New Pope Book Says Communism Was 'Necessary Evil'(Pope calls COMMUNISM as ""EVIL"" as NAZISM)

MyWay, (Reuters) ^ | OCT 7 2004 | Philip Pullella

[carlo3b]

New Pope Book Says Communism Was 'Necessary Evil'
Oct 7, 6:23 AM (ET)

By Philip Pullella
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Communism was a "necessary evil" that God allowed to happen in the 20th century in order to create opportunities for good after its demise, Pope John Paul says in his new book.

"Memory and Identity," which is due to be published early next year, is the ailing 84-year-old pontiff's latest and perhaps last book intended for a mass circulation audience. All of his previous books have been international bestsellers.

In one chapter, the pope, who lived through both Nazism and Communism in his native Poland, reflects on the meaning of evil in life and in history.

"I have personally experienced the reality of the 'ideologies of evil'. It remains indelibly fixed in my memory," he says in the book, which is a series of conversations he had in Polish with fellow philosophers in the summer of 1993.

Excerpts of the book, which was announced Wednesday at the Frankfurt Book Fair, were made available by the Italian publisher Rizzoli.

The pope, who has been credited with helping bring about the fall of Communism after his shock election in 1978, reveals that even an optimist like him had moments of pessimism during his life under Communist oppression.

"To me it was quite clear that Communism would last much longer than Nazism had done. For how long? It was hard to predict," he writes.

"There was a sense that this evil was in some way necessary for the world and for mankind. It can happen, in fact, that in certain particular human situations, evil is revealed as somehow useful inasmuch as it creates opportunities for good."

Many historians believe it was his support for Poland's free trade union Solidarity after he became pope in 1978 that helped the union go on to form the East Bloc's first free government.

NAZI "BESTIALITY"

The pope, whom Jews have credited with improving Catholic relations with them more than any pontiff in history, also reflects on Nazism, which he calls a "bestiality."

"The Lord God allowed Nazism 12 years of existence ... evidently this was the limit imposed by Divine Providence upon that sort of folly," he says.

"The full extent of the evil that was raging through Europe was not seen by everyone, not even by those of us who were living at the epicenter. We were totally swallowed up in a great eruption of evil," he says.

"Both the Nazis during the war and, later, the Communists in Eastern Europe, tried to hide what they were doing from public opinion. For a long time, the West did not want to believe in the extermination of the Jews," he writes.

The pope's royalties from "Memory and Identity" will go to charity as have his previous titles.

[PMCarey]

He's had a tough life (at least until he was elected Pontiff), and he deserves respect for that.

I think his life became tougher after he became Pontiff.

[SoothingDave]

In 1933 the Vatican signed a Concordat with Germany

Big whoop. The Vatican has had such agreements with countless secular powers over its history. They detail the relationship between the Church and the State involved. Only an idiot takes such as evidence of secret conspiracies or as a blanket approval of all actions a secular ruler then undertakes.

SD

[Grzegorz 246]

What's your problem ?

[american colleen]

In 1933 the Vatican signed a Concordat with Germany making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in that country.

No, that is not correct. If you read the concordat (it is online) you will find that it gave 'freedom of worship' to Catholics and it banned clergy from political office (sep. of church and state). Which of course did not happen as Catholic political groups were shut down (adherents ended up in the camps) and priests and bishops were imprisoned and executed. In 1933 the Church viewed the Nazi party as a barrier to the spread of communism but quickly found out the truth and the pope issued "Mit brennender Sorge" ("With Burning Anxiety" - a statement condemning what was going on in Germany) and the Nazis started a concerted attack on the Church in Germany.

The 'Currency' and 'Immorality' trials that peaked in 1935 and 1936, resulted in the imprisonment and fining of hundreds of clergy. Because the various Protestant Churches were split amongst themselves and so easier to control, the 'Reich Church' was created - a national Church with a Bible and 'Mein Kampf' on the altar.

[Light Speed]

Oh Pleeeze!

Vatican saw Hitlers ways from the early 30's.

and still threw in with him....and so did the Catholic Church in other axis alligned or occupied countries who cozied up to Fascism.

Photos in my previous post say a Thousand words

you can deny my typing.....but you can't deny the Photo's

[american colleen]

Vatican saw Hitlers ways from the early 30's...and still threw in with him....and so did the Catholic Church in other axis alligned or occupied countries who cozied up to Fascism.

