[Southack]

We've paid for 23 F-22's to date, spending $26 Billion (yes, with a "B") on the program so far to date.

For that same money you could have 1,000 sub-orbital Burt Rutan-style fighters, a dozen B-2 stealth bombers, several F-117 stealth fighters, and still have enough money left over to purchase every Su-27 available on the market.

The F-22 is the best fighter ever, but that and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

Civilians, yes, civilians are now flying higher and faster than the F-22. The F-22 can't even go into Space...but civilians can.

Nor can a mere 23 F-22's stop 6,000 civilian aircraft if they were to be employed by our enemies in two massive swarms in two different parts of our nation.

Even the Pentagon has seen that the F-22 isn't needed for air supremacy; that's why they've ordered that it be modified for use as a ground attack aircraft (as if we'd ever let a Billion+ Dollar aircraft plink at muddy ground targets).

The F-22 harkens back to WW2 Germany when the NAZI's were thrilled to build the Superior Tiger II tank...only to watch as their meager production run of 500 machines was obliterated by the Allies' 10,000+ "inferior" tanks.

How many American fighter pilots are going to be retired from our F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's, only to be replaced by 23 F-22 jocks??

Who thinks that it is a good idea for America to have *FEWER* frontline fighter pilots??

...Because that's what the F-22, and its massive cost overruns, means.

[sargunner]

Pukin' Ping

[Yo-Yo]

Civilians, yes, civilians are now flying higher and faster than the F-22. The F-22 can't even go into Space...but civilians can.

Yeah, yeah, and when the Lear Jet was first introduced in 1963 it could climb faster than an F-100 SuperSabre. Funny, though, that Rutan SpaceShipOne doesn't even have a radar, let alone any weapons.

[Flightdeck]

"For that same money you could have 1,000 sub-orbital Burt Rutan-style fighters, a dozen B-2 stealth bombers, several F-117 stealth fighters, and still have enough money left over to purchase every Su-27 available on the market."

Since the B-2 cost $2.2 billion EACH, a dozen of them would already put you over budget. They wouldn't have cost that much if Lockheed had the contract, but that's another story. But as to your main point, the projected orders for the JSF are in the hundreds, and the FA/18 superhornets are gonna be around for a while. And militarily, a "Burt Rutan style fighter" is worthless. Why would we launch a teeny little thing up really high only for it to fall back down 15 minutes later only a hundred miles away?

[Shryke]

For that same money you could have 1,000 sub-orbital Burt Rutan-style fighters

No. Why do you say things like this?

[Squantos]

It's all wasted money till we're getting our asses kicked......:o)

With "some foreign aircraft we've been able to test, our best pilots flying their airplanes beat our pilots flying our airplanes every time,"

This statement was just silly. I suspect it's the best pile-it vs the AC in most cases.

You'd think Duke would know better.

Stay safe Southack !

[HighWheeler]

"We've paid for 23 F-22's to date, spending $26 Billion (yes, with a "B") on the program so far to date.

.....(as if we'd ever let a Billion+ Dollar aircraft plink at muddy ground targets)."


Man, you sound like a 'Rat, with all the slight of hand on the "cost per aircraft" during development to justify cancelling the program.

The initial expenditure bought Billion$ in engineering technology advancement, drawings, manufacturing advancement, design improvements, etc. before the first plane was even made. Maybe we should just buy millions of P-51 Mustangs to defend ourselves if cost is your only concern.

FYI, On 30 December 1999 the Air Force awarded contracts totaling more than $1.5 billion to Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Systems, Marietta, GA, and Pratt & Whitney, West Palm Beach, FL, to build six F-22 Raptor production-representative test vehicles. That was $250 Million each.

Full production, estimated to be 335 aircraft, will cost about $113 Million each. That's Value Priced at under 1/8 the cost of your projection.

[rebel_yell2]

As any introductory finance student can tell you, the $26 billion already spent is a "sunk cost" and is no longer relevant to the investment decision. What is the cost per aircraft excluding what has already been sunk?

[Charles Martel]

For that same money you could have 1,000 sub-orbital Burt Rutan-style fighters

When someone develops and builds a suborbital fighter that is militarily viable, please let me know and I'll start paying closer attention. So far, all Rutan has done is build something akin to the X-planes of the '50s and '60s. A great accomplishment, especially given the civilian development.

Unless we have something really special stashed at Groom Lake, we won't be seeing anything capable of carrying weapons outside the atmosphere for many years to come. We'll get there eventually - but by then the F/A-22 will be long in the tooth.