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Couples Ask: What?s Wrong With In-vitro Fertilization?
NCR ^ | August 8-14, 2004 | Tim Drake

Posted on 08/11/2004 6:34:48 AM PDT by NYer

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To: steve-b

Moral license to take the life of another human being not posing an immediate threat to oneself and property or to others can only come from the government, since they are the only ones who hold power over life and death.

"No person shall be deprived of life ... [by the government] without due process of law."

So long as Osama was not immediately threatening another person, a random stranger could not legitimately just go up and kill him, even knowing his intent. A government could, as an act of war or self-defense.

The right to life comes from God but is mediated through the just laws and actions of human society, which is why the death penalty, war, and defensive killings, can be morally done.


141 posted on 08/11/2004 9:47:13 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: maggiefluffs

I already admitted they were wrong assumptions.


142 posted on 08/11/2004 9:48:04 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: mikegi
I guess you have a problem with your wife using her hands on your, too? That certainly carries a risk for climax. By your definition of homosexual behavior, a woman using her hands on you is no different from a guy doing.

Do you and you wife engage in this homosexual behavior?

No, my wife is beautiful enough that I have no need of such services to arouse me.

In addition, a woman's orgasm contributes to impregnation by distorting the cervix so that it reaches the expected seminal fluid. By giving your woman an orgasm without having an ejaculation, you are defeating this function.

Not true. Women can become pregnant without an orgasm on their part. Without having to ask who has been faking it, we can bring up the example of impregnation via rape.

Anyway, on its face, the entire oral sex act with a woman is no different than lesbian behavior since no pregnancy will result.

I agree, if it is seperated from the overall context of a completed act of sexual intercourse. There is no difference then.

Perhaps we might summarize this very succinctly. The Church teaches that husband and wife may do as they please with each other provided the man climaxes in the normal way inside the woman. Its just one simple and sensible rule, but apparently such nearly unrestricted freedom of action is far to stifling for many.

143 posted on 08/11/2004 9:53:07 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: WVNan
A gift from God.

This is the part that confuses me too.

If consciousness, intelligence, and reason were given to man by God, how is it wrong to use those gifts to assist in the creation of another gift from God?

Isn't it wrong not to acknowledge and consequently *use* those gifts?

To have those gifts but be prohibited from using them seems rather wasteful.

144 posted on 08/11/2004 9:54:18 AM PDT by MamaTexan (Democrats are just Communists in metrosexual clothing)
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To: MamaTexan

Okay, why not just grow children outside the womb all the way to conception, ala "Brave New World". Just man using his intelligence, right?


145 posted on 08/11/2004 9:55:28 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Oh, please!

The subject of the thread is in-vitro, which results in the woman giving birth,
not some fictional horror story you've read.

146 posted on 08/11/2004 10:03:04 AM PDT by MamaTexan (Democrats are just Communists in metrosexual clothing)
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To: mikegi
Even if all the embryos could always be saved, IVF would still be unethical for these reasons:

First, procreation should not be separated from the conjugal act. To do so is to treat human procreation as something less than it is.

Second, the unitive aspect of human procreation is not to be separated from biological reproduction. Such a separation is contrary to what human reproduction is by its very nature.

Third, no human should be produced or manufactured by technology. Such treatment is contrary to the dignity proper to humans by their very nature. (This is also the reason why human cloning is unethical.) The use of technologies that supplant the natural process of human reproduction inherently treat the child as a mere artifact, which is to treat the child contrary to what he or she is.

- A8

147 posted on 08/11/2004 10:06:18 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: usafsk
So you now run from the obvious implication of your comments,

What you chose to read in what I wrote is a total distortion beyond a straw man. Your shrill tone suggests that you are incapable of a rational discussion on this matter.

148 posted on 08/11/2004 10:11:51 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.)
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To: MamaTexan

So you don't have an answer to my question?

We've already said many times what is wrong with IVF.


149 posted on 08/11/2004 10:12:16 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

You have done a great job in presenting the truth here. As usual, too many reject the truth because accepting it would mean changing the way they lead their lives.


