Rumsfeld should have backed them up

[motherof2]

If these actions (photos) are simply an effective method of interrogating Middle Easterners, then why the court marshals to begin with ... Rumsfeld should have backed them up and said ...hey this is how we have to deal with these people , don't be naive... of course he'd be the one without a head ...obviously there was no politically correct way to handle this one. The American public has a lot to learn.

[motherof2]

If these actions (photos) are simply an effective method of interrogating Middle Easterners, then why the court marshals to begin with ... Rumsfeld should have backed them up and said ...hey this is how we have to deal with these people , don't be naive... of course he'd be the one without a head ...obviously there was no politically correct way to handle this one. The American public has a lot to learn.

[One More Time]

So you think American GI's are being sacrificed for some higher end?

[Cincinatus' Wife]

May 12, 2004, 2:19PM

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2565504

Rumsfeld defends interrogation techniques
Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld defended military interrogation techniques in Iraq today, rejecting complaints that they violate international rules and may endanger Americans taken prisoner.

Rumsfeld told a Senate committee that Pentagon lawyers had approved methods such as sleep deprivation and dietary changes as well as rules permitting prisoners to be made to assume stress positions.

Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also noted that the rules require prisoners to be treated humanely at all times.

But Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill. said some of the approved techniques "go far beyond the Geneva Convention," a reference to international rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war.

Rumsfeld spoke after two weeks of controversy provoked by photographs of American military personnel abusing prisoners in Iraq. An American was beheaded in a videotaped execution posted to a militant Islamic web site on Tuesday -- a killing that captors said was revenge for the abuse of Iraqis in the Abu Ghraib prison.

With lawmakers were immersed in the flap surrounding the pictures of abuse at the prison formerly run by Saddam Hussein, President Bush declared there was "no justification" for the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq.

He said the terrorists who executed Nicholas Berg wanted to "shake" America's resolve in bringing democracy to the war-torn country.

The Defense Department is conducting multiple investigations into the abuse, and congressional hearings are under way, as well. At the insistence of lawmakers, the Pentagon arranged for members of Congress to view photos and videos during the day. They depict the abuse, including examples of prisoners forced into sexually humiliating poses.

Durbin noted that one American GI was missing in Iraq, his whereabouts unknown. Given the circumstances, he asked Rumsfeld, "wouldn't it help if there was clarity from you and from this administration that we would abide by the Geneva Convention when it comes to civilian and military detainees unequivocally?"

Expanding his question to include detainees in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, he asked whether such a declaration would "also serve to help American prisoners" held captive.

Rumsfeld replied that the Geneva Convention applies to all prisoners held in Iraq, but not to those held in Guantanamo Bay, where detainees captured in the global war on terror are held.

Any al-Qaida or Taliban personnel taken prisoner are to be treated consistent with the Geneva Convention, under a decision made by Bush, Rumsfeld added.

He said the distinction is that the international rules govern wars between countries but not those involving groups such as al-Qaida. "Terrorists don't comply with the laws of war. They go around killing innocent civilians," Rumsfeld added.

A second Democrat, Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, said that a report issued in March by Human Rights Watch "corroborated such things" as sleep deprivation, prisoners kept naked in sleeping cells or forced to stand or kneel for hours.

The report covers prisoners held in Afghanistan, he said, adding it "appears to be exactly the same technique" as was employed in Iraq.

Rumsfeld and other Pentagon officials have said the abuses in Abu Ghraib were unauthorized actions taken by a handful of personnel, and Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who investigated the mistreatment, testified to that effect before a Senate committee on Tuesday.

Half a world away, there were further repercussions.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt announced that two more American soldiers have been ordered to stand trial in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal although no date for the courts-martial was set. Sgt. Javal Davis, 26, of Maryland and Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II of Buckingham, Va., were ordered to undergo a general court-martial, Kimmitt said. Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits, of Hyndman, Pa., goes on trial May 19 before a special court martial, which cannot levy as severe a sentence as a general court-martial.

Taguba told the Senate Armed Services Committee that military police who acted improperly did so "of their own volition." But several senators questioned whether low-ranking soldiers would have created the sexually humiliating scenarios by themselves.

"It implies too much knowledge of what would be particularly humiliating to these Muslim prisoners," said Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine. "And that is why, even though I do not yet have the evidence, I cannot help but suspect that others were involved, that military intelligence personnel were involved, or people further up the chain of command."

Sen. Ben Nelson, D-Neb., challenged Taguba on his statement that Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who headed the 800th Military Police Brigade at the prison, bore responsibility for a breakdown in discipline that led to abuse.

