Posted on 08/11/2004 7:08:05 AM PDT by The Wizard
And that's the REAL reason the demonrats hate GWB: not only is he everything they hoped billyboy would be, he will be remembered for planting the seeds that grew into peace to the Middle East.....
Washington was the Father of our country, and Lincoln freed the slaves, and GWB started the journey that will eventually bring peace to this troubled part of the world, and the rats hate him for it, so much so, that I wouldn't put ANYTHING past them.......
The real democrats, who controlled the party when Tip was the Man, lost control to the clintonistas, and he was so bad, the party regulars fled as the goon squad came in to defend their leader......
But as I sat watching Rummy from Afgahistan today speaking about 9 million folks so hungry to vote they risk their lives to register, it told any logical man that so it will be in Iraq, and all the other kingdoms throughout the world.....
The time of kings is over, now is the time of the little man, and he never had a stronger, braver friend than Ronald Reagan or GWB......
While not asking for this honor, GWB had it blown up on him on 9-11, and the world will be a safer, better place when this is done.
God Bless and protect GWB....
"If Lincoln had not fought back after South Carolina fired on American troops,..."
American troops....northern resupply of a garrison (foreign garrison, remember secession. Not specifically mentioned in the constitution, but implied by the preamble of the DoI), a valid target. One which which abe could have avoided if he'd had the garrison take advantage of free passage out. Sort of like expelling ambassadors.
"...the North American continent would consist of a powerful, but greatly weakened USA to the north, and a backwater, third word, banana republic to the south. "
Fair analogy. The north had relied on southern raw materials and the fed was in the process of taxing the heck out of those imports. Additionally, there was that whole foreign imports thing that would have made any merchant scream.
Abe seized on the slavery motivation well into the confilict. It was extremely unpopular. "Gangs of New York" has the only anti-lincoln verbiage I've ever seen. It jibes with the DiLorenzo book.
Speaking of that. YEP, that is a single source. With tons of references from newspapers of the day (prior to their being closed down), and those that were able to keep printing. There are refs from other historians as well. Just because this single book flies in the face of historical consensus, doesn't mean its not right. The DiLorenzo book has more the ring of truth for me because it comes from the point of view that the constitution is the blueprint of our governance and lincoln wadded it up and pitched it.
Finally, The institution of government is intended for one purpose, to protect individual volition. That is the ability to decide, choose, discriminate. To varying degrees all governments are measured by this rule. The Roman PAX (Augustan Caesars), the British empire, the United States of America, all provide(d) (also to varying degrees) for their citizens, an atmosphere of liberty where free exercise of volition, discrimination, evangelism were/are possible.
Pete
Like I said, the particular instance is arguable, but the overarching principle is not. Regardless, what's done is done, and not to be undone any time soon if at all.
I missed the attack post. He is avoiding a direct answer to a question.
First day posting and the first thing I posted was a parody I wrote of John Mellencamp's "Small Town". I also didn't flame a soul, but posted along with the rest of you on this topic.
Started nothing "regional" as much as "honest" And I love how you claim to know my motives (and you're 100% wrong).
USA DID invade a foreign country in 1861. However, the USA LIBERATED Iraq (I refuse to call it an invasion).
I was ill when Clinton won in 1992 and 1996. Ecstatic when Bush won in 2000 (I was up late into the night and even printed CNN.com's webpage announcing Bush had won on election night) before Gore got his legal cronies out and about.
My pedigree as a conservative is without question, friend. You make the mistake of lumping pride in America and criticism of Lincoln as a liberal activity.
I don't think the CSA was showing much foresight when it chose to secede and to invoke the principle of states' rights over its "peculiar institution."
If the South had chosen to invoke states' rights and secede over the nullification controversy a generation before, that might have been different.
Essentially, the South was impetuous and jumped the gun. Lincoln was conciliatory upon his election. He offered compromise and the preservation of Southern customs.
