Posted on 11/10/2004 2:52:53 AM PST by teezle
I have read several comments by FReepers about the slaugthering of Theo van Gogh and see a lot of half truths about it. Therefore I will write this short report from Utrecht (The Netherlands).
Theo van Gogh was a very famous film maker and columnist in The Netherlands. His movies were about several topics including a remake of Romeo and Julia with a Dutch girl and a Morrocan immigrant. He was a very generous guy as all his friends mentioned at the funeral and a good citizen (working for his son's sportclub). His other side was his fun in provoking people. He has provoked almost every well-known person in the Netherlands. For instance, there has been a lawsuit against him for commenting: "It smells like caramel, they must be burning the Jews with diabetes". He just loved to create conflicts.
He has been sacked as a columnist numerous times and the last few years he used the free newspaper in public traffic and his website www.degezonderoker.nl (thehealthysmoker) for his insults. Last years a lot of his insults were pointed against Muslims which he always mentioned as goatf*uckers. And yes, that is possible in the NL. I read an article about a NYT reporter who was thinking how he was going to translate that. I read in the NYT that he finally used "bestiality with a goat". :-)
Another person in the NL who is trying to start a discussion about Muslims and the Koran is Ayaan Hirsi Ali (House of Representatives for the liberal party). She is originally from Somalia and when she was told to marry a guy she fled to the NL. She asked Theo van Gogh to do a short film about Mulims women surpression and he did. Ayaan has been threatened so many times (she is someone who is not Muslim anymore, don't know the word for that) that she got police protection 24/7. Theo did not want protection.
Last week Theo van Gogh was cycling through Amsterdam and Mohammed B. shot him several times, slit his throat and than stabbed two knifes in him. One was sticking a letter to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to his body.
That night 20.000 people were making a lot of noise on the Dam (square) in Amsterdam to make a statement that this will not be tolerated. Also several Muslim demonstrations have been held after Tuesday. And a few rightwing extremist (neo nazis) were having demonstrations but these were aborted by the police.
A few more people were arrested in the aftermath and police are searching Mohammed B.'s religious teacher. They both had contact with Samir A., the guy who was arrested for planning attacks against the House of Rep.
Mohammed B. was raised in the NL and was a normal (read: moderate Muslim) until two years ago. He started visiting more radical mosques, got a beard and started wearing djelaba's. People around him say that he started becoming radical after his mother died of cancer. But when he got radical they lost contact.
Since Theo van Gogh was not a normal guy his friends organised a party the day before his funeral. They even had a corner with goats behind a fence with a sign above it: "For people that have the urge". :-)
Since last Tuesday a few attacks have been commited against Islamic schools and mosques. This ranged from small fires to thrown-in windows. Apart from two other attacks: A bomb attack at a Islamic school in Eindhoven and yesterday a fire that burned down a Islamic school in Uden. Also several churces have been under attack in recent days and yesterday night (I cannot believe it) the church in the village I grew up at (Boxmeer) was set on fire (small one though).
This morning I woke up and learned that the terrorism police squad tried to enter a house in The Hague and got a grenade thrown at them. Three police men were hurt. The police is trying to prevent the thing that happened in Madrid (exploding house when they entered) and are still waiting to enter the house. It is now even prohibited to fly over The Hague.
I can tell you guys this. Living in the Netherlands at this moment in time is very unreal. The song I keep having in my head this morning is "We gotta get out of this place.." I am starting to think more and more that we are on the edge of a major conflict within the NL (as some of you guys have been telling al along), but I am not ready to give up on the Muslim community in the Netherlands.
If it happens I probably have move to another country (perhaps to America like Theo van Gogh was going to do when his son finally got 18, is now 12 I believe). We'll see...
Btw. People were questioning my Dutch decent because of my English but I lived in England for half a year so that's why.
If anyone has any questions about the Netherlands or the situation as of now, please feel free to ask.
Best, Teezle
Thanks for posting!! I think the problem with moderate muslims is that they all have the potential of becoming radical muslims at some point by coming in contact with the wrong people.
I visit Amsterdam every year for the last 8 years . I have many friends there. I noticed the last few years the growing Moslem population .my cloe friend there has told me , more and more , that street crime is starting to happen in Amsterdam (mostly young Moslem gangs)Another friend is a school teacher there. He too told me that the Islamic kids are major problems there . Arrogant and unwilling to be part of the Dutch society. I saw mush of this behavior myself in recent visits. Please do the righ tthing in Jolland before it's too late. Dont put up with it . It's such a wonderful country .
Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us. Your post was more interesting and informative than the news articles on this subject.
Thank you for the extra information.
I have known severa Hollanders and they all speak almost unaccented English. and French. and German. etc.
16 million are Dutch and one million are Muslim?
With their birthrate and the birthrate of the original Dutch population, they will own your country in a generation. When that happens, you may get the chance to emigrate, if you are lucky. The Islamic way is "convert or die." Sometimes they kill you anyway just for the bloodlust of it.
The Muslims are going to bring another Dark Ages upon Europe.
This is what you Dutch get for your historic generosity to all cultures.
Raid in The Hague Leaves Three Police Officers Wounded; Air Space Over City Closed
In memory of Mr. Van Gogh, I hereby promise to refer to Muslims as goat****ers as often as possible.
The problem is, so many Muslim communities do not stand up and protest the terrorists. I find it really difficult to accept a group which, though it says it is against terrorism, won't turn in such terrorists because they are 'muslims' If you don't want to give up on them, then you should be pushing them to become part of society and stand against the terrorists and radicals who they say have stolen their peaceful religion.
teezle, you've taken a lot of abuse here and i'm sorry for that. I know you've been trying to provide a Dutch perspective on things and I for one appreciate it.
A lot of the people on FR are quick to fire critiques if you violate their perceived "party line", but they are not thinking things through. Many are greatly PO'd about the Islamist threat and this affects their reactions.
When you say "Living in the Netherlands at this moment in time is very unreal," you are experiencing exactly and precisely what America has been going through since 9/11. Particularly in the months following 9/11, Americans were generally in shock about what happened. I imagine that's what's going on in the Netherlands right now.
America does have a "politically correct" crowd that wants to avoid public discussion about the Islamist threat, which is a bad thing (obviously that crowd is not here on FR). However there is an undercurrent of investigation, discussion, books, and of course here on the Internet where these issues are discussed openly. I think if the discussion were more open it would be easier to sort out the Islamists from the "moderate Muslims" who seem to be absolutely silent in America. For example, unlike in Amsterdam we've had no demonstrations by the Muslims against Islamist terrorism. Not one. Zero. This makes us suspect that there really are no "moderate Muslims."
In any case I hope the Dutch government will set a model for Europe and take serious measure against the freedom-hating Islamists.
" It's such a wonderful country "
It is, and it is because this society
is *tolerant*. Going to Holland is always
like a breeze of fresh air.
I am shocked to read the news and to see
burning buildings in *this* country.
All Nederlandse must stand together now,
against this attack against their way of
life. Everybody.
Living next to the border, let them know
that we are with them.
Hun
Radical Muslims blow themselves up.
Hard-line Muslims buy the bombs for the Radicals.
Moderate Muslims write checks to the hard-liners.
It seems to me from my travels that the major problems are with many young, unassimilated Muslims who are very hostile to everyone non-Muslim and to western culture. In France, they pose a real threat to public order, in contrast to their elders who immigrated from Algeria, quietly practiced Islam, fit into society and often were very successful in business. A friend in Belgium told me that life in parts of his country is unbearable; Moroccan gangs exist even in the smallest villages and the population of radical young Muslims is exploding.
You didn't read teezle's post carefully, or see the articles about the response in Amsterdam.
There have been several anti-Islamist demos in Amsterdam *by Muslims*. And from what I've read, several hundred in attendance. Theo's film was itself inspired by *a Muslim* (OK, ex-Muslim) woman. And the vice mayor of Amsterdam - a Muslim - has threatened deportations and other measures against Islamists.
That reaction is greatly different from the utter silence of Muslims here in America, but don't confuse what's happening here to what's happening in Holland.
Please forgive my ignorance. It was my impression that radical Muslims started some of the church fires and attacks after the Muslim terrorists were arrested for murdering Theo Van Gogh.
Hi Teezle I worked in Zeist for a while and have been to Utrect a number of times. What I have been reading lately has been very bizarre given how open a society the Dutch are.
I am curious what has been posted on this site that you found incorrect? I have posted a number of stories regarding this situation and everything you have said had already been posted. Anyway thank you for clairifying the whole story for everyone.
Also can you claify something? I have read that a number of PM's and a television personality have been also threatened with their lives. What did they do to have their lives threatened?
Not in Fallujah. ;-)
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