Posted on 05/02/2004 12:49:25 AM PDT by DIM1
Follow-up to previous mailing “Silencing the Bible”: See News article below these comments. As far as I’m concerned this issue is not so much about Homosexuals or Lesbians in particular - but about liberty. This is about what happens when equality of outcome, sensitivity, and diversity are given precedence over all other rights and liberties – freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of association. Can’t happen here? Guess again. Remember the Clinton administration supported a case against the right of the Boy Scouts of America to exclude Gay men from leadership positions. Anyone who thinks that would end there is fooling themselves. These people – and I mean radical egalitarians in general – of all orientations, i.e. the left – may lapse into silence for rare moments, but don’t ever quit. Please remember that in November. DBA Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, Homosexuality, Freedoms of Association, Canada Printer-Friendly Version By Jimmy Moore 'Chill Bill' Passes Canadian House, Makes Free Speech Against Gays a Crime Talon News April 30, 2004 OTTAWA, ONTARIO (Talon News) -- A bill introduced by Canadian parliament member Svend Robinson that would make free speech against homosexuals a crime passed in the House of Commons. The "Chill Bill," or C-250, passed by a vote of 140-110 on Wednesday despite objections from the religious community that religious speech would be limited by the law if they speak out against homosexuality. If it becomes law, then the "Chill Bill," which is also known as the "Bible As Hate Literature" bill, would ban speech that would be used in condemnation of homosexuality or homosexual acts. This is similar to the anti-hate speech law in Sweden where a Pentecostal minister is now facing charges for using the Bible to point out that homosexuality is a sin. Robinson, who belongs to the socialist New Democratic Party in the Canadian parliament, has championed civil liberties issues in the past and is openly gay. The "Chill Bill" would specifically amend Section 318 of the hate crime law by adding the phrase "sexual orientation" as the fifth protected class of people, adding to color, race, religion, and ethnic origin. "It's a bill that recognizes that when hate crimes are perpetrated [in Canada] against those who are of a minority religion or race or ethnic origin or color, that Canada says this is wrong," Robinson said in defense of his bill. Robinson asserts that homosexuals should also be included as part of the language of the hate crimes law. "But there's one group in the country and that is gays and lesbians -- the group that has more hate crimes, more violence perpetrated against it -- that isn't included in the hate propaganda laws," Robinson notes. However, Evangelical Fellowship of Canada President Bruce Clemenger believes this bill would have a decidedly "chilling effect" on people of faith who believe homosexuality is wrong. "Whether this law leads to the prosecution of religious groups or not, it's almost certain to have a chilling effect," he told the Calgary Herald. "Will the Gideons still be allowed to place Bibles in motel rooms?" Clemenger is concerned that the terms "hate" and "sexual orientation" are not defined in the legislation. The maximum penalty for these hate crime convictions is five years in prison. Robinson responds to this by saying his bill was drafted to prevent "gay bashing" and contends that the notion that religious speech would be silenced by the bill is "utterly without foundation." Even still, John McKay, a member of the Canadian parliament who voted against C-250, said those who oppose homosexuality will be forced to suffer the consequences of speaking out against them in the future if this bill becomes law. "Anybody who has views on homosexuality that differ from Svend Robinson's will be exposed rather dramatically to the joys of the Criminal Code," McKay told the Canadian Press. Canadian legislative observer Vic Toews said Robinson is simply advocating "fascism" to promote his radical agenda. Derek Rogusky, the vice president of family policy for Focus on the Family Canada, said any legislation that limits the rights of people of faith while giving more rights to gays generally favors homosexuals when challenged in court. "We've seen through the courts that when religious freedom comes up against gay rights, that in fact religious freedom tends to be more often than not the loser in those particular cases," Rogusky told CBC Newsworld. But religious objections to homosexuality are already being condemned in Canada. The Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission recently ruled that a newspaper ad that listed Biblical references in it opposing homosexuality amounted to a human rights offense. The newspaper and the man who took out the ad were forced to pay $1,500 each to three gay men who complained about it. And in British Columbia, the supreme court said a high school teacher's one-month suspension without pay should remain because he wrote letters to the editor in his local newspaper contending that nobody is born with homosexuality. Bill C-250 is now headed to the 105-member Canadian Senate for consideration.
