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National Geographic Ignores The Flaws in Darwin's Theory
Discovery Institute News ^ | 11/8/04 | Jonathan Wells

Posted on 11/09/2004 11:21:22 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

Was Darwin wrong?

In the November 2004 issue of National Geographic, David Quammen answers this question with a resounding "NO. The evidence for Evolution is overwhelming."

In Quammen's view, most people who reject Darwin's theory of evolution do so out of ignorance, so he proceeds to lay out some of the evidence for it. But the evidence he lays out is exaggerated, and the problems with it are ignored.

Quammen explains that Darwin's theory has two aspects: the "historical phenomenon" that all species of living things are descended from common ancestors, and "the main mechanism causing that phenomenon," which is natural selection. The evidence presented by Darwin, he continues, "mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology."

The first category includes evidence from similar species in neighboring habitats, such as finches on the Galápagos Islands; the second includes evidence from the fossil record, such as extinct horse-like animals that preceded modern horses; and the third includes evidence from similarities in early embryos that supposedly point to their common ancestry.

All three categories are rife with problems that Quammen overlooks. For example, the Galápagos finch story is complicated by the fact that many of what were originally thought to be thirteen species are now interbreeding with each other -- even though Darwinian theory regards inability to interbreed as the distinguishing feature of separate species.

The fossil record of horses is also much more complicated than Quammen makes it out to be; actually, it looks like a tangled bush with separate branches rather than a straight line of ancestors and descendants. Even worse, Quammen ignores the Cambrian explosion, in which many of the major groups ("phyla") of animals appeared in a geologically short time with no fossil evidence of common ancestry -- a fact that Darwin himself considered a "serious" problem that "may be truly urged as a valid argument against" his theory.

Finally, embryos fail to show what Darwin thought they showed. According to Quammen, the evidence for evolution includes "revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching." Darwin (as quoted by Quammen) thought "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state," a state that "reveals the structure of its progenitor." This idea -- that embryos pass through earlier stages of their evolutionary history and thereby show us their ancestors -- is a restatement of German Darwinist Ernst Haeckel's notorious "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," a false doctrine that knowledgeable experts discarded over a century ago.

It is actually Quammen's fourth category, morphology (i.e., anatomical shape), which Darwin himself (as quoted by Quammen) called the 'very soul' of natural history, that provides the basis for the other three. In each category, similarity in morphology ("homology") is interpreted as evidence for evolutionary relatedness. According to Darwin, features in different organisms are homologous because they were inherited from a common ancestor through a process he called "descent with modification."

The biologists who described homology a decade before Darwin, however, attributed it to construction or creation on a common archetype or design. How can one determine whether homology in living things comes from common ancestry or common design? Simply pointing to the similarities themselves won't do, as biologist Tim Berra inadvertently showed when he used different models of Corvette automobiles to illustrate descent with modification in his 1990 book, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism. Although Berra wrote that "descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious" in Corvettes, we all know that automobile similarities are due to common design rather than common ancestry. Only by demonstrating that a Corvette can morph into another model by natural processes could someone rule out the need for a designer. Similarly, the only scientific way to demonstrate that similarities in living things are due to common ancestry would be to identify the natural mechanism that produced them. According to Darwin's theory, that mechanism is natural selection.

So the four categories of evidence on which Darwin relied to support his theory of the historical phenomenon of evolution rely, in turn, on his theory about the mechanism of evolution. But what is the evidence for Darwin's mechanism?

The principal evidence Quammen cites is antibiotic resistance. "There's no better or more immediate evidence supporting the Darwinian theory," Quammen writes, "than this process of forced transformation among our inimical germs." Perhaps so; but then Darwin's theory is in serious trouble. Antibiotic resistance involves only minor changes within existing species. In plants and animals, such changes had been known for centuries before Darwin. Nobody doubts that they can occur, or that they can be produced by selection. But Darwin claimed much more, namely, that the process of selection could produce new species -- indeed, all species after the first. That's why Darwin titled his magnum opus The Origin of Species, not How Existing Species Change Over Time.

