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N.C. Judge Ordered To Drop Religion-Neutral Oaths, Restore God
NBC 17 ^ | June 29, 2004

Posted on 06/30/2004 9:23:19 AM PDT by NYer

N.C. Judge Ordered To Drop Religion-Neutral Oaths, Restore God

Judge Accused Of Changing State Mandated Procedures

POSTED: 5:45 PM EDT June 29, 2004

RALEIGH, N.C. -- The state Supreme Court on Tuesday ordered a district court judge to restore references to God in the words said when he enters the courtroom and when witnesses who swear to tell the truth.

In an order signed by Chief Justice I. Beverly Lake Jr., the court sided with officials from Davidson and Iredell counties, who complained that Judge James M. Honeycutt had taken it upon himself to change courtroom procedures set down in state law.

The court ordered Honeycutt to stop using an oath he had revised himself to remove the phrase "so help you God," and administer the oath that is spelled out in state law. Honeycutt also had stopped asking that the oath be sworn on a Bible.

Though the standard oath in court includes references to God, state law also allows that "when a person to be sworn shall have conscientious scruples against taking an oath" he may instead "affirm" that he is telling the truth.

The Supreme Court also ordered the judge to allow bailiffs to open court with a proclamation that includes the customary phrase, "God save the state and this honorable court." Honeycutt had threatened to hold Iredell County bailiffs in contempt of court if they have continued to use the phrase, according to a complaint by Brian Shipwash, the Davidson County clerk of court; Rena Turner, the Iredell County clerk of court; and Phillip Redmond, the Iredell County sheriff.

In March, Honeycutt told court officials that he planned to begin using a neutral oath in his courtrooms the following month because of the increasing number of non-Christians served by the court system.

In May, Lake called Honeycutt's decision to act on his own "deplorable," but said he lacked the authority to reverse Honeycutt's orders unless someone filed a complaint.

Honeycutt did not immediately return a message seeking comment. A court clerk said he was hearing cases Tuesday afternoon.

District courts hear traffic and misdemeanor cases, civil cases like divorce, custody and child support and lawsuits involving less than $10,000.

Honeycutt was elected in 1990; he is one of nine judges who preside over District Court in Alexander, Davidson, Davie and Iredell counties -- an area south of Winston-Salem. His term expires in 2006.

Shipwash said court clerks in Davidson and Iredell counties and bailiffs employed by Redmond's department have all refused to abide by Honeycutt's order.

"Basically the judge swore in his own witnesses," Shipwash said. "I think this decision returns this court to the people instead of like a dictatorship of one judge."



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; churchandstate; judge; oath; sohelpyougod
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1 posted on 06/30/2004 9:23:20 AM PDT by NYer
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To: *Catholic_list; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; ...
Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 06/30/2004 9:24:20 AM PDT by NYer ("Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels.")
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To: NYer

It is amazing how many traditions our Founding Fathers outlawed by writing the First Amendment and yet they were completely unaware that they outlawed them. If the Founding Fathers intended such an extreme interpretation of the First Amendment, why did they adopt so many 'unConstitutional' practices? I guess the real genuis of our Founding Fathers is that they had no idea what they meant when they wrote the Bill of Rights.


3 posted on 06/30/2004 9:28:51 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: NYer; All
ordered Honeycutt to stop using an oath he had revised himself to remove the phrase "so help you God," and administer the oath that is spelled out in state law.

Why is he still on the bench after breaking the law?
Judge Roy Moore was removed!

4 posted on 06/30/2004 9:31:30 AM PDT by apackof2 (Kind words are like honey-sweet to the soul and healthy for the body Pro.16:24)
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To: NYer

Yeah, it's kind of sad. I'd like to see a religion-neutral courtroom, that's not the place for religion, but I'd also like to smack down activist judges who seem to like to take things into their own hands. If change comes, it comes from the legislative branch.


5 posted on 06/30/2004 9:35:22 AM PDT by HeywoodJ
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To: apackof2

He's still on the bench because he backed down when the state SC overruled him. He's an atheist who just tried to impose his religion on the state legislature and on those in his court.


6 posted on 06/30/2004 9:35:28 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: apackof2
Why is he still on the bench after breaking the law?
Judge Roy Moore was removed!

For sure - I guess it's only punishable for opening the door to God, closing the door on Him is OK...

7 posted on 06/30/2004 9:35:51 AM PDT by trebb (Ain't God good . . .)
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To: NYer
Chief Justice I. Beverly Lake Jr.,

Memo to Bush: Potential SCOTUS nominee.

