Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) -- As president of the Christian Coalition of Alabama, John Giles is no stranger to a pew. Yet he remembers well the time he got lost in a Roman Catholic church.
"I couldn't even follow the order of service, it was so foreign to me," Giles says of that day some six years ago.
Since then he's found his way and a new home in the Roman Catholic church — a home that might seem foreign to the overwhelmingly Protestant church population of Alabama.
"I have to admit to you that the whole time that I was in that church service, I was reduced to tears, and I couldn't explain it," Giles said Monday in an interview with The Associated Press.
"In fact," he jokes, "you would have thought I had been spending the whole weekend down at the House of the Rising Sun down in New Orleans, that I had all this sin in my life that I had to get out."
In any case, Giles and his wife, Deborah, were received into the Catholic Church at St. Peter's Parish in Montgomery on Easter Sunday.
Such a decision normally wouldn't be a matter of public interest, but Giles says he anticipated the questions that have followed his conversion from the Protestant faith.
"It would be nice if my private, Christian walk could be my private, Christian walk, but it's very difficult in my job for that to be the case," he says.
Giles says he knew the questions would come because as a Protestant he, too, had mistaken notions about Catholics. And the most frequent question he gets from his friends is "why?"
With that in mind he wrote an eight-page letter explaining his reasoning. In it, he explains that he had attended a variety of Protestant churches in Montgomery, including Christian Life Church and River of Life Church.
But once he visited the Roman Catholic church, he found himself in awe of its history and ritual, particularly its use of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch in each service.
Trips to Israel and Rome spurred his curiosity. And the deeper he looked into the faith — which is the largest in the United States but lags behind Southern Baptists and other Protestant denominations in the South — the more he says he realized that many of his beliefs about Catholicism had been wrong.
"There is a perception among Protestants — you kind of have this perception that if you're Episcopal or Catholic, you're not even saved, you're not born again, which is totally a myth," he says.
He recalls one example from the New Year's holiday, which he spent in Florida with the chairman of his board. He had told the chairman of his and Deborah's plans to convert, and he says they were well-received.
"But we went to some other friends of theirs' house on one of the nights we were down there," Giles remembers. "And so we're sitting around visiting and this one lady was teaching a Sunday School class on cults. And she began to name off all the cults that she'd be teaching and named Catholic in there."
He acknowledges that the reaction by his Protestant constituents may be mixed.
"We didn't make this change to win friends and influence people and do it from a popularity standpoint, because we knew that in the state of Alabama, this is probably not a popular position to take in the Christian movement," he says. "So it remains to be seen."
But he hopes they, like he and his wife, will keep an open mind.
"We hope that we could have a small contribution to building bridges where there weren't bridges," he says. "Because Christians are Christians. There's no such thing as Christians and Catholics."
But it isn't Rome's. Rome teaches that the physical body of christ is the word of God. Problem is, Christ was the word of God before he put on flesh. Picture for a moment, putting on a pair of clothes. It was you before the clothes, now it's you with clothes. Now, if you take those clothes off, are we eating you by eating the clothes - no. But the Israelites were eating the bread of life in the OT times per Isaiah 52 which you guys can't touch. How can one turn bread and wine into Christ and eat him if he hasn't come yet. A stunning paradox with no answer, unless you're catholic and can ignore scriptures. I think even the Noachides can tell you that from scripture. I know the Jews can. It was a Jew that pointed it out to me long ago. So it's puzzling that the "one true church" gets such things so wrong.
Meant to ping you to the above.
Thanks for your reply.
Revelation 22:18 is usually interpreted to mean changing scripture - some would say it refers only to Rev. ("the prophecy of this book") since the "book" we know as the New Testament (a collection of "books") was not yet in existence.
That aside, if you interpret it to not adding to scripture, I don't see how your preacher (or any religious writer) wouldn't be violating if you use it in that manner.
Perhaps we're not defining "sola scriptura" the same way; might help if you told how you use the term.
best regards...
My interp is just what it says "scripture alone". Maybe I do have it wrong and I'd like to know. Thanks.
Bumping this nonsense for later direct rebuttal from Vatican II Vol 1. Has been posted before; but, showing you guys liars on one thread apparently isn't enough. You never learn.
Such (in)action is not limited to this thread. Take a look at some of the off-shore outsourcing threads. When a request is made for a link to some of the statements being represented as fact, rarely is one given. Sometimes you end up with "I know what I'm talking about, you don't, you're a free-traitor, etc., etc. "
Whatever. In our debate class in college (was pretty good class to take I thought), if anyone tried these "tactics", they would be handed their hat - in pieces. It takes a little more than anger to make a point.
In a Christ-centered life, the form of ritual is secondary.
This could be FR's longest running post...