First off, the pictures you posted... you've got Franz von Papen as the papal nuncio when he was actually the vice-chancellor... of course he would have brokered the concordat... have you read the concordat? You seem to believe the concordate was something other than what it was... you should read it for the truth of the matter and not the opinion of the Jack Chick website you post from. The books mentioned on that site are Jack Chick books and nothing in them is sourced - just garbage spewed by a guy who makes his living (and lives his faith) off of distorting history to defend his hatred of the Catholic Church.

You may spin past the rest of what I post here, but it is material that can be traced to letters and archives and legitimate authors.

Here are some of Pacelli’s words and deeds from the early 1920’s to 1946, together with comments and related statements by others.

1917-25 From the day of his arrival in Munich as nuncio to Bavaria in 1917, Eugenio Pacelli sets a pattern of conduct that he will follow throughout his entire priesthood—he helps the poor and suffering, opposes the violent, enunciates clear Christian principles, attempts to settle differences with the tyrannies of the right and left by patient negotiations, and seeks protection for the Church in her mission of spreading God's word. The post-war years in Germany are a time of hunger, poverty, armed radical groups, revolution, confusion, a time of madness. Pacelli stocks the Nuncio's residence with food and clothing for the poor, especially for the children. He visits prisoners of war, engages in endless discussions, is crippled by the flu, and attacked by revolutionaries. His attackers are members of a Communist movement called Spartakus, which wins control of Bavaria in 1919. The revolutionaries rake the Nuncio's residence with gun fire, and insult and threaten its occupants. After a frightening confrontation, Pacelli persuades them to leave without any blood being shed.

In the early 20’s the Nazis are just one of several violent fringe groups, but by 1923 they are able to gather more than 2,000 armed fanatics and attempt to seize control in Bavaria by force. They are unsuccessful, but their bloody putsch gives them martyrs and attracts more desperate men to their ranks.

By 1925 their potential for violence is clear to Pacelli, particularly after he reads Hitler’s Mein Kampf, which is published that year. Though hatred of Jews dominates Nazi rhetoric, hatred of the Church is not far behind. A few Nazis claim that the long-term threat of the Church makes it their most dangerous enemy. Pacelli tells friends in diplomatic circles that a "new manifestation" of the anti-Christ has arisen, and calls Hitler "obsessed," violent, ready "to walk over corpses" and destroy anything in his way. Naturally, he also says this to Rome.

1928 On March 28, in response to the concern of Pius XI and Pacelli, the Vatican's Holy Office issues a decree condemning Nazi racial hatred of Jews: "Moved by Christian charity, the Holy See is obligated to protect the Jewish people against unjust vexations and, just as it reprobates all rancor and conflicts between peoples, it particularly condemns unreservedly hatred against the people once chosen by God, the hatred that commonly goes by the name of anti-Semitism."

This decree is remembered and quoted at key moments in the coming years.

1929 Pacelli is appointed Papal Secretary of State.

1930 Cardinal Pacelli assumes new duties. L'Osservatore Romano, which speaks the mind of the Holy Father and Church, runs a series of articles from the office of Cardinal Secretary of State severely criticizing Nazism. The October 11, 1930 article declares: "Belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with the Catholic Conscience." These pieces are reprinted in diocesan newspapers around the world, especially in Germany, where bishops and priests emphasize that the teaching is official Church teaching.

1932 In the 1932 German elections Catholics overwhelmingly reject Hitler with less than 15% of Catholics voting for him. But with strong support from other constituencies in Germany, this election makes the Nazis a major party and leads directly to Hitler assuming total power.

1933 January 30, Hitler becomes Chancellor, and Germany is irrevocably changed.

The Concordat: "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Under intense pressure from Hitler, including terrorizing members of the Catholic Center Party, Pacelli agrees to negotiate a legal agreement between Germany and the Holy See. The agreement, called a concordat, is a clever propaganda stunt by Hitler. Simply by asking the Church to negotiate, Hitler makes himself look good. Pacelli does not trust Hitler, but wants a legal basis on which to protest. Without a concordat there will be no legal grounds to appeal Nazi encroachments on the Church's freedom. The concordat defines Church rights within the greater rights of the State. Despite misgivings the concordat seems wise at the time. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich comments: "With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered."