8 posted on 06/30/2004 9:36:20 AM PDT by nonliberal (With Specter as Judiciary Chair, how do the Bushbots propose we get a conservative onto the Court?)
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To: Bonaparte
He's an atheist who just tried to impose his religion on the state legislature and on those in his court.

He's an atheist? Odd. I'd read in other news articles that he's a Baptist.
9 posted on 06/30/2004 9:39:15 AM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: NYer

"Your Honor, I can't hear you, could you please turn the pump off!!"


10 posted on 06/30/2004 9:43:50 AM PDT by Gator113
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To: Dimensio

There are plenty of atheists who attend churches only for social or political reasons. Look at Bill Clinton. Any judge who is so hostile to God that he is willing to defy the law to banish Him from the court, is no believer.


11 posted on 06/30/2004 9:58:48 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: NYer
"In March, Honeycutt told court officials that he planned to begin using a neutral oath in his courtrooms the following month because of the increasing number of non-Christians served by the court system."

The majority of this country is Christian.

MAJORITY RULES!!

12 posted on 06/30/2004 10:07:39 AM PDT by LADY J
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To: Bonaparte
Any judge who is so hostile to God that he is willing to defy the law to banish Him from the court, is no believer.

And I suppose that it's impossible that he's an actual believer who happens to interpret Matthew 5:33-37 differently than you do.
13 posted on 06/30/2004 10:11:36 AM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: Dimensio
"He's an atheist? Odd. I'd read in other news articles that he's a Baptist.

And the "PINO" Priests in name only, who molested young boys were involved in the Catholic church, so your point is?

14 posted on 06/30/2004 10:12:13 AM PDT by JustAnAmerican
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To: JustAnAmerican

My point is that too many morons are quick to shout "ATHEIST!" when someone dares to object to government-mandated religious mantras, not for a moment taking the time to realise that there are religious people who believe that certain sacred rituals, such as prayer, are trivialized when they're turned into government functions or that there are those who honestly believe that it is blasphemous to swear "so help me God" (for reasons, such as, Matthew 5:33-37).


15 posted on 06/30/2004 10:15:56 AM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: NYer

More comments here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1162645/posts


16 posted on 06/30/2004 10:21:29 AM PDT by Nasty McPhilthy (When the levy breaks…..there’ll be no place to run.)
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To: Dimensio
Nice try, Dimensio. But Honeycutt's rationale was quite specific and had nothing to do with the Book of Matthew.

From the posted article --

    In March, Honeycutt told court officials that he planned to begin using a neutral oath in his courtrooms the following month because of the increasing number of non-Christians served by the court system.
Clearly, Honeycutt was not doing any of this to serve the interests of Christians, as you falsely maintain.

In fact, he went even further than this --

    The Supreme Court also ordered the judge to allow bailiffs to open court with a proclamation that includes the customary phrase, "God save the state and this honorable court." Honeycutt had threatened to hold Iredell County bailiffs in contempt of court if they have continued to use the phrase...
I've read other online articles about this incident to see if Honeycutt had a Matthew 5 reservation about the oath or any Bible based objection to the opening proclamation. He did not.

It has long been standard procedure in courtrooms to allow affirmation instead of an oath. Anybody with objections to swearing the usual oath has always been free to tell the judge, at which point that witness is permitted to simply affirm. Honeycutt went way beyond his authority and, according to his stated rationale, it was not to accomodate Christians but to cater to non-believers.

17 posted on 06/30/2004 10:35:00 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: Bonaparte
Clearly, Honeycutt was not doing any of this to serve the interests of Christians, as you falsely maintain.

I never said that he was out to "serve the interests of Christians". I merely suggested that it is possible that he considers Matthew 5:33-37 to forbid oaths. It was actually more a response on the allegations that he is an atheist (despite the fact that no news story claims as much) than real speculation on his motives. I'm aware of the reasoning that he's given, and honestly, I don't have a problem with it.

Why do you want Christian-centric oaths to be the default in the US court system? Do you like the idea of non-Christians being pointed out when they request an alternative form of affirmation?
18 posted on 06/30/2004 10:48:06 AM PDT by Dimensio (Join the Monthly Internet Flash Mob: http://tinyurl.com/3xj9m)
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To: Dimensio
First: Both you and Judge Honeycutt are dead wrong that the oath is "Christian-centric." Neither the oath nor the opening proclamation make any reference to Jesus Christ. They both refer only to God. Jews, for example, believe in God and, as I'm sure you're aware, they are not Christians.

Second: The Matthew passage you've quoted does not forbid the taking of judicial oaths to God. Anyone who has seriously studied this subject knows this. Non-believers forever make the mistake of pulling an isolated passage out of the New Testament to "prove" Jesus taught something that He didn't.

