I think that GW needed to be more agressive toward Kerry. This isn't the "kinder, gentler nation" of his dad's era. Tensions are high and so are the stakes.
Posted on 09/30/2004 9:27:18 PM PDT by Pokey78
HOW DID Bush and Kerry do tonight? A mixed bag for both. Let's look at the scorecard.
Round 1: How will Kerry make America safer? Kerry says he'll use alliances and won't upset Muslims around the world. Bush stumbles before giving the numbers of al Qaeda killed and captured. Round to Kerry
Round 2: Will Kerry's election increase the chances of a terror attack? Showing the certitude that makes thinking people cringe, Bush replies, "That's not going to happen" because he's going to win. "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work," he says. Kerry calls Iraq a "colossal error in judgment." Round to Bush
Round 3: What misjudgments has Bush made? "Where do we start?" Kerry asks. Let the record note that he mentions Vietnam ("as someone who's been in combat") at 9:12 p.m. Unfortunately, he then spins off into talk about multiples of ten. It probably isn't numerology, but who can tell. Bush quotes Kerry's old stance on Saddam. Looking peevish, Bush says "That's part of a pre-September 10th mentality" and gestures to Kerry. A good line of attack he should have pressed more. I mean, wasn't that the theme of the Republican convention? Round to Bush
Round 4: What about going after Saddam and not bin Laden? Bush says, sensibly, "We have to be able to do both." Kerry flops around about the "rush to war" and how Bush didn't fund body armor. Round to Bush
Round 5: What would Kerry do differently on Homeland Security? Kerry attacks Bush's funding of firehouses and the tax cuts, which is weak.
But Bush flounders, muttering something like, "Pssshhht" and shrugging his shoulders. In his rebuttal, he nearly shouts that you better have a president who understands that you have to protect America. Round to Kerry
Round 6: What criteria will you use for knowing when to bring troops home from Iraq? Bush says, "When our generals on the ground" tell us that Iraqis are ready to protect themselves "from these terrorists." Kerry says, "Help is on the way." ("I know what it's like to go out on" missions where you don't know what's around the corner--second Vietnam reference.) During rebuttal, Bush hits Kerry's $87 billion vote for the first, and inexplicably the only, time. Round to Kerry
Round 7: Are Americans now dying for a mistake? After saying he agrees with Bush, Kerry says Iraq is like FDR invading Mexico after Pearl Harbor. Then again with the summits. And then Halliburton. Welcome to the MoveOn.org portion of the program. An increasingly surly Bush responds, "That's just absurd. . . . What does he say to Tony Blair. . . . You can't expect to build alliances when you denigrate the contributions of those who are serving side-by-side with Americans in Iraq." Ouch. Round to Bush
Round 8: What was Bush's miscalculation on post-war conditions in Iraq? Bush says, basically, that the Baathists were cowards and didn't fight and, also, Tommy Franks won too fast. Also: "I know we won't [win in Iraq] if we send mixed signals." Kerry makes news by saying that now he would not have gone into Iraq knowing what he knows now. Or maybe this isn't news. To be honest, I've lost track. Anyway. Round to Kerry
Round 9: How has Bush lied on Iraq? Kerry says that he's "never used the harshest word which you just have." Hmmm . . . can that be true? Someone should look into it, since this isn't the type of thing the RNC would send out a press release about. Bush's rebuttal is a non sequitur: Osama bin Laden doesn't get to decide how America defends itself. Huh? Bush seems personally offended at the suggestion that anyone else might get to do his job. And for the fourth time or so, says, "That's not how a commander in chief acts." Kerry is going to win this round, but he makes one gigantic mistake: "I've had one position, one consistent position," on Iraq, he says. Oops, that should go in an ad. Round to Kerry
Round 10: Has the war in Iraq been worth the cost in lives? Bush's finest moment so far. He names a woman he met whose husband died in Iraq and talks about how they prayed together. "I thought her husband's sacrifice was noble and worthy. Because I understand the stakes of this war on terror," he says. "Every life is precious, that's what distinguishes us from the enemy," he says. If only he could have brought himself to name "the enemy" he keeps referencing.