Back in Rome, Pacelli tells the British ambassador: "I had to choose between an agreement and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich." He says a pistol had been held to his head, and that he felt he was negotiating "with the devil himself."

You should educate yourself on the history surrounding this period... and you'd find that it was not the Catholic Church that caved to Nazism and Hitler. Look and see what made up the state church - the 'reich church'.

[Light Speed]

You are compelled to defend the Faith.....I understand.

Lets be clear on this one point.....not all the clergy,nor the majority of Catholics in WW-2 were crazed Jew haters like Jack Chick supposes.

I used Google image search and Yahoo....as I was looking for Franz Von Papen and the 1933 Concordat signatory with Pacelli.

I used the photos..which happened to be at a Jack Chick site..and the name info attached.

The photo's are legit....the names are legit.

There was no Jack Chick spew in my post.

Franz Papens quote is Franz Papen Himself ...not a Jack Chick corruption try.

I focused on Papen..as he is a dark figure in the Reichs history..and is clearly alligned to the Vatican.
Papen was part of dissolving many Catholic group realities in Germany...as they competed with the Hitler Youth movement....and there is more.

In my first post..I noted the intrigues of the Russian Orthodox Church...and then forwarded the Aurther Andersen Accounting cover up ..which the World Jewish Congress signed off on.

as I said....everything on the square.

I'm not going to post more dark details from WW-2.. the point is well made by the Photos....which speak volumes.

oh..and Yes...Papen was vice chancellor.

Tell me...are you ready to run to Papens defense too?

Nuremburg trial transcripts at Yale University....Avalon project.
hey..old Franz was aquitted....neato huh....did the Vatican have any part to play in that : )

Papen knew Hitler and knew his party,...knew exactly what the Catholic Church was getting into.
The Church signed the Concordat...the Church was part and parcell of the Reich there after.

Stories of Catholics hiding Jews and Catholics being interned in camps does not remove the main focus of opporendi.

They Church was complicit in enabling the Reich to raise up demented youth and did not resist the corruption which ultimately brought Germany to its ruin.

Germany is but one aspect...there is The Balkans,Italy...Spain.

[Grzegorz 246]

"Stories of Catholics hiding Jews and Catholics being interned in camps does not remove the main focus of opporendi."

What's your problem Light Speed ?
Catholic Church supported Nazis as much as Jews killed Jews during WW2.

[Light Speed]

You have got to be kidding!!!

Whats up...my posts not Gory enough for you...Greg-gory?

[Grzegorz 246]

"You have got to be kidding!!!"

No.

"Whats up...my posts not Gory enough for you...Greg-gory?"

Gory ?

[american colleen]

Franz Papens quote is Franz Papen Himself ...not a Jack Chick corruption try.

The source of that quote can be found ONLY in a book written by an author affiliated with Jack Chick.

I'm not defending Von Papen at all but the issue is not black or white as you suppose. He was a product of extraordinarily unstable times and he seemed to honestly believe that his conservative party could reign in Hitler (who had more political support than the conservative party had) if he threw in his lot with the Nazi government. Von Papen was no doubt an oportunist who played both sides of the fence, most likely to save his own skin (which was, like every other member of the German gov't at that time, under constant threat of death) or at the very least, to keep his positions of prestige and power.

Regarding Von Papen and the concordat of 1933, read it. It did not protect the Church in Germany at all. Neither did the one signed by the various heads of the Protestant congregations a few years before. In fact, the earlier 'agreement' allowed Hitler to form, with the help of the Protestant denoms, the 'Reich Church' which heroes like Bonhoeffer railed against.

Bishop Ludwig Muller, leader of the Reich Church in Germany, greets Adolf Hitler during World War II.I focused on Papen..as he is a dark figure in the Reichs history..and is clearly alligned to the Vatican.

Why and how is he "clearly aligned" to the Vatican? Because he was a Catholic? Because he signed a concordat (which you have not read) as Vice Chancellor (for 7 mos) of Germany?

Nuremburg trial transcripts at Yale University....Avalon project. hey..old Franz was aquitted....neato huh....did the Vatican have any part to play in that : )

Yes, the Nuremburg trials were merely a puppet of the Vatican! Good catch! Now you know the secret! Please prove your assertion.