150 posted on 08/11/2004 10:15:56 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: usafsk
"Can't let that one go. Read my previous posts on this topic, I also have an adopted daughter. Or do you want me to give my children up for adoption. Get a life."

There's no need to get all nasty. I was attacking you personally. I know nothing about you.

What you have demonstrated is that it is an extremely emotional issue. Just look at your reply. You mentioned that you have an adopted daughter and then offer to give up your children for adoption. You don't make sense. Your emotions got the better of you.

I see IVF as playing God. You don't have to agree with me. I see adoption as the right thing to do when conception is not possible naturally. Your reply to me tells me you are emotionally driven, lack common sense and don't think before you reply because your emotions cloud your judgement.
151 posted on 08/11/2004 10:16:55 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: NYer

"At the Pope Paul VI Institute, we saw compassion, concern, help and love," Stephanie said. "They provided individualized treatment, versus the empty feeling that we felt from the fertility clinic. Whereas the fertility clinic bypasses all the laws of nature, the Pope Paul VI Institute works with the laws of nature."


152 posted on 08/11/2004 10:22:37 AM PDT by johnb2004
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To: Xenalyte

There's evidently an option to donate unimplanted embryos to other needy infertile couples.


153 posted on 08/11/2004 11:25:17 AM PDT by ellery (Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: ellery
An option, yes. So maybe we'll let our babies live, and maybe we'll toss them.

That is vile. (Not you, the procedure and its deadly results.)
154 posted on 08/11/2004 11:33:59 AM PDT by Xenalyte (I love this job more than I love taffy, and I'm a man who loves his taffy.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
As I said above, being corrected on the history, my response is "tough luck". Sometimes, you just can't do everything you want to do. Unfortunately, looking at Baby-Boomer "Me" society today, this idea is utterly foreign to many people.

We're not talking about buying a nice car, buddy, we're talking about being denied the miracle of bearing children. Your response may still be a cold "tough luck" -- but that doesn't say much for your ability to love thy neighbor and walk in their shoes.

155 posted on 08/11/2004 11:49:26 AM PDT by ellery (Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Its just one simple and sensible rule

It's simple, but it seems pretty arbitrary. I certainly wouldn't call it sensible.

156 posted on 08/11/2004 11:58:03 AM PDT by Modernman (Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Okay, why not just grow children outside the womb all the way to conception, ala "Brave New World". Just man using his intelligence, right?

Why not indeed? That is probably how children will be gestated in the not-too-distant future. I don't see a problem.

157 posted on 08/11/2004 11:59:47 AM PDT by Modernman (Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.)
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To: adiaireton8

But with infertile couples, by definition procreation is separated from the conjugal act. That's how they know they're infertile.

As for reproductive technology, where do you draw the line? If I take medication to help me ovulate, I am relying on technology to help get me pregnant. Is that wrong too?

Finally, the creation of life cannot happen without God. Anyone who thinks otherwise is giving human doctors 'way too much credit.


158 posted on 08/11/2004 12:04:55 PM PDT by ellery (Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Xenalyte

If I ever underwent IVF, I assure you I would never, *never* "toss" those precious embryos. The act of tossing them is indeed vile -- but many don't. So, it's important to make the distinction. Heck, I would have no problem with a law mandating that any embryos not implanted by the parents must be donated to a needy couple.


159 posted on 08/11/2004 12:11:12 PM PDT by ellery (Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: ellery
"But with infertile couples, by definition procreation is separated from the conjugal act. That's how they know they're infertile."

That is not accurate at all. Someone infertile, through no fault of their own, is not intentionally separating love and sex. It is pathology beyond their control.

"As for reproductive technology, where do you draw the line? If I take medication to help me ovulate, I am relying on technology to help get me pregnant. Is that wrong too?"

Medicine that helps to correct a pathology would be licit as long as it does not pervert the intended nature of the conjugal act. That is separating love and sex.

"Finally, the creation of life cannot happen without God. Anyone who thinks otherwise is giving human doctors 'way too much credit."

God is the creator and married couples are to be pro-creators. IVF and the like allow humans to usurp God and create life outside the intended way. That is playing God.
160 posted on 08/11/2004 12:12:10 PM PDT by johnb2004
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