Kerry's rebuttal is, "I understand what the president is talking about because I know what it means to lose people in combat," and, that "reminds me of my own thinking when I came back from fighting in that war." If you're keeping score at home, this is the fourth time he's brought up Vietnam.
Bush starts his rebuttal by laughing out loud and then coming to tonight's lodestar: "You cannot lead the war on terror if you keep changing positions" again. Kerry's rebuttal uses Colin Powell as a club on Bush and then starts talking about the Pottery Barn Rule. They teach it at SAIS, you know. That and the little known Crate and Barrel Corollary. Round to Bush
Round 11: Give us specifics for how you would end U.S. involvement in Iraq. Kerry talks about 14 military bases in Iraq and guarding the Oil Ministry and we're off to MoveOn land again. we're building 14 bases and guarding the oil ministry only, a sop to the MoveOn types. Says you have to close the borders and bring in allies. Round to Bush
Round 12: Is it now more or less likely that you'll go into a preemptive war again? Bush says, "by speaking clearly and doing what we say and not sending mixed messages" it is less likely we'll have to use troops again. Kerry rebuts that "the enemy" was Osama, not Saddam, and that Bush should have used U.S. troops, not Afghan troops, at Tora Bora. See? Bush should be using multinational troops where he's using American troops and American troops where he was using foreign allies. That makes sense. Round to Bush
Round 13: What is your view on preemptive war? Kerry says the POTUS always has that option and then, amazingly brings up JFK's consultation with the French during the Cuban missile crisis. That is, as the saying goes, a big matzah ball hanging out there.
Shockingly, Bush passes up the opportunity. His rebuttal is, however, devastating. He says he doesn't know what it means to "pass a global test. . . . My attitude is you take preemptive action in order to protect the American people." That's a standing 8-count. Round to Bush
Round 14: Can diplomacy solve the problems in Iran and North Korea? President Bush wants to work with the Moo-lahs to convince Iran to abandon their nuclear ambitions. Kerry beats Bush over the head with Powell again. This is Kerry's best moment, until Jim Lehrer steps in. Lehrer wants to clarify what type of negotiations the two candidates favor. Bush wants bilateral. Kerry says, naturally, "I want both!" Round to Kerry
Round 15: Darfur--why won't you send in troops? Kerry mentions the "back-door draft" and says we're too overextended in Iraq to do Darfur. Bush, interestingly enough, knows about the timing of the African rainy seasons. Round to Kerry
Round 16: Are there underlying character issues serious enough to deny Kerry the job? For looking like such a sourpuss all night, Bush is limber and charming here: "Whew, that's a loaded question," he smiles. He admires Kerry's service and appreciates that he's a great dad and that his daughters have been so kind to the Bush girls. He admires Kerry's service in the Senate, but not his record. "He changes positions on the war in Iraq" and on things "in his core" "in his heart of hearts" and, even worse, sends "mixed messages." Kerry makes the fair point that "It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and wrong." Round to Bush
Round 17: What do you think is the single biggest threat facing America? Kerry doesn't hesitate: "Nuclear proliferation." Round to Kerry
Round 18: Did Bush misjudge Vladimir Putin? President Bush thinks that it's important to have good personal relationships with former KGB agents as they try to roll back important civil freedoms. This way you can disagree constructively. Kerry doesn't have a better answer, but did get a neat-o tour of KGB headquarters right after the fall of the Soviet Union. Round to Kerry
I've got this fight scored dead-even: 9 to 9. Of course there are intangibles to consider. On the whole, Kerry was more relaxed and polished and certainly calmer. He also managed to sneak in a fifth Vietnam reference during his closing remarks ("I defended this country as a young man in war.") Kerry was a grounded presence and his performance should give Democrats hope.
Bush was, as someone once put it, surprisingly more tart than sweet. At times the president faltered and you could see the wheels spinning as he flipped through his mental Rolodex, looking for the right card. Peevish is the word which kept coming to mind. He was, however, ruthlessly on-message. If Kerry really is being damaged by the sense that he's a flip-flopper who doesn't know his own mind--and the higher-ups on Team Bush insist that this is the key to beating him--then the president did exactly what he wanted to do. But if the central issue of this election is the September 10 versus the September 12 party, then Bush may have let slip a fair opportunity.