The Church signed the Concordat...the Church was part and parcell of the Reich there after.

Read the concordat. Please. Stop showing your ignorance. And if the Church was part and parcel of the Reich, it didn't stop three million Polish Catholics and thousands of German priests and nuns from the Nazi concentration camps. At Dacchau alone approx. 2700 priests were imprisoned.

When Pope Pius XII died on October 9, 1958, Golda Meir, then Israeli delegate to the United Nations, sent official condolences: “When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.”

Dr. Raphael Cantoni, a leader in Italy’s Jewish Assistance Committee added, “The Church and the papacy have saved Jews as much and insofar as they could Christians. Six million of my co-religionists have been murdered by the Nazis... but there would have been many more victims had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII.”

Moshe Sharett, later Israel’s second Prime Minister, met with Pius in the closing stages of the war and said, "I told [him] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews. . . . We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."

You can find those above quotes everywhere on the internet if you care to do so. They were in major publications and newspapers at that time. I doubt you'll find them on a Jack Chick site if that is where you are looking. :-)

They Church was complicit in enabling the Reich to raise up demented youth and did not resist the corruption which ultimately brought Germany to its ruin.

I think you are speaking of the Reich Church?

You know of course that Hitler hatched a plan to kidnap Pope Pius XII?

For a well researched article on the Church and the Nazi Regime, written by a Jewish professor in Europe, documenting that many more Jews were executed in non-Catholic countries than were executed in Catholic countries (exception is Poland because Poland was ruled by the Nazis) - and why - you should read this article.

[Light Speed]

YOU WIN

YOU WIN

YOU WIN

You can't site anything about the Catholic church without having some persistant Marian type or Jesuit wannabe coming for you.

I'm going to put a lit cigarette into my arm the next time I notice a Catholic anything thread here at FR.

[american colleen]

You can't site anything about the Catholic church without having some persistant Marian type or Jesuit wannabe coming for you.

You just can't stop with the put downs, can you?

Post lies and someone will always set you straight.

There is plenty to fault some of the Catholic clergy and laity for in Nazi Germany but what you posted was just completely untrue. Plus it showed your narrow view and partial knowledge of history.

And I notice that you haven't dealt at all with who and what made up the Reich Church. Hint: it wasn't Catholics.

And you should still read the concordat so you can set yourself straight. It had nothing to do with 'making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in the country' as you wrote - in fact, Germany wasn't even a Catholic country. It basically allowed the Church the freedom to practice their religion w/o interference by the gov't and it prohibited the Church from criticizing the gov't.

[Conservative til I die]

By all means please leave. And quickly.

[Atlantic Friend]

By all means I'll stay. And you'll have to live with it, unless you're appointed FR's next Admin Moderator.

[the invisib1e hand]

welp, as wretched as the assertion is, it's like this:

if there is a God, and He is omnipotent, then either

he was unaware of the evil or
He tolerated it.
in either event, it's His prerogative to do so.

Man's mandate is clear: to fight it.

[Bart Ristuccia]

I think what the Pope meant was, sometimes the evils of the world such as Communism and Nazis have to be allowed, or I should say have been allowed to a certain point to erupt to the surface, that is until the evils are so in your face and so obvious that the good of the world will then react.
Such as 911, in recent times. For years the evil filth (terrorists) have been nipping at the heels of the US and other western countries and virtually nothing was done for years, perhaps due to certain traits of certain politicians of the time, until of course the US decided by force to kick ass in Afghanistan. (different political traits again)
The only way to deal with scum terrorists,nazis and Commies is to take them to the tree shredders; there is no point in trying to be diplomatic about it all as some left wingers may/have suggest.
The not so obvious point about what the Pope is saying I think also, we must learn from the past which is a good thing, unfortunately learning good things may come from extremely bad things, Communism, Nazis, Terrorists.
Here in Australia, we have been preached to by left wingers (politicians) for 30 years and finally in 1996 elections we had showed we have had enough, it’s a sort of learning process which unfortunately sometimes cost 100’s 1000’s 100000’s or 1000000’s of lives.
So what have we learnt and what do we do for a better future??
Be easy on me guys im new to this:)