Yet no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by selection, natural or otherwise. Bacteria should be the easiest organisms in which to observe this, because bacteria can produce thousands of generations in a matter of months, and they can be subjected to powerful mutation-causing agents and intense selection. Nevertheless, in over a century of research no new species of bacteria have emerged. Quammen cites Darwinian biologists who claim to have produced "incipient species," but this merely refers to different strains of the same species that the researchers believe -- on theoretical grounds -- might eventually become new species. When the truth of the theory itself is at stake, such a theoretical extrapolation hardly constitutes "overwhelming evidence" for it.

So the evidence Quammen presents for Darwin's theory falls far short of confirming it. Biogeography, paleontology, embryology and morphology all rely on homologies, and the only way to determine whether homologies are due to common descent rather than common design is to provide a natural mechanism. Yet Darwin's mechanism, natural selection, has never been observed to produce a single new species. Scientific theories (Quammen acknowledges) should not be accepted as a matter of faith, but only on the basis of evidence. And given the evidence, any rational person is justified in doubting the truth of Darwin's theory.

As Quammen points out at the beginning of his article, public opinion polls conducted over the past twenty years have consistently shown that only about 12% of Americans accept Darwin's theory that "humans evolved from other life-forms without any involvement of a god." The reference to "god" is significant, because it shows that science is not the only thing at stake here: Darwinism also makes religious and philosophical claims. Most importantly, Darwinism is committed to naturalism, the philosophy that nature is all that exists and God is imaginary -- or at least unnecessary. It is not surprising, then, that many people reject Darwinism on religious grounds. Nevertheless, Quammen maintains, most Americans are antievolutionists only because of "confusion and ignorance," because "they have never taken a biology course that deals with evolution nor read a book in which the theory was lucidly described."

As someone with a Berkeley Ph.D. in biology, I dispute Quammen's characterization of Darwin's doubters as confused and ignorant. On the contrary, Quammen's article makes it abundantly clear why it is quite reasonable to doubt Darwinism: The evidence for it is "underwhelming," at best.

The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 requires every state to formulate standards for science education. As a guide to interpreting the law, Congress also passed a Conference Report recognizing "that a quality science education should prepare students to distinguish the data and testable theories of science from religious or philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society.''

In other words, students should be encouraged to distinguish the actual evidence for Darwin's theory from the naturalistic philosophy that accompanies it. Furthermore, students should be taught not only the evidence for the theory, but also why much of that evidence is controversial. Congress recommends this; the American people overwhelmingly support it; and good science demands it.

Quammen claims that evolution is "more crucial nowadays to human welfare, to medical science, and to our understanding of the world, than ever before." Yet no country in history has made more contributions to human welfare and medical science than America. Is it just a coincidence that the vast majority of citizens in the most scientifically successful nation on Earth are skeptical of Darwin's theory? I think not. As a scientist myself, it seems to me that a healthy skepticism is essential to good science. This caveat applies to all theories, including Darwin's.

If Quammen's article had accurately presented not only the evidence for Darwin's theory, but also the problems with that evidence, it might have made a valuable contribution to scientific literacy in America. As it stands, however, the article is nothing more than a beautifully illustrated propaganda piece. The readers of National Geographic deserve better.

Jonathan Wells, Ph.D. Senior Fellow, Center for Science and Culture Discovery Institute


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; darwin; evolution; god; intelligentdesign; mediahype; nationalgeographic
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To: WildTurkey

You guys as well!

I looks like a WONDERFUL, blue sky day here in Indy!


281 posted on 11/13/2004 4:43:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Texas Songwriter
Yea...toronao through junkyard yields 747..evolution.

The flaws in that grossly invalid analogy have been explained *countless* times. So what's your excuse for still using it?