Copyright © 2004 Talon News -- All rights reserved
Do you really think that Religion is not a right? If so, what is your conception of rights and what standard is it based on? I think a case might be made that - for some things - rights may have a wider and clearer application to innate characteristics than to certain kinds of choices - but that is to long a conversation to take up right this moment (though it would be good to do at some point). But, the conception of rights itself arose in the context of the Judeo-Christian Tradition - and is hard to entirely justify outside that tradition - and harder still without any connection to faith at all. Many very smart and well educated people have tried to do this over the last 2000 years or so. And, though they came up with many interesting, and even some useful ideas - on the whole I believe that their project has failed. That they strove (and strive) so hard at it just shows to me that G-d imbued us all with a conscience, which calls to us even if we don't know its designer. C.S. Lewis said as much in "Mere Christianity," Worth a read.
As far as reconciliation of rights goes - one of the most valuable contributions of those thinkers who apprehended expressed the concept of "Natural Rights" is the distinction between the Public and Private spheres of life. That in the public sphere we all equal citizens and should be treated as such by other citizens and our government - as long as we also respect the rights of others in return, and fulfill and observe those other duties required to preserve our republic and the rights of all, i.e. obey traffic laws support the military and judiciary, and help to sustain other institutions - such as marriage. But, in our own spaces we may live as we choice, associate with whom we want to, and make our own rules - as long as they are also compatible with the rights and duties of all.
Many of the conflicts between different rights may be reconciled through observance of this distinction - though its rough going in many cases anyway. For example homosexuals and lesbians may be free to live as they want as long as they don’t involve children, and keep it inside. They certainly have the right to kick out anyone who they want to from their own homes, clubs or whatever. All citizens have those rights, and we all should have the right to walk down the street without being harassed by others, but we don’t have the right to forcibly interfere with the protected expressions of others in either Private domains or public areas set aside for that purpose, and that includes all private media, (though time and availability might be restricted for the sake of children), public forums, and other private institutions. Places of Worship and Holy Scripture are doubly protected in this view by both rights obtaining to property and those particular to faith.
Sorry to be so abstract. This is not easy going for anyone – let alone yours truly. But being a fee people never is. Thank you! and, Be Well,
DIM1
Yes! I call it the "Euro-Disease". It's what happens when fear, and egalitarianism overwhelms liberty. Tocqueville saw it as the internal conflict inherent in democracy. Thought it would happen here though - but that was back when Europe was still ruled by kings and queens. They, Canada and Britain took the wrong model - Rousseau - rather than the American Founding Fathers. Too bad.I Like Canada and Canadians otherwise.
Thank you, and Be Well!
DIM1
Freedom of conscience is the rock bottom of this republic. To make judgments and express them in ones private life and public forums is the foundation of all other liberties. That's why "political correctness" is so vile. By making people incapable of hearing things they may not like it makes them incapable of being free.
Thank you, and be well!
DIM1
Wonder who has the beer franchise for the games down there? Don't think its Coors.
I'm not for banning "hate speech" in any case, free people can't have thin skins. But if they force the issue its only right to make sure its applied "fairly". No more Marxist-hate speech!
Be Well! DIM1
Are you Canadian? Do you know if there is unequal enforcement of that law? I would really like to know. I'm certain the day will come soon enough when we'll be given asylum to Canadians fleeing persecution for expressing their faith. I just pray we can keep the light going down here.
Bless you! Be Well,
DIM1
Good point! We need to exercise justice in our judgment of others and their beliefs - that is required of us - and we need to be accurate to do that. In the case of Moslems - treating all alike just drives more into the hands of the militants.
Thank you! and, be well
DIM1
Yes! A good point. I will try and apply that lesson in the future.
Thank you, and Be well
DIM1
This is why many of us faith full consider some of the "Churches: non other than a "business" front..
In Spirit...
Rev. J.D.
It probably will cross