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Laser Etching ID Proposed For Handgun Ammo
"Inside News" Firearms Marketing Group | October 2004 | Denny Fallon

Posted on 10/29/2004 9:29:52 PM PDT by Travis McGee

LASER ETCHING IDENTIFICATION PROPOSED FOR HANDGUN AMMO

If a proposal from the California Attorney General's Office is enacted, all handgun ammunition possessed in public or sold or imported into the nation's most populous state will be laser etched with an individual serial number.

TRhe high-tech tracking system would require all cartridges in a box packaged for retail sale to have matching identification numbers. The package would be scanned and the information linked to the identity of the purchaser.

The micro-stamping system used to etch the serial numbers was developed by Seattle-based Ravensforge Inc., whose technology was subjected to a successful torture test supervised by Randy Rossi, director of the firearms division of the California Dept. of Justice.

"WE TRIED TO PROVE THIS DOESN'T WORK."

Two hundred rounds were fired at close range into automobile doors, wood and concrete walls, ballistic vests, rubber matting and gelatin blocks simulating the density of human tissue. Of the 181 slugs recovered, including soft lead bullets that flattened upon impact, the etched code numbers were identified on all but one round by a standard electronic microscope.

"We tried to prove this doesn't work," said Rossi. "To have it work virtually every time, I was very surprised."

The calibers tested included 9mm, .38, .40 and .45, but not .22, the most popular sporting caliber in California and throughout the nation.

Rossi and his colleagues believe by tracking ammunition they will have a powerful and accurate weapon in identifying the source of criminal use of firearms.

"THIS WON'T SOLVE EVERY CRIME, BUT IT WILL SOLVE A LOT OF CRIMES."

Rossi emphasized that the proposal would exempt sport shooters who reload their own cartridges.

"We could get some gang bangers who all of a sudden take an interest and study reloading, but I hardly think so," said Rossi. "These are the same people who won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime. This won't solve every crime, but it will solve a lot of crmes."

GARY MEHALIK, the marketing director for the NSSF, warned that until the technology could be applied to .22 caliber ammunition it would be far from universally effective. Coupled with the estimated cost of one cent or less per etching, Mehalik was skeptical of the technology's practicality.

"We'd have to analyze teh costs," said Mehalik, "but I can tell you that it would create a logistical nightmare inside the current production systems."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: amendment2; ammo; ammunition; bang; banglist; bloat; bullets; cali; california; cw2; enemywithin; fmcdh; guns; laser; lasertag; miltech; wcii
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To: Travis McGee

Tough, almost impossible to enforce IMHO that given the number of relaoders already out there...and the amount of brass already out there.


61 posted on 10/29/2004 11:49:17 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: ApesForEvolution

Just think
Now someone can flick a few bits...And.... You have purchased the bullet that shot JFK I


62 posted on 10/29/2004 11:49:32 PM PDT by quietolong
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To: Jeff Head
Unenforceable only in the physical sense. But reloading without the required permits and licenses will be a felony, effectively outlawing all those who reload "off the books." This will be part of the intended effect: to criminalize shooting one cut at a time.
63 posted on 10/29/2004 11:52:08 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee

In California, it's not too hard to imagine that unmarked ammo smuggling from Mexico will vastly increase. The illegals will bring it in with them for their compadres waiting in California, who will save it up in large caches.

As for the "rest of us" I am surprised to not even see one BLOAT yet. If anything would be a BLOAT alert this would be.


64 posted on 10/29/2004 11:56:32 PM PDT by The Red Zone (The reason they're trying to starve her isn't because she's dying, but because she isn't. [Supercat])
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To: Travis McGee
Manufacturers will include the code in the bar coding on each box of bullets, so retailers will be able to scan the box of bullets and the purchasers drivers license and have the required information without any significant expense of time.

So...You're tied the barcode on the box...not the actual bullet in the cartridge in the box...

Too many ways for the contents to get switched between the factory and the purchaser...Reasonable Doubt. The cost may be minimal for the actual etching of the bullet...but developing a secure, tamper proof package to ensure the contents match the barcode is going to increase that minimal cost. If law enforcement wants to rely on the etched code for a conviction they will need to prove beyond a resonable doubt that the bullet used in the crime actually came from the box with the matching bar code...

This whole thing gets convoluted when they talk about re-using character strings on different calibers...then saying they can positively identify a bullet with as little as 20% of the base remaining...20% of a .38 would look an awful lot like 20% of a 9mm...

65 posted on 10/30/2004 12:05:13 AM PDT by in the Arena (James Wayne Herrick, Jr. Captain/US Air Force - MIA - Laos - 27 October 1969)
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To: in the Arena

yeah, "re using" codes sounds so idiotic. seems to me that a group of 10 random nerds could design a system like this better. dumb donut eaters.


