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To: smcmike
The problem is that this argument still judges the vast majority of the religion by the acts of a few.

If we are going to carry on a proper arguement, you are going to have to quit wasting my time with cliches included to mask the fact you have very little background in the subject matter. You are speaking from a point of reference that assumes western liberal concepts, and in case you hadn't noticed...unqualified western liberal concepts are exceedingly tricky to apply to eastern peoples. Failing any meeting of cultural touchstones one is left with only one medium for substantive communication, and that medium is logic.

Also, if the average Arab on the street has a problem with the US, that does not necessarily prove that Islam is to blame: they are mostly upset about Isreal (not that I am proposing we give in there), and now Iraq.

Please tell me the extent of your reading on this subject. From my research, you have the problem exactly backward. Israel is the "little satan" while we are the "great satan." Israel is a western democracy, the fact that it is primarly populated by jews is just icing on the cake.

The key, as I said before, is NOT to try and "convert" them away from Islam. It is to "corrupt" Islam with some nice western values, like democracy, human rights and capitalism.

It is precisely that "corruption" that they are fighting against, and have been for about three hundred years. Unfortunately, you are living off the bones of what "conversion" has wrought without ever knowing the whats and whys of the living entity. You enjoy the abundant fruit without real knowlege of what it took to grow that fruit. Where do you think workable democracy, human rights, and capitalism came from?

79 posted on 11/19/2004 7:52:56 AM PST by papertyger
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To: papertyger

Haha, OK, I will quit wasting your time with cliches, I want to carry on a proper "arguement." Yeah, that was a silly cheap shot, I know, but you are annoying me a little here.

Please tell me the extent of YOUR reading on the subject. I am coming to this problem from the standpoint of a moderately well informed citizen, I can't claim to be an expert on the subject at all. I don't think that I have the problem backwards, however. It seems to me that western imperialism in the region is the primary factor that has created the extreme antipathy towards us in the region, rather than our "freedoms" here in the US. Not saying that they like our system of government (though aparently many do, since they keep coming here!), but clearly it is western interference in the region that has brought us to the present day conflict. As far as US being the Great Satan, and Isreal being the Little Satan, I would be that is because the average Palestinian/Arab sees Isreal as a puppet state of the US. It still comes down to they hate us because we helped to create a Jewish homeland (and for the various other acts in the region, there are lots).

So where does that leave us? We can't stop supporting Isreal, obviously. What we need to fight the war on terror is to eliminate the extremists, but almost more importantly, to support the moderates. And yes, there are moderate Muslims. To do this, we do need to help establish a relatively sound peace in Palestine, one that moderate muslims can at least accept, if not agree with. We also need to continue to pursue Pres. Bush's path in Iraq, and hope and pray that through a lot of hard work we can build a stable islamic Democracy, which can show the way for the rest of the region.

And if I'm going to carry on a proper argument with you, it would be nice if you would present a position of your own, instead of just attacking mine.


80 posted on 11/19/2004 8:11:48 AM PST by smcmike
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