Taguba testified that orders were issued taking tactical control of the Abu Ghraib facility away from Karpinski and giving it to Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

"It was clear that he was directed to be the forward operating base commander there for security detainees and force protection," Taguba said. "However, General Karpinski challenged that and she noted that in her recorded testimony."

Taguba said the order placing Pappas in charge of prison policy where Karpinski's MPs worked created a confusing situation and was contrary to Army doctrine. Nonetheless, he found that Karpinski retained overall responsibility for the MPs in her brigade and assigned much of the blame for the abuse to inadequate leadership on her part.

Asked to put in simple words how the abuses happened, Taguba said: "Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down. Lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant."

Karpinski has been suspended and issued an official letter of admonishment in connection with the abuse. She has not been charged and has asserted other officers are attempting to make her a scapegoat.

[alnick]

Don't confuse the perps' legal defense for reality.

[Bommer]

.hey this is how we have to deal with these people

By stacking them in a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy sandwich stack?

[monday]

"Taguba said the order placing Pappas in charge of prison policy where Karpinski's MPs worked created a confusing situation and was contrary to Army doctrine. Nonetheless, he found that Karpinski retained overall responsibility for the MPs in her brigade and assigned much of the blame for the abuse to inadequate leadership on her part. "

Even though Karpinski was not present and Pappas was in charge? I smell a rat. I suspect Taguba is a fixer. Sent in to cover @ss.

[Howlin]

Uh oh. The facts!

[motherof2]

Thank you for the informative article :-)

[KriegerGeist]

"By stacking them in a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy sandwich stack?"

Yea, why not?If they would have used pork products instead of porn pictures to cause them to be 'defiled before Allah', the liberals and the media would still have had a field day.

This is my opinion on the matter:

These prisoners, if it were told by the military or press as Ollie North told it (because of the section of the prison they were in) are: Al Qaeda, Saddam's Fedayeen, Saddam's 'Elite Republican Guard known as "M9" or "M-something", they are (I fully believe) largely foreigners which include Syrians, many Iranians, Palestinians (who do the suicide crap), Saudi Arabians, Pakis and an assortment of other foreign fighters-terrorists-murderers.

The "religious" ones believe that they are in "Jihad" (their holy war) and no torture or threats of death will brake them nor make them talk. Why? Because they are doing this for Allah and will go to him when it's over and be greatly rewarded as martyrs in the cause of Islam. BUT, not if they are not "pure". These "staged" pictures (even the wounds and abuse are perhaps fake and the real dead ones could be bodies of the KIA and posed for effect before buried wrapped in what? to prevent entrance to paradise?). How does an warrior for Allah explain these actions to Allah desiring from him paradise and virgins?

These picture are better than actual torture. They perhaps worked better than firing guns near them. Threatening pictures of what "could happen" can be worse than having it actually happen...to the religious...to those not yet 'defiled'.

You and I both know that these pictures were never meant for "outside viewing". These are internal interrogation and psyche-ops tools and methods of extracting need intel for our benefit in Iraq and what is planned for outside Iraq...where did they come from, who is funding them, arming them, transporting them, how do the get into Iraq and all that and more...

Whoever got these pictures out to expose them to the enemy-friendly-sympathizing media is an internal enemy. Now, many good loyal and true soldiers will be sacrificed at the alter of "PC" They will be publicly humiliated, careers, reputations and futures will be destroyed and they probably didn't do anything wrong when you consider those they were dealing with. A Christian member of the Iraqi Council said on CBN News that our military are being 'too nice and too easy on these prisoners'. He suggested that we should have used the actual torture and then the death penalty for these terrorist scum-bags.

[beckett]

It is you, not the American public, who has a "lot to learn." You must be out of your mind to suggest that Donald Rumsfeld would ever support what these troops did.

These photos were taken by incredibly undisciplined, foolish and sadistic American MPs, grinning like bozos while they committed gross and abusive acts in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a signatory.

I cannot recall any period in the last six years that has me made me more disappointed in Free Republic than seeing the excuses that some on this forum have offered for these disgusting, UN-AMERICAN and inexcusable acts.

Open your eyes! America's enemies have been handed a powerful propaganda tool that they will use for decades!

The MPs of the 800th Military Police brigade have disgraced their country, written a deplorable new chapter in the PERMANENT history of the United States, set back the effort in Iraq (putting troops on the ground there at greater risk), encouraged our enemies foreign and domestic, distracted the nation from the real threats in the War on Terror, bear some portion of responsibility for the beheading of Nick Berg, and have given John Kerry a campaign issue that could very well get George Bush thrown out of the White House in November.

They deserve nothing but CONDEMNATION.

