Turkey warned of al-Qaida attack at NATO Summit (glider w explosives, NEW INFO)

Seattle P I ^ | July 3, 2004 | ESRA AYGIN

[FairOpinion]

ISTANBUL, Turkey -- Turkish authorities received a warning that al-Qaida was planning to use a bomb-laden glider in a suicide attack targeting world leaders at the NATO summit in Istanbul, the city's police chief was quoted as saying.

The aircraft was supposed to take off from a neighboring country and approach the city by flying over the Black Sea, Cerrah said. "They had chosen a glider because radar would not spot it," Cerrah told the newspaper. "And since it flies without an engine, it would approach the target in silence."

Police spokesman Ramazan Er revealed Friday that authorities found and defused explosives in a garage at Istanbul's airport only hours before the arrival of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

[FairOpinion]

"Well, the possible countermeasure is to keep a small group of [creative engineering types] to play the enemy part and come up with crazy- and not-so-crazy ideas."

I think this is a very reasonable idea. They should form a small organization (or a small department within Homeland Security or the intel organizations) with creative people who come up with various scenarios from the enemy's point of view. Engineers and others who think "outside the box", and take the mindset of the enemy into consideration -- that they are perfectly willing to die in the process, to perpetrate a successful attack.

We haven't heard lately, but there was a lot of discussion about divers a while ago.

They could do something very simple or very sophisticated.

[FairOpinion]

I have not heard -- before or after 9-11 -- of any fictional books discussing multiple simultaneous hijackings and flying the planes into buildings, nor of turning shoes into bombs.

[FairOpinion]

"Clancy's novel where an airliner hit another Gov't building "

That is in a Clancy novel, really? Was that deliberate in the novel too?

[fiftymegaton]

In Clancy's book it is actually a Japanese commercial airline pilot who kills his co-pilot and proceeds to fly the plane into the capitol building killing most of the legislature and the president. That is how Jack Ryan ended up becoming president.(I think the book was Debt of Honor?)

[FairOpinion]

I didn't read that.

I read the first few Clancy novels, but then he became so prolific, that with everything else, I couldn't keep up.

[hummingbird]

Prior to 9-11, nobody would believe that 4 US passenger planes could be hijacked simultaneously and 3 of them actually succeed in being flown into their targets.

This is the really sad part, FairOpinion. The vast American public did not have a clue that this was even on the radar screen, so to speak. However, the president between the two Bushes was well aware of Project Bojinka (or however it is spelled) and incorrectly calculated the possibility of something like this happening. Actually, I don't really believe that's what he did (incorrectly calculate) but for some reason I'm feeling charitable tonight.

[hummingbird]

Without ceasing.

Amen.

[Southack]

"Problem One: Gliders are not radar negative. They can be swept and pinged just as easily as any other aircraft."

That's somewhat true for modern metal gliders...but back in WW2 we used all wood gliders to send spies into occupied France.

Wood has a *very*, very small radar cross-section (i.e., it's pretty much invisible).

Of course, your pilot in such a glider would need to be wearing no metal on his/her clothes and have no metal fillings in his teeth and use no metal to wire or detonate the explosives on board if decent stealth was really desired...ditto for using glue instead of rivets (or carbon fibre) to hold the wood frame and cloth fabric glider together (and it couldn't have any electronics or even analog gauges whatsoever, either).

That being said, mere civilians *can* make a stealth glider if properly motivated and informed.

It just won't be a modern metal glider.

[hummingbird]

What bonehead actually believes THIS????

Sheepishly, I'd have to call 'bonehead' on myself for this one. Couldn't they construct a glider out of a material that was undetectable to radar, or, in the guise of a routine glider event, suddenly switch flight path, etc? And, yes, I have read some Clancey novels....LOL!

[hummingbird]

Was that the same novel where terrorists flashed light at the pilots and somehow caused them to crash (through a convoluted chain of events)? It didn't take place in the US where the capitol was wiped out...can't remember if plane crashed on takeoff or landing.

Oh, that Tom Clancey....

[hummingbird]

I was thinking along the same lines, Southack, but don't have the historical background you have. Thanks for the info!

[Southack]

"Was that the same novel where terrorists flashed light at the pilots and somehow caused them to crash..."

Blinding pilots with a high-powered laser, even an invisible laser like infrared, is a very real aviation threat (it could also be used to cause some pretty ugly car crashes). Military fighter pilots wear goggles that protect them, but most civilian pilots do not...and a blind pilot is a bad pilot (better hope that you have a great autopilot slaved into your GPS system, that you are really lucky, or that your photographic memory gets you through).

[hummingbird]

Thanks...I haven't read all of the Clancy books and the ones I have read have run together but I do recall reading about two characters blinding the pilots (from a hotel room window, I think) & causing a crash.

Weren't there also some real American and Russian pilots who suffered permanent eye problems because they had been "hit" with lasers? I recall some kind of legal machinations regarding this. Happened several years ago but I can't recall much else.

The only Clancy I have right now is a loaner from a friend but I've had it for months and haven't even started it...its co-written by General Fred Franks, Jr. (Ret)...INTO THE STORM A Study in Command.

[musicman]

Southack,..Do you remember reading here on FR a thread concerning GLIDERS found in Iraq?

IIRC,either "Blixie and the Boys" found some, or our troops found some, and the discussion concerned what Saddam would have used them for,
(like spraying Sarin,Anthrax, or any of the other WMD's that Saddam "didn't have").

[Elsie]

Couldn't they construct a glider out of a material that was undetectable to radar,

Al-Quida???! They are scavengers: using what is AVAILABLE.

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The aircraft was supposed to take off from a neighboring country

The problem is payload. A modern glider is LIGHTWEIGHT with a low sink rate ~ 20:1. If you are up 5 miles you can glide a 100. If you have a 2 passenger model, you sure don't get much payload!

Remember, those commercial planes were LOADED with TONS of fuel, not mere pounds! Sure, they MIGHT have a backpack nuke, but I'd think CAR&GPS delivery would be much more practical, reliable and easier!

As well as 'hidden in plain sight' among THOUSANDS of similar vehicles.

[LeGrande]

Payload and penetration. A glider doesn't have enough speed and mass to penetrate into a building. At most a glider would have a 200-300 lb payload. Timing the detonation would be a major problem. A motorcycle could carry a bigger payload and have more penetration into the building and it wouldn't have to worry about overcoming wings stopping its forward motion.

The pilot would have to come in high and slow around 50 knots to have any chance of hitting the target. Can anyone say sitting duck? Any twelve year old child with a 22 rifle could take out the pilot.

Modern composite gliders show up just fine on radar. They aren't "stealthy" in the least.

This is simply misdirection.

[hummingbird]

Dang...thanks, Elsie. I try to think out-of-the box but most of the time I can't even find the box!

"Scavengers"...good call. I'll try to think along those lines...

[JimRed]

...can't remember if plane crashed on takeoff or landing.

Blinded the pilots on landing approach.

[hummingbird]

Thanks, JimRed...Happy 4th!

[Elsie]

A modern glider is LIGHTWEIGHT with a low sink rate ~ 20:1.

I just looked up stuff on gliders (sailplanes) and found than 60 to 1 is doable!

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WOW!