Posted on 06/26/2004 5:35:33 PM PDT by KriegerGeist
Yeah, I thought after I typed that that it may've come across the wrong way, but I figured I'd wait & see if it actually did before I returned to it. When I said "barely claw into the city" I was thinking timeframes not geography. I didn't mean to say we barely made it into the outskirts, but that we briefly had a loose grip over most of the city. It would've taken a lot more action to actually pacify the town so that's more what I meant to say.
Fallujah was encircled on April 5th.
Hmm, if and when they kill him they just might take the journalist down with him.
I do wish we had fought the battle of Fallujah differently, that's for sure. Got my fingers crossed that the new Iraqi administration will go in there and finish it once and for all, but it sure is hard to be hopeful that'll really happen.
My only point - and this was my only intended point, was that the offensive was called off because the pace of fatalities was becoming a serious political liability. Part of that was meant to imply that if we are to resume the offensive, we should be prepared for some comparable level of fatalities and not 'panic' if that happens..
Everything else that got read into my remark was unintended, though it is true that I do not think we had any kind of firm grip over Fallujah or even close to it. If we did, we would not have withdrawn after all that bloodletting. I guess that worked its way into my comment even though I was not aiming for that point.
And, no, I don't believe we can lose anything in Iraq if we have the political will to carry out the mission at hand, whatever that may be at a given time.
MOAB.....Massive Ordinance Air Blast
I don't know the policy of FR inregards to posting a mpg
seems a terrorist was taking aim at a US tank with a RPG..
..what he didn't know was two US snipers had him in their site..first was a glancing shot right behind him..the second shot....there was no doubt..
I have the link, but it is rather graphic to the unwarned eye and mind..so if anyone wants it send a private message.
Doogle
This is from a May 1st article:
"The Fallujah force will be under the ultimate command of the U.S. Marines.
Gen. John Abizaid, chief of U.S. operations in the Middle East warned that "it may be necessary to have a strong fight in there,'' if the insurgents don't cooperate.
Abizaid said the United States was sticking to most of the objectives outlined when the Marines stormed Fallujah on April 5 -- mainly to seize men who killed and mutilated four American contractors and force foreign fighters to leave the city.
"Clearly, we will not tolerate the presence of foreign fighters,'' Abizaid said. "We will insist on the heavy weapons coming off the streets. We want the Marines to have freedom of maneuver along with the Iraqi security forces.''
Marines Hand Over Positions in Fallujah
Has any of that been achieved? If not, what was the point?
The operation began with the move to encircle, not with the completion of encirclement.. Look, you are obviously viewing that mission narrowly and I am viewing it broadly. If one takes the narrow view, the number of KIA directly within the city limits of Fallujah will be significantly lower (though notably higher than 10).
Someone needs to snag Damien McElroy's ass up off the tarmac and make him point out "Omar" or go to jail as a terrorist. One can only hope that Omar and his kind are guarding Damiens hotel someday soon. Presstitutes who do such to get the story or picture are no better than the terrorist trash we are up against around the world. Put em up against the wall and film their execution with their own damn camera.
Damn.......
I don't mean to belabor things, because I think we're on the same side here and don't really disagree on the big picture. But I think you're dead wrong about the reasons the offensive was called off. It wasn't because of large losses on our side. It was because of the widespread propaganda of a "Fallujah Massacre" of civilians. It became politically untenable. Members of the Iraqi Governing Council were threatening to quit, accusing us of committing "genocide". That's why we pulled out. And we and the Iraqis, but mostly the Iraqis, will be paying the price for that decision for a long time.
If you were talking to me, too . . . No, it has not. Somebody obviously got Dubya's ear and gave him some very bad advice, imo. But I could be wrong; the Iraqi army may in fact be able to go in there after June 30 and do what we never could (because of our politically correct squeamishness). I'm willing to wait and see. But I'm not comfortable with it at all and my expectations are very low.
OK, that is a very legitimate point in my view. I actually don't disagree with you but I do want to qualify how I agree with you. Due to the propaganda you mentioned, there was a very real risk of general uprising in other parts of the Sunni Triangle. We also had the escalating Sadr militia stand-off which was threatening to spill over across the Shiite cities (even though in hindsight I don't think that was ever a genuine imminent risk).
The point I was trying to convey - and which I did extremely poorly - was that the pace of fatalities in April was becoming a serious problem. I do think, however, that they would've pressed on with a completion of the Fallujah operation were it not for the risk of having similar disorder spreading across other cities throughout the summer. Not only would we have had the ongoing 100+ KIA a month, but the June 30th handover would almost certainly have been aborted had that happened.
So, I think a totality of those circumstances led to the conclusion that the operation was politically untenable at the time. It was never even remotely close to militarily untenable. Had that pace continued it would've presented a huge and growing problem on the homefront based on the way things were looking at the time. What I'm undecided about is whether the arrived-at solution actually solved things or just postponed them.
BTW, oftentimes I seriously wonder whether America has the stomach for 'real' war anymore. It makes me support having our overpowering, ultratechnical, hyperexpensive, kickass military all the more because we can dispense with most enemies from a comfortable, 'agreeable' distance..
I wonder though if we have the stomach for serious battle though. (By "we" I mean in the national sense of course).
I meant ultra-technological, not ultra-technical (there's probably a better word for what I'm saying, but I'm really tired and it's not coming to me).
I see your point and I agree. Both things (propaganda about civilian casualties and fears of a general uprising) played into the decision.
In my opinion, it's a decision we and the Iraqis will regret. But given the circumstances at the time, I don't know if we could have made any other decision, politically. (As you said, militarily we could have taken Fallujah)
My only hope now is that the Iraqi forces, with Allawi's go-ahead, will have the strength and fortitude to do what needs to be done in Fallujah (with U.S. backup if necessary). Time will tell.
Actually, I suspect the "journalist" made up most of the story...
If this "story" gets out amongst the "shooters", this guy's ass isn't worth a Canadian "loony"...
Semper Fi
And this is a surprise to anyone because .....????
You can't tell me that a USMC general was naive enough to come up with our withdrawal "strategery". It had to have come from Washington, DC.
..they blew it again.
Agreements are only good when both sides live up to each others commitments.
I said it a month ago....as far as Fallajuh goes..we should have cleaned house
Doogle
Well, I'm pretty sure we're on the same wavelength now, so that's a good thing! =)
Our actual disagreement, if any, seems very slight. Almost all of it is just that 4/5 of my brain tends to shut down and everything seems to come out wrong when I'm on the verge of falling asleep like this.
Speaking of which: it's off to bed for me! G'nite!
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