[Darlin']

"Taguba said the order placing Pappas in charge of prison policy where Karpinski's MPs worked created a confusing situation and was contrary to Army doctrine. Nonetheless, he found that Karpinski retained overall responsibility for the MPs in her brigade and assigned much of the blame for the abuse to inadequate leadership on her part.

Asked to put in simple words how the abuses happened, Taguba said: "Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down. Lack of discipline, no training whatsoever and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant."

I guess you missed the next paragraph...

Admittedly, I'm not real familiar with the pecking order in various branches of the military but I'm sure that Brigadier General Karpinksi out ranked Colonel Pappas. Furthermore, Karpinski had oversight for all prisons. So the buck ultimately stopped with her. If the circumstances were reversed, if we were viewing photos of happy prisoners in a sparkling facility guarded by spit polished troops, Karpionski and her apologists would demand she receive all the credit. Sadly, that isn't the case, she allowed the situation to spin out of control and now she wants to worm out of taking responsibility for her failure.

[monday]

"Brigadier General Karpinksi out ranked Colonel Pappas. Furthermore, Karpinski had oversight for all prisons."

True, but since the abuses came from this particular prison, which was under command of Colonel Pappas, wouldn't you expect him to be more aware of what was actually occurring in THIS prison than Karpinski, who had oversight for all prisons? Since Pappas was Military intelligence and Karpinski was military police, Papas was not even directly responsible to Karpinski.

Taguba admitted that this situation was against Army doctrine but still blamed Karpinski for the situation. This does not make logical sense. How can you blame Karpinski when she was not physically there and the commander of the prison was not under her direct command?

[Darlin']

You'll need to ask someone with more knowledge of the military than I have to be sure. However, I kinda think Pappas would have been under Karpinski command even though they had different areas of responsibility. Karpinski was, indeed, at Abu Ghruib (sp) some of the time and so far the photos we have seen were of her MPs and a female guest none were of MI soldiers. The lapses in policy and the lack of discipline at that facility were due to her negligence.

[beckett]

From the officila "ARTICLE 15-6 INVESTIGATION OF THE 800th MILITARY POLICE BRIGADE"

13. (U) I find that there is sufficient credible information to warrant an Inquiry UP Procedure 15, AR 381-10, US Army Intelligence Activities, be conducted to determine the extent of culpability of MI personnel, assigned to the 205th MI Brigade and the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib (BCCF). Specifically, I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry to determine the full extent of their culpability.

Pappas is not getting off.

[beckett]

I think you would benefit by reading the report I cited. I don't have a link to it, but I downloaded it from CNN some days ago.

One of the misconceptions about the case seems to be that no officers have been reprimanded. But the report shows that all officers in the chain of command of the 372nd MP company have been reprimanded, from the company commander right up to BG Karpinski.

The MI (military intelligence) guys may be handled slightly differently due to the sensitivity of their duties, but they are not escaping investigation.

[monday]

"These photos were taken by incredibly undisciplined, foolish and sadistic American MPs, grinning like bozos while they committed gross and abusive acts in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a signatory. "

You contradict yourself. In your posts #14 and #15 you say that all of their commanders are guilty. If all of their commanders are given reprimands how can you only blame the "sadistic American MP's"?

I don't know what happened so I will wait for the final report even though I know that it may not reveal everything. I just question Tagubas motives. He has a real motive to limit the extent of responsibility and cover up the responsibility of those higher up the chain of command.

The efforts of Taguba to lay all this at the feet of Karpinski seems very suspect. I admit I am beginning to believe her claims that she is being made a scapegoat given the fact that military intelligence was given command of one of her prisons against Army doctrine.

Perhaps military intelligence is responsible for this after all? That is certainly what it is going to look like to outsiders, particularly Arabs.

[highlandbreeze]

Because, as per a variety of articles, Gen. Karpinski knew there were problems. Imparticularly, lack of training and she did nothing.

[varon]

Your point(s) are well taken and I agree 100%. Yes, we do have enemies within.

[highlandbreeze]

How much higher up the chain of command do you propose?

Also, most people with an IQ 2 points below plant life knows sexual abuse is illegal. You cannot blame the officers and absolve the MPs. Their faces are in the pictures, they committed the crimes.

[varon]

I cannot recall any period in the last six years that has me made me more disappointed in Free Republic than seeing the excuses that some on this forum have offered for these disgusting, UN-AMERICAN and inexcusable acts.

I truly hope to God that if I or any member of my family ever have to go to battle, we never have anyone with your attitude by our side. Your cavalier PC attitude is as, if not more dangerous than the enemy and I pray for any man that turns his back to you.