Hint: Evolutionary processes require three things -- 1) variation, 2) reproduction, 3) selection. Surely even you should be able to identify which TWO of those three are missing entirely from the childish "tornado in a junkyard" example, making it a vastly inappropriate model for evolution.

Sheesh.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- anti-evolutionists should really learn *something* about evolution, and about science in general, before they attempt to critique it.

The fact that creationists are still using this stupid analogy after all these years indicates that they're highly uneducated at best, and disgustingly disingenuous at worst. Which is it in your case?

282 posted on 11/13/2004 4:58:16 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Migraine
I agree with the premise of this post: the failure of the mag to acknowledge evolution's evidentiary difficulties, in effect, turned the mag into a rag.

Please state, in your own words, the "evidentiary difficulties" you feel that National Geographic has failed to acknowledge.

283 posted on 11/13/2004 5:16:42 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Carling
If evolution is such a lock, why is it that there is not one documented instance in the past 200 years of a member of one species giving birth to a completely new species with a different genetic code?

Please define "completely new species", and "different genetic code" as you are using them in this sentence.

Depending on your choices for those terms, the answer is either a) there *have* been documented instances, or b) you're asking for too much in too short a time -- like asking why we haven't seen any new mountain ranges arise in the past 200 years, if plate tectonics is correct.

Not once has that happened.

See above. The amount of species change one could reasonably expect to see within 200 years HAS been observed, many times.

Color variations within the same species has been documented,

...and much more...

but genetic alteration to the point of declaring a new species. NEVER.

Again, as long as you're not going to insist on gigantic amounts of accumulated change, new species *HAVE* been observed to arise. See for example: Observed Instances of Speciation and Some More Observed Speciation Events

And if you're willing to relax your "200 years" window a bit, in the past few thousand years "completely new" species of animals and plants have arisen under human observation, including for example domestic dogs from grey wolves (and while they're still canids, dogs are *not* still wolves), new species of foodplants from their ancestral species (many of which most people would never imagine were related -- modern corn is descended from a grass-like plant, for example), and so on.

My personal thoughts on this aside, how can anyone lend credence to calling evolution fact when the theory cannot be proved even in a controlled lab environment?

Actually, countless aspects of evolutionary theory *have* been "proven in a controlled lab environment", countless times. Who lied to you and told you that it hadn't been?

Furthermore, there are vast numbers of observations and evidences which confirm evolution outside "the lab". Whoever told you that the only "real" scientific verification can occur in a "lab" was misleading you on that point as well.

284 posted on 11/13/2004 5:35:13 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
A Review of The Design Revolution by William Dembski

Dembski's a fool. And yes, I say that after a thorough examination of his work.

285 posted on 11/13/2004 5:36:25 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Carling
Variance is real, but you can't tell me that evolution can be proven within a lab.

Why not? It can.

No one knows how new species are created.

Many people know, even if you don't. They are created through evolution. There is overwhelming evidence, along at least several dozen different lines of confirmation, confirming evolution as the process by which new species were made.

That is the only fact I can see in this thread

What makes you so sure that that actually is a "fact"?

286 posted on 11/13/2004 5:38:44 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Aquinasfan
Darwinism is a fideistic religion.

You're quite mistaken, but feel free.

287 posted on 11/13/2004 5:39:55 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Pacothecat
Just remember when science said leaches cured disease or all the other planets rotated around the earth.

No I don't because it's not "science" that said those things. Nice try.

And let's not forget that it was Galileo, a scientist, who disputed that "other planets rotatd around the Earth", and it was the *church* which "said all the other planets rotated around the Earth" and persecuted Galileo for his "heresy"...

Did you "forget" about that, or are you just hugely ignorant of the history of science, but quite willing to slander it anyway?

Darwins theory is more of a fairy tale then sea monsters eating ships at the end of flat earth.

Wow, who's been filling *your* head full of nonsense?

Millions of fossils later not one transitional one (i.e. frog growing wings etc.) has ever been found

Actually, thousands have been found -- how does one person manage to be this arrogant about his ignorance?

and all the Neanderthals such as java man have been based on things like the tooth of a dog found fifty yards from the jaw bone of a monkey.