Here is a reasonably clear and brief explanation of the meaning of Matthew 5:33-37 for you:

    Is Taking an Oath in Court Forbidden?

    This discussion deals with whether or not a Christian may "swear" to tell the truth in a court of law.

    Date: Thursday, October 5, 2000
    Author: Wayne Jackson
    URL: http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/oathQuestion.htm

    "In James 5:12, Christians are commanded not to swear any oath. Does this mean that we should not submit to practices such as swearing an oath of honesty in a court of law, or pledging allegiance to the American flag? Furthermore, is it also wrong to say 'I promise . . .'? I have never heard any Christian speaking against these things, but I want to make sure that I understand this matter correctly."

    First, let me point out that the term "swear," as employed in our modern society, has two distinct senses. It is used as an equivalent for "profanity," which, of course, no Christian should ever use. Also, though, the term "swear" may refer to a "legal oath."

    The question above pertains to this latter usage. Is it proper, for example, in a court setting to answer in the affirmative when asked: "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth -- so help you God?" The following facts may help us put the matter into focus:
    1. An oath is not intrinsically evil. Jehovah bound himself under an oath to Abraham when he promised to bless the patriarch (cf. Heb. 6:13-14). With reference to the priesthood of Christ, God "hath sworn, . . . 'You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek'" (Psa. 110:4).

      Since the Lord is perfect, one must conclude that an oath per se is not sinful.

    2. When Jesus was on trial, the high priest said: "I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the son of God" (Mt. 26:63). The word "adjure" translates the Greek exorkizo, which means "to extract an oath, to force an oath" (J.H. Thayer, Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 224). Caiaphas put the Lord under oath, hoping that he would incriminate himself.

      And Jesus honestly replied, "You have said" (su eipas), which, as language authorities note, "is a Greek affirmative reply" (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, I.218). Mark's parallel has it even plainer: "I am" (Mk. 14:62). This is the same expression used by Jesus when Judas asked the Lord, "Is it I?" (Mt. 26:25).
    3. Paul employed an oath when he wrote to the Corinthians: "But I call God for a witness upon my soul, that to spare you I forbare to come unto Corinth" (2 Cor. 1:23; cf. Rom. 1:9). And remember, he wrote these words by inspiration.

      Observe the apostle's strong statement in this passage: "Now concerning the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not" (Gal. 1:20).
    4. The Scriptures warn against "false swearers" (1 Tim. 1:10), which would seem to be a needless specific if all swearing, of any sort, is prohibited.

    What, then, is the meaning of James' prohibition?

    Since it is apparent that a respectful, sincere, legal oath is not condemned in the Scriptures, the prohibition of James 5:12 (cf. also Mt. 5:33-37) must pertain to something else. A different kind of swearing must be in view in these passages. What is it? Let me introduce the testimony of several respected scholars.

    J.T. Mueller, a professor at Concordia Theological Seminary, describes sinful swearing as that which is "false, blasphemous and frivolous" as well as the assumption of oaths regarding "uncertain things" (Wycliffe Dictionary of Theology, 382).

    Professor D. Edmond Hiebert says that the New Testament condemns the "indiscriminate, light, or evasive use of oaths" (Wycliffe Bible Dictionary, 1219).

    Guy N. Woods noted that oaths that are condemned involve the "flippant, frivolous and profane" use of God's name. Woods pointed out that the prohibitions of Matthew 5:33-37 and James 5:12 have no reference to sincere judicial oaths. His discussion of these matters is very thorough (Commentary on James, 288-294).

    That all oaths of every kind were not forbidden is evident within the context of Jesus' discussion of this theme in the sermon on the mount. In the context of condemning certain oaths, the Lord said, "but you shall perform unto the Lord your oaths" (Mt. 5:33).

    Finally, as to the Pledge of Allegiance, there is nothing in this historic pledge that is at variance with the principles of Christianity. It is simply an affirmation of devotion to the laws of the government under which we live. This is entirely consistent with the instruction of Romans 13:1ff (cf. 1 Pet. 2:13), which enjoins obedience and respect for the "powers that be."

    Of course one's allegiance to his nation is always subservient to his loyalty to God, and whenever the two come into conflict, obedience to the Lord takes precedence (Acts 4:19-20; 5:29).


    © 1998 - 2004 by Christian Courier Publications.

19 posted on 06/30/2004 11:14:56 AM PDT by Bonaparte
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To: Dimensio

"so help me God" is to remind the witness/suspect/etc that they are swearing to tell God the truth, and that God knows all and sees all and therefore you may not lie to God. That was the intent of the oath.


20 posted on 06/30/2004 11:18:09 AM PDT by Gunrunner2
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