Jonathan V. Last is online editor of The Weekly Standard.
Best Bush Statement: "How are you going to convince allies to send troops to a 'grand distraction'?"
Look at 6, 15 and 17. He gives these to Kerry. I think they fall on Bush's side of the ledger and here's why.
6) I think it is pretty clear what Bush's game plan is. He answered the question pretty direct. When the generals in the field (those there in Iraq, not someone sitting at home) tell him that the Iraqis are ready to take over for themselves the troops can start coming home. Makes sense and pretty much to the point in my book. Can you tell by Kerry's remarks (help is on the way).
15) I thought that Kerry lost this one more than Bush won it. When Kerry said mentioned the African Union sending in troops I said to my wife look how many of these countries are in the midst of their own civil wars. They aren't prepared to take on someone else's.
17) This one contains a Kerry flip-flop that one of the freepers noticed. Kerry kept hammering Bush about building alliances for Iraq but when it came time to deal with North Korea we should be in bilateral discussions with them. What happened to the alliance that Bush was working with in China, Russia, South Korea and Japan. Don't they have a stake in this issue. Also did Kerry really say something about selling nuclear fuel to Iran. Bush wins this one hands down.
On the recount Bush wins 12-6.
RUSH TO WAR????? I thought we spent several MONTHS trying to get france, germany and russia on board, then on resolutions at the useless nations. Darn near a year if memory serves!
Kerry looked as polished as he's ever going to look. Bush didn't, yet the debate was still a draw.
And there are those on here that are on suicide watch.
Sheesh.
Kerry was going to "win" this debate, no matter what happened according to the media and his supporters, who are always more vocal than conservatives.
The fact is that even if Kerry won this debate, it doesn't matter. Nobody is going to vote for Kerry because of the Iraq/national security issue due to what happened tonight. To the extent they will vote for him due to this issue, they were going to do that anyway.
Great, fast post of a dead on analysis. I might quibble about the score here and there, but in the final analysis it was a draw. No runs, no hits, no errors.
Kerry did manage to get on base by soothing his supportors. Good for him. Bush nailed the one key point he wanted to last past all the detailed analysis - people will remember that Kerry wobbles and he won't.
This is the time for substance to prevail..You're dealing with people's lives, that gets their attention.
Kerry won the debate. He also lied on numerous occasions. Bush needs to find a way to directly and succinctly make sure everyone knows that Kerry is disseminating (sic?) falsehoods and that it is a pattern of behavior with him.
I can't watch the president during these situations because public speaking is not his strong point.The debates could only help Kerry and hurt Bush in my opinion.I saw plenty of missed oppertunities by the president to make Kerry look stupid.I hope Bush looks over the tape of this debate and realizes that he uses one or two phrases too mant times.
This article is well reasoned, and probably fairly accurate. Kerry “won” the debate on style, because he managed to overcome his initial nervousness (which was all too apparent with his quavering voice and shaking hands), and managed to look pseudo-Presidential. Mr. Bush had the “moral clarity” thing down cold, but he kept going back to the “wrong war, wrong place, wrong time” comment too often, and let Kerry off the hook on issues like the NK nukes (didn’t Maddie Albright acknowledge that the NKs had snookered her?). Sadly, now Mr. Bush will have to face a “town hall” audience “salted” by the media with the spiritual heirs of the Pony Tail Guy, and a debate on “domestic” issues in which Kerry will be given every opportunity to drag out all the DNC class warfare rhetoric.
huh? There are a number of these "Rounds" where Last's decision to award them to Kerry is just mystifying based on his own descriptions of them.
Did Bush correct him on that ? I think Bush missed quite a few opportunities to put kerry away. VERY dissapointed tonight
Who did you support before the debate?
Who did you support after the debate?
If that changed, then someone "won." If not, then no one won.
That's the way I recall it, too. I keep wondering why we keep letting that lie stand.
Precisely. Kerry blew it on the nuke fuel thing.
Exactly my feelings..Bummed out here. Bush looked terrible tonight .
His analysis failed to include the closing statements. Bush far surpassed Kerry on this.
I agree, but was hoping for better delivery as well.
Then you don't know much about George Bush.
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