I repeat, who's been filling your head full of nonsense? Complete skeletons of indisputably hominid species have been found by the hundreds.

Evolution will one day be laughed at

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- so you folks keep telling us. For some perspective check out this web page on The Imminent Demise of Evolution. Creationists have been continuously predicting that evolution was about to come crashing down any day now since 1840... That page contais quotes predicting the crash of evolution from 1840, 1850, 1878, 1895, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1912, 1922, 1929, 1935, 1940, 1961, 1963, 1970, 1975, 1976, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002. But surely, they're finally right *this* time, eh?

as every major scientific discovery points to divine design,

Oh? Please cite some, if you can.

just as Albert Einstein found.

And please quote him on this matter.

288 posted on 11/13/2004 5:51:35 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: hosepipe
It takes faith to believe in evolution.

No it doesn't. It takes understanding, knowledge, and evidence.

You gotta believe in something why not evolution?.. Calling it science is the rub though..

How do you figure that? Evolution is indeed science. If you feel it isn't, you're invited to explain, *specifically*, why.

289 posted on 11/13/2004 5:56:26 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: VadeRetro; PatrickHenry
A showcase! "Your kids could be learning THIS instead of real biology!"


290 posted on 11/13/2004 6:02:46 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
here's a critique of Boxhorn's 'Observed Instances of Speciation' you might be interested in:

Why did you think that we "might be interested in" a severely flawed critique by a guy who admits that he's "not even a scientist, merely a journalist"?

And is it too much to ask that once in a while you post something from a *science* journal, instead of stuff like this from a crank who runs an "Alternative Science" [sic] website defending "psychics" like the fraud Uri Gellar?

And while we're at it, why do so many of the creationist "sources" turn out to be really fringe folks like this?

291 posted on 11/13/2004 6:25:44 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Crank, tinfoil, marginally-sane yet incoherent arguments Bump.


292 posted on 11/13/2004 6:29:23 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo; Carling
A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s “29 Evidences for Macroevolution” , by Ashby Camp

ROFL! Good old Ashby Camp... Creationists can't refute Theobald's essay themselves, so they invariably cast around until they trip over Camp's "rebuttal" and fling it into the discussion in the hopes it might be cogent -- too bad it isn't.

Here's what I wrote the last time a FReeper creationist tried that:

which has been thoroughly debunked in A Critique of 29 Evidences for Macroevolution as well as on several threads right here on FreeRepublic.

Oh, puh-leaze... "Frantically denounced" is not the same thing as "thoroughly debunked". Let's take a look at your link, shall we?

Ashby Camp attempts to "debunk" item "4.2 DNA Coding Redundancy", but he screws it up royally. First, he attempts to summarize the argument as:

The alleged prediction and fulfillment are:

1. If universal common ancestry is true, then ubiquitous genes will have the same or a similar codon sequence in two or more species.

2. Ubiquitous genes have the same or a similar codon sequence in two or more species.

This COMPLETELY misses the point of the DNA Coding Redundancy argument. In fact, it practically *reverses* the actual argument entirely. It's a downright laughable attempt at summarizing the actual argument, and grossly misrepresents the original point being made.

Ashby Camp can hardly "debunk" an argument if he doesn't even understand it to start with.

Instead, the actual argument which Camp is misrepresenting goes like this: If modern life arose through common descent, then the redundancy in the DNA coding (which allows *many* different DNA sequences to produce *identical* protein results) should result in very similar DNA sequences between recently-related species (for the same protein), less similar DNA sequences for less-recently-related species, and very less similar DNA sequences for distantly-related species. For *all* species relationships and *all* coding sequences.

