annoying me a little here.
Please tell me the extent of YOUR reading on the subject. I am coming to this problem from the standpoint of a moderately well informed citizen, I can't claim to be an expert on the subject at all. I don't think that I have the problem backwards, however. It seems to me that western imperialism in the region is the primary factor that has created the extreme antipathy towards us in the region, rather than our "freedoms" here in the US. Not saying that they like our system of government (though aparently many do, since they keep coming here!), but clearly it is western interference in the region that has brought us to the present day conflict. As far as US being the Great Satan, and Isreal being the Little Satan, I would be that is because the average Palestinian/Arab sees Isreal as a puppet state of the US. It still comes down to they hate us because we helped to create a Jewish homeland (and for the various other acts in the region, there are lots).
So where does that leave us? We can't stop supporting Isreal, obviously. What we need to fight the war on terror is to eliminate the extremists, but almost more importantly, to support the moderates. And yes, there are moderate Muslims. To do this, we do need to help establish a relatively sound peace in Palestine, one that moderate muslims can at least accept, if not agree with. We also need to continue to pursue Pres. Bush's path in Iraq, and hope and pray that through a lot of hard work we can build a stable islamic Democracy, which can show the way for the rest of the region.
And if I'm going to carry on a proper argument with you, it would be nice if you would present a position of your own, instead of just attacking mine.
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