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To: american colleen
You are compelled to defend the Faith.....I understand.

Lets be clear on this one point.....not all the clergy,nor the majority of Catholics in WW-2 were crazed Jew haters like Jack Chick supposes.

I used Google image search and Yahoo....as I was looking for Franz Von Papen and the 1933 Concordat signatory with Pacelli.

I used the photos..which happened to be at a Jack Chick site..and the name info attached.

The photo's are legit....the names are legit.

There was no Jack Chick spew in my post.

Franz Papens quote is Franz Papen Himself ...not a Jack Chick corruption try.

I focused on Papen..as he is a dark figure in the Reichs history..and is clearly alligned to the Vatican.
Papen was part of dissolving many Catholic group realities in Germany...as they competed with the Hitler Youth movement....and there is more.

In my first post..I noted the intrigues of the Russian Orthodox Church...and then forwarded the Aurther Andersen Accounting cover up ..which the World Jewish Congress signed off on.

as I said....everything on the square.

I'm not going to post more dark details from WW-2.. the point is well made by the Photos....which speak volumes.

oh..and Yes...Papen was vice chancellor.

Tell me...are you ready to run to Papens defense too?

Nuremburg trial transcripts at Yale University....Avalon project.
hey..old Franz was aquitted....neato huh....did the Vatican have any part to play in that : )

Papen knew Hitler and knew his party,...knew exactly what the Catholic Church was getting into.
The Church signed the Concordat...the Church was part and parcell of the Reich there after.

Stories of Catholics hiding Jews and Catholics being interned in camps does not remove the main focus of opporendi.

They Church was complicit in enabling the Reich to raise up demented youth and did not resist the corruption which ultimately brought Germany to its ruin.

Germany is but one aspect...there is The Balkans,Italy...Spain.

107 posted on 10/07/2004 10:25:15 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Light Speed
"Stories of Catholics hiding Jews and Catholics being interned in camps does not remove the main focus of opporendi."

What's your problem Light Speed ?
Catholic Church supported Nazis as much as Jews killed Jews during WW2.
108 posted on 10/08/2004 5:11:52 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Light Speed
Franz Papens quote is Franz Papen Himself ...not a Jack Chick corruption try.

The source of that quote can be found ONLY in a book written by an author affiliated with Jack Chick.

I'm not defending Von Papen at all but the issue is not black or white as you suppose. He was a product of extraordinarily unstable times and he seemed to honestly believe that his conservative party could reign in Hitler (who had more political support than the conservative party had) if he threw in his lot with the Nazi government. Von Papen was no doubt an oportunist who played both sides of the fence, most likely to save his own skin (which was, like every other member of the German gov't at that time, under constant threat of death) or at the very least, to keep his positions of prestige and power.

Regarding Von Papen and the concordat of 1933, read it. It did not protect the Church in Germany at all. Neither did the one signed by the various heads of the Protestant congregations a few years before. In fact, the earlier 'agreement' allowed Hitler to form, with the help of the Protestant denoms, the 'Reich Church' which heroes like Bonhoeffer railed against.


Bishop Ludwig Muller, leader of the Reich Church in Germany, greets Adolf Hitler during World War II.
I focused on Papen..as he is a dark figure in the Reichs history..and is clearly alligned to the Vatican.

Why and how is he "clearly aligned" to the Vatican? Because he was a Catholic? Because he signed a concordat (which you have not read) as Vice Chancellor (for 7 mos) of Germany?

Nuremburg trial transcripts at Yale University....Avalon project. hey..old Franz was aquitted....neato huh....did the Vatican have any part to play in that : )

Yes, the Nuremburg trials were merely a puppet of the Vatican! Good catch! Now you know the secret! Please prove your assertion.

The Church signed the Concordat...the Church was part and parcell of the Reich there after.

Read the concordat. Please. Stop showing your ignorance. And if the Church was part and parcel of the Reich, it didn't stop three million Polish Catholics and thousands of German priests and nuns from the Nazi concentration camps. At Dacchau alone approx. 2700 priests were imprisoned.

When Pope Pius XII died on October 9, 1958, Golda Meir, then Israeli delegate to the United Nations, sent official condolences: “When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.”

Dr. Raphael Cantoni, a leader in Italy’s Jewish Assistance Committee added, “The Church and the papacy have saved Jews as much and insofar as they could Christians. Six million of my co-religionists have been murdered by the Nazis... but there would have been many more victims had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII.”

Moshe Sharett, later Israel’s second Prime Minister, met with Pius in the closing stages of the war and said, "I told [him] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews. . . . We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church."

You can find those above quotes everywhere on the internet if you care to do so. They were in major publications and newspapers at that time. I doubt you'll find them on a Jack Chick site if that is where you are looking. :-)

They Church was complicit in enabling the Reich to raise up demented youth and did not resist the corruption which ultimately brought Germany to its ruin.

I think you are speaking of the Reich Church?

You know of course that Hitler hatched a plan to kidnap Pope Pius XII?

For a well researched article on the Church and the Nazi Regime, written by a Jewish professor in Europe, documenting that many more Jews were executed in non-Catholic countries than were executed in Catholic countries (exception is Poland because Poland was ruled by the Nazis) - and why - you should read this article.

111 posted on 10/08/2004 2:01:20 PM PDT by american colleen
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