That's *quite* a bit different than Camp's ridiculously oversimplified version, which grossly distorts the above into "some sequences will be found to be similar, somewhere". The *actual* prediction is *far* more specific, and *vastly* less likely to occur by chance or some other method which does not involve common descent. The actual prediction makes testable, narrow predictions about *every* ubiquitous gene sequence in *every* species. It's extremely specific, and leaves no wiggle-room for observations which might violate the prediction.

Camp then uses his own skewed version of the argument to say, "It is not a prediction of the hypothesis of universal common ancestry or the more specific hypothesis of Neo-Darwinism that ubiquitous genes will have the same or a similar codon sequence in two or more species." That's true enough for Camp's distorted version, but *NOT* for the original.

Camp further claims: "If the codon sequence in such a gene was not the same or “similar” in two or more species, evolutionists simply would vary the time of divergence and/or the mutation rate, which is claimed to vary for different genes, to account for the differences." No, absolutely not. What Camp is missing is that this line of evidence applies not to absolute amounts of differences, but *relative* amounts of differences. Yes, the neutral mutation rate for some genes is larger than others. But that's irrelevant to this line of evidence, because whatever the mutation rate for a given gene, what's being compared is larger differences versus smaller differences when examining multiple pairs of species. "Larger" is distinguishable from "smaller" no matter what the absolute sizes might be.

Camp reveals his further misunderstandings when he writes: "Once again, the real argument being made is theological, not scientific. The claim is that, since God could make a gene for a protein with many different codon sequences, he would not have used an identical or similar series of codons in the cytochrome c gene of separately created species." No, Camp blows it again. There is, in fact, absolutely no argument of any sort in 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution about what God might or might not choose to do. That's Camp's own hallucination. What's worse, he obviously entirely misunderstands the *evidenciary* arguments being made in 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution. What makes this even more unforgiveable is that the points that Camp misses are spelled out explicitly in one of the "29+ Evidences" pages (this one).

What Camp entirely misses is that the 29+ lines of evidence for macroevolution are *not* given as "proofs". Nowhere is the argument made that there could be no other possible explanation for a particular type of observation, or that any given observation might not match the predictions of some other theory as well. That's *always* a "given" in science, because there's *always* some other theor(ies) which could likewise explain the evidence (if nothing else, some sort of unrecognized variation on the current theory, or even something radically different that no one's thought of).

What Camp misses entirely, because he's not a scientist (he's a lawyer) is that you don't "prove" a given theory by allegedly presenting something which can't be explained any *other* way (because this is almost always impossible to do even in principle), instead you *support* a theory by working out as many of its implications (i.e. predictions) as you can, and then check to see (via examination of known evidence, and experiment, and other methods) whether all observations you can manage to do actually "fit" the theory (and more importantly, whether any are found which *don't*).

The more evidence which falls into line to match the expectations of the theory, the more the theory is strengthened. Any evidence which appears to be a blatant violation of the expectations of the theory weighs *very* heavily against it. Furthermore, a theory is very much strengthened if the evidence which matches its predictions are from not just one type of prediction or line of argument, but from many. In the 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution page, there are over *29* independent lines of evidence, all of which beautifully match the predictions of the theories of common descent and macroevolution. And each line of evidence is supported by *thousands*, and in some cases *millions*, of individual pieces of evidence.

In short, evolution has an enormous amount of evidence supporting it.

I strongly invite readers to ignore Gore3000's "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" attempt, and actually go *read* 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution for yourself (yes, all several pages). It'll take a couple hours, but it's well worth the time. After you read it, you'll understand why creationists are being hugely dishonest when they claim that there is "no" evidence supporting evolution, or that evolution is not a "scientific" or "predictive" theory. The pages at that link show in great detail how empty those claims are, even if you choose argue with a few particular points or disagree with its conclusion. There's an enormous amount of meticulous, well-researched evidence for evolution, and that page gives a large taste. Don't let anyone tell you there's not. And I trust any reader with an open mind will see for themselves how strong the evolutionary foundation truly is, contrary to hte "house of cards" declarations by its opponents. Again, even if you disagree with the conclusion, at least be honest enough to admit there's a lot of good evidence behind it -- if you take the time to look.

Camp blusters in several sections about how "well, maybe God chose to make things the way that the evidence indicates". Fine, maybe he did. Feel free to go off and develop a "scientific theory of creationism". But note that you can't just say (as Camp does), "maybe God wanted to do it in a way that only *appears* to match the expected results of evolution, we don't know why", because that's *not* a *scientific* prediction, because it doesn't let you predict *ahead* of your observations what you think you're going to find and why. As soon as you develop a "scientific theory of creationism" which *does* claim to grasp enough of God's processes and reasons to be able to predict (repeat: *predict*) enough of the details of His works that you'll be able to test your theory against the evidence (and also honestly deal with it if your predictions are falsified), *then* you'll have something that can truly be called "scientific". So far, no one has offered such a theory. "God could make it any way at all if he wanted to for His own mysterious reasons" does *not* qualify, because it is neither predictive nor falsifiable. It is, in fact, a declaration of *lack* of knowledge rather than a contribution to science (which is the *accumulation* of what we know and can confidently count on and predict about the world).

Camp even unwittingly admits this when he writes, "But even if there were no unknown design constraints on the gene for cytochrome c, how could one be sure that God would not conserve codon sequences when creating cytochrome c gene in separate species?" Yes, exactly. If one "can't be sure" -- if there's no way to test the unknowability of God's whims or predict what they will be in a given case -- then it's a philosophical issue, but it's not a scientific theory.

Camp's concluding paragraph for this section of his "debunking" only further reveals his misunderstandings:

Thus, the similarity of codon sequences in the cytochrome c gene of humans and chimps does not “make it look exactly like we are genealogically related.”
This quote appears nowhere in 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution. Camp is either summarizing, or was working off an older version of the web page. In any case, he misunderstands it. The meaning is that the gene similarities and differences between man/chimp are exactly the type we would expect to see if we were genealogically related, and closely so. It's not a claim that the gene sequences by themselves are some sort of irrefutable proof that we are.
That conclusion only follows if one ignores the possibility of unknown design constraints, insists that God introduce novelty for novelty’s sake, and denies that there could be other divine purposes, such as sending a biotic message, for the pattern of similarity.
See above. Camp repeatedly misunderstands the argument(s) which are actually being made in 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, and thus his "debunking" misses the mark entirely.

Similar major flaws are present in the rest of his alleged "debunking" article. And you have "forgotten" to mention that talk.origins itself posts a lengthy rebuttal to Camp's sloppy 'critique'. In it, they describe his attempts to critique their material (and quite fairly, in my opinion), as:

Mr. Camp's critique is error-ridden in various ways, and is primarily characterized by:

  1. Straw man arguments
  2. Red herrings
  3. Self-contradictions
  4. Equivocation
  5. Two wrongs make a right
  6. Fallacies of accident and converse accident
  7. Ignoratio elenchi
  8. Naive theological assumptions
  9. Insufficient knowledge of basic biology, molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics
  10. Misunderstanding of the scientific method
  11. Forwarding of untestable competing "hypotheses"
  12. Mischaracterization of evolutionary theory
  13. Misleading mis-quotes
  14. Fallacies of accent
  15. Distortion of scientific controversies
  16. Arguments from authority
  17. False analogies

The repeated use of these errors and others in Camp's "Critique" will be abundantly clear in the following rebuttal.

...and then they go on to very thoroughly document those errors in Camp's critique.
So, Michael_Michaelangelo, can I rely on you not to post Camp's error-ridden critique again, lest you mislead more readers?

And yet again, I must ask -- if the case against evolution is so good, why do you usually have to look to lawyers and journalists and such for "support", instead of peer-reviewed works by scientists working within their fields?

293 posted on 11/13/2004 6:41:34 AM PST by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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To: Ichneumon
[ it takes faith to believe in evolution. / No it doesn't. It takes understanding, knowledge, and evidence.]

It takes faith to get into your car and go from point A to point B.. and there is absolutely NO evidence one species evolved from another, NONE.. evidence to the contrary exists though.

[ You gotta believe in something why not evolution?.. Calling it science is the rub though.. / How do you figure that? Evolution is indeed science. If you feel it isn't, you're invited to explain, *specifically*, why. ]

O.K. evolution is a pseudoscience.. A science of explaining variations of unprovable stuff.. by hokum and pokum.. basically a scam to support godless figments of academic and Utopian dreams.. much loved by left wing ideologies.. and used as a base to support leftist political clap trap. Also, used to justify entire wings of theoretical study in acedemic institutions for the study of questionable events and science fiction like scenarios.. Cannot disprove evolution though. You cannot disprove something that did not happen.. Creationism is also a theory.. Whole colleges are devoted that too.. Humans are not really very smart..

Could be thats why humans are the only living creature on this planet that needs toilet paper.. in some form.. Forcing the inspection of a humans daily bottom line production hopefully at least once a day.. That could be to force a little humility and a smigen of gratitude those being the rarest commodities on the planet. How did I get so smart ?.. I'm not any smarter than you are. I'm discussing this with you..
Did humans evolve to need toilet paper?. Hmmmm......... NAH!...

294 posted on 11/13/2004 7:36:19 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to included some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Ichneumon
And yet again, I must ask -- if the case against evolution is so good, why do you usually have to look to lawyers and journalists and such for "support", instead of peer-reviewed works by scientists working within their fields?

Howdy.

Why would I need "support?" The evidence 'is what it is.' I see purposeful Design; you do not. There are a bunch of peer-reviewed papers out there that support ID.

I'm just here presenting information to those who are interested. If you aren't interested in Camp's rebuttal, that's fine. There are new people here that have no idea who he is.

By the way, the last time I checked, there's nothing that has come out of TO that's peer-reviewed. Isn't that where you get a majority of *your* information?

295 posted on 11/13/2004 8:02:58 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: Ichneumon
And is it too much to ask that once in a while you post something from a *science* journal

Good idea! I'll try to do that a little more. Would you like to review the material and my commentary before I post them? I wouldn't want to put the wrong twist on an important discovery. I should know by now that every new discovery supports evolution, right? Just not your grandpappy's version of it.

296 posted on 11/13/2004 8:15:26 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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Can't we discuss the evidence of origins apart from our worldviews?
297 posted on 11/13/2004 8:43:06 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: Ichneumon
Interesting. I was going through some of your exchanges with Gore3000 and came across this (regarding ring species):

"Actually, the ring species you keep showing do not even prove speciation. The determinant of speciation is ability to produce viable mates. The so called 'scientists' who did these studies did not even bother to see if these salamanders and these birds could mate with each other."

"Further, the statements made as to the proof of 'speciation' are so ridiculous as to be totally laughable. The birds for example were called different species by these numbskulls because they had two yellow stripes and different songs than the ones at the start of the ring. Clearly according to the criteria of these morons of evolution, Englishmen and Chinamen are different species since they speak different languages and have different skin color." ~G3K

=======

Is this true? Did they conduct experiments to see if they could mate or not?

298 posted on 11/13/2004 8:57:56 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: Ichneumon
I've said it before and I'll say it again -- anti-evolutionists should really learn *something* about evolution, and about science in general, before they attempt to critique it.

If they learned something about it, they wouldn't be able to put forth their fallacious arguments.

299 posted on 11/13/2004 10:16:38 AM PST by WildTurkey
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To: Ichneumon

I'm not a Creationist. I'm just not dimwitted enough to accept evolutionist theory as a scientific law. What is it with some of you? Not completely adhering to evolutionist theory somehow means I have to be a creationist?

Black/White
Night/Day...

Some of you should step out into the gray sometimes. It's good for the mind.


300 posted on 11/13/2004 1:27:21 PM PST by Carling (What happened to Sandy Burglar's Docs?)
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