66 posted on 10/30/2004 12:08:13 AM PDT by The Red Zone (The reason they're trying to starve her isn't because she's dying, but because she isn't. [Supercat])
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To: Travis McGee

it never ends.

one day when we finish with the raggers, we will have work to do here.


67 posted on 10/30/2004 12:10:59 AM PDT by wardaddy (The only thing we share with collectivists and ragheads is death.)
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To: Travis McGee
re: 5.4 billion bullets per annum USA... Another site extrapolated from lead sales to ammo mfr and arrived at

"Using 70 grains (0.16 oz. 4.54 g) as an arbitrarily assumed average bullet mass allows the estimation that the 85-118 million pounds of bullet lead produces about 8.5- 11.8 billion bullets per year

In any case the laser-tagging is going to involve rather large serial numbers; i.e. cal; plant; yr of mfr; type of bullet;etc. etc. Seems to be a rather cumbersome database. Seems that all surplus ammo would immediately become contraband as well as the stockpiled personal ammo. Special permits all around doncha know for wheel weights, smelters, molds, solder, and oh yeah all those printed circuit boards with solder that could be salvaged,etc.

My goodness!! I forgot all about steel ball bearings from scrap yards. Sounds to me like a super-size ATF in the making. Just like your novel's STU gruppen fuhrer's ambitions.

68 posted on 10/30/2004 12:28:46 AM PDT by Covenantor (CBS Counterfeit But Sincere)
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To: in the Arena

Check the pic I posted back around 45. The number is micro etched repeatedly all over the base of the slug, dozens of times. That's how only 20% of the slug will give an entire number.


69 posted on 10/30/2004 12:41:59 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: wardaddy

Yep, sooner or later we'll have to take out the trash.


70 posted on 10/30/2004 12:42:35 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Covenantor
Lots more gun laws will make lots more gun criminals, and lots more job openings and bigger budgets at BATFE.
71 posted on 10/30/2004 12:43:36 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee

I hope I'm alive to do my part.

I know my boys and one of my girls at least will be prepared.


72 posted on 10/30/2004 12:48:06 AM PDT by wardaddy (The only thing we share with collectivists and ragheads is death.)
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To: Travis McGee

Before any of this becomes a nationwide hinderance to the 2nd, we're going to have to stand our ground and tell them 'enough is enough'. Just like if Kerry wins and our rights vanish overnight.

At some point, enough of us are going to notice that the temperature in our pan has increased beyond the zone of confortably numb, and the true meaning of the 2nd will once again be understood by tyrants.

In reality, you'd think that the puppet masters of the Left would realize that keeping President Bush in office might not be a bad life insurance policy for the Left in general. By pushing their commie utopia on us wholesale their fate will be sealed.


73 posted on 10/30/2004 12:56:50 AM PDT by datura (Liberalism resembles advanced syphilis..)
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To: wardaddy; datura; archy

Offhand, I can't think of a recent example of a nation with ten million scoped deer rifles being faced with millions of traitors in their midst, in wartime.

Archy used to mention Finland, but I'm hazy on the history. I guess it went badly for their communists.


74 posted on 10/30/2004 1:03:48 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
Anything they can do to reduce and/or eliminate firearms owners.

One person with a rifle can control multiples, though, even with semi-auto only. With full auto, the ratio is estimated to be one to 100 civillians. Even 30 million like-minded gun owners would be a 'landslide vote', if, (God forbid!), it ever became necessary.

If we remain vigillant now and continue to debunk this crap, and teach our kids and grandchildren the empowerment of being able to defend and feed themselves and their neighbors, we will continue to have a Republic, despite the twits who would undermine it at the most fundamental level.

75 posted on 10/30/2004 1:21:27 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (I'm from North Dakota and I'm all FOR Global Warming! Bring it ON!)
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probably doesn't work on wadcuters


76 posted on 10/30/2004 1:23:58 AM PDT by KneelBeforeZod (Deus Lo Volt!)
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To: Travis McGee
AHHH-HAHAHAHAHA!

File it off, ready to go.

Government is NOT all-powerful. That's reserved for GOD!

77 posted on 10/30/2004 2:19:04 AM PDT by FierceDraka ("Support John Kerry - Or ELSE!" - The New Slogan of the Democratic Party)
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To: Travis McGee

Hey this is a great idea for custom messages on bullets. I'll take a box of .308 with Osama's name on 'em.


78 posted on 10/30/2004 3:23:57 AM PDT by etcetera (Not our power, but our will, is the target.)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; freedomlover; ...
The statists never tire, do they?

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

79 posted on 10/30/2004 6:22:21 AM PDT by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism.)
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To: clee1

I was thinking along the same lines, that if they start this it will be a boom for the reloading market.


80 posted on 10/30/2004 6:26:28 AM PDT by Bottom_Gun (Crush depth dummy)
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