"Sins must be expiated...on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments" - (vol 1, p. 63)
“Those who believe in [Christ] have always...carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others and to help their brothers obtain salvation from God.” - (Vol. 1, p. 65).
“The treasury includes the prayers and good works of the blessed Virgin Mary plus the prayers and good works of all the saints who attained their own salvation.” - (Vol. 1, p. 66).
“That the treasury of those who attain their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in the saving of their brothers. Those who believe in Christ, have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others.” - (Vol. 1, p. 66).
a treasury entrusted by Christ to the blessed Peter“From the most ancient times in the church good works were also offered to God for the SALVATION OF SINNERS...” - (Vol. 1, p. 68).
"From the most ancient times in the church, good works were always offered to God for the salvation of sinners. The prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that the penitant was washed, cleansed and redeemed with their help" - (Vol 1, p.68)
“a treasury entrusted by Christ to the blessed Peter and his successors Christ Vicars on earth, to distribute to the faithful for their salvation.” - (Vol 1, p. 70).
Indulgiences "..offer efficatious helps in the task of winning salvation.." - (vol 1, p. 74)
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" - (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1. Vol 1, p. 75)
"We believe that the souls of all those who die in the grace of Christ -- whether they must still make expiation in the fire of Purgatory, or whether from the moment they leave their bodies they are received by Jesus into Paradise like the good thief -- go to form that People of God ...." - (Vol. 2, p. 394)
(1475) In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exist between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
(1476) We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.”
(1477) This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.
(1478) An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
See also INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA
Now, This is out of your own documents. Official council documents - mirrored in Catechism and in the indulgetiarum Doctrina penned by the Pope. I might note that you have to search long and hard to find much of this material on the web from Vatican II. The more brazen it is, the harder it is to find.
This speaks directly to the treasury of merits or graces compiled from what we are told is the finished work on the Cross; but, which apparently must be mixed with the merits of Mary, the saints, and Lord knows who else in order to form this treasury out of which the Roman church dispenses Grace a bit at a time like treats to a Dog. Never getting a full measure. This is another Gospel. None of this is in Scripture nor is it scriptural. But this is the Roman system of salvation as compared to what Paul preached:
Acts 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
[29] Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
[30] And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
[31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Goodness me - it's the spirit that is saved...
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
[9] Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But lets back up to See Jesus in action:
Luke 18:40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
[41] Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
[42] And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
[43] And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw [it], gave praise unto God.
Christianity teaches that Christ's work on the Cross is finished. He has redeemed our sins. All we have to do is believe it and accept it. We can't work our way to it, that would make grace out to be a wage payed to us. It is rather a free gift that you cannot earn and it comes only from God. God's Grace is in His hand of judgement and mercy - not in the hands of men that they might abuse it as the Pharisees and Saducees abused their positions. Remember, The Judaizers preached salvation through Christ as well, And Paul called them Accursed because they added to the Gospel. And they added what - circumcision and the law. Catholicism has added far more than these from Judea; but, have added in like fashion to make a new law to burden the people with - one that requires people to do what the old law didn't even teach - expiation of one's own sins to gain salvation. They did have to have blood sacrifice to clear their sin; but, it was God that did the clearing, not them.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
We are not under law. We are under grace. As scripture says, the law is a curse. And no man is justified by it.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Romans 3 seems pretty insightful.. I like especially this part: Romans 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I could add far more; but, it's getting to be a book and I'm sure of your response already.
FR's longest running post, just as an FYI is to my knowledge the "neverending Story: The Christian Chronicles. I would have to check the date of the earliest posting to be sure now how old it is. I was in it pretty early and stayed in for quite a while. And I still go back now and again to see what's up. It is still ongoing and has been running for years to say the least. I want to say 3-4 but I think it's been longer. Feels like it anyway lol
Do you have a link to that thread? I'm rather curious...
Never mind, I found it. Wow. Just wow.
LOL, I told ya. And it's multiple threads. I have an archive locally of the first couple hundred of the threads. It started back when thread lengths were much smaller.
My interp is just what it says "scripture alone"
Obviously those two words have no verb. To begin to place it as a doctrine, we'd have to finish it: Scripture alone [ verb, etc. ].
The doctrine of sola scriptura has a definite meaning in theology. I've heard some that I see a great deal of truth to. And I'm particular partial to Huston Smith's description in its original use as the Protestant Principle. It's not what most protestants would think it means today.
Most often now-a-days I see it used to mean "no church authority; no teaching based on tradition, no church teachings other than the Bible (and their interpretation)". Something like that anyway.
I'm really short of time right now, maybe we can discuss more, but I'll leave you with a couple of verses that Catholics point to in response to what some call sola scriptura:
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thes. 2:15)thanks very much for your reply, and best wishes..."And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Tim. 2:2)
It's dead, Jim...
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