Rather than give him a chance to govern and to work with the South, secession began before he was even sworn in.
And anyone with foresight would have known that since Northern whites outnumbered Southern whites 3 to 1, there was no chance that the new states organized out of the territories would have had sustainable pro-slavery majorities. Secession meant either going to war interminably in the future over those territories or cutting themselves off from westward expansion altogether.
As it turned out, there was nothing noble about destroying states' rights and dismantling our constitutional republic.
States' rights are not destroyed, but they certainly are attenuated. And the republic has not been dismantled either.
It's our job to try and repair the damage, not throw up our hands and surrender.
Please read my subsequent comments. Thank you.
OK good enough. Be mindful that you will be watched fro a while. I was pounded so bad on my first day that I used an ancient tactic to get the misunderstanding under control.
I attacked myself. I posted to me calling me a racist, a bigot, a commie, etc... until the flamers gort confused. Then I explained why they thought I said what I didn't say.
WHO is avoiding a direct answer to a question??? Certainly not me.
Your questions were buried in a poorly laid out post amid graphics. Then you said "answer the questions", so I wisely asked what questions. Then you pointed them out to me...
AND I ANSWERED THEM. SCROLL BACK.
Goodness gracious. It's good it's only a couple of you that are being obnoxious. The rest of this group seems fine.
Ok, then ignore post 209. Old Sarge sure was wrong, though. :)
I had not got to your answer yet. I think you are OK. We have had so many interlopers lately that we are edgy. WE out new trolls every few minute. Sleeper troll are coming out of the woodwork after laying low for years.
We are not unfriendly just very cautious.
You've done extremely well today. Welcome aboard.
Cool. If allowed, I'll be here awhile. It's much more intelligent than the Hannity.com site, where trolls have free reign.
I DID try to be a troll once over on DemocrapUnderground, but it was really so difficult pretending to be a liberal that they outed me after about 11 hours.
Too late I read it. Old Sarge has been very busy. He is seldom wrong. You took a bold stance for first day guy. I made the same mistake almost two years ago.
We fight here somedays with people we know. We are not all eye to eye on every subject. Not many Bushbots around and NO KERRY LOVERS tolerated. If you had been here a while your post would have drawn fire for a while from some posters.
Just chill a while and everything will be fine. What is your favorite topic?
Wrong. The Federal Government put down an insurrection, which is it's legal duty (US Constitution, Art. I, Sect. 8, clause 15).
Each state violated the Constitution with their attempted secession (Art.I, Sect. 10, Clauses 1 and 3).
Shall I continue, or do you owe this soldier and veteran an apology?
Well, here's the ultimate proof of my views...
I LOVE ANN COULTER AND THINK SHE'S INTELLIGENT AND BEAUTIFUL.
There! :)
I will concede - as did men like Robert E. Lee and "Stonewall" Jackson - that the South should have freed the slaves before resorting to secession. However, that doesn't mean secession wasn't within their rights as free and independent states.
Ann's OK, but she needs a sanswich or two.
The USA did not invade...It was trying to reclaim.
Though I am a southerner, I have to come to the reality that the Civil War was uncalled for. Manassas, though we won, both times, wasn't an invasion. You also have to remember, though you may be a Georgian, most of the battles were here in VA. I happen to be across the river from Big Bethel, that's where McGruder was trying to stop the Union push up to Richmond on the Penninsula (Hampton, Newport News, Yorktown, Williamsburg,Denbiegh, Poquoson..etc.)
I live down the street from Gosport Navy Yard...Iron Clad...and I can view Hampton Roads in my back yard, where those Iron clads met. I am also not to far from Craney Island, and Ft. Norfolk, the places that supplied the Virginia (Merrimack). I can see Newport News Point, where the Cumberland sank..
I have southern pride, but Lincoln was right.
"The Federal Government put down an insurrection, which is it's legal duty (US Constitution, Art. I, Sect. 8, clause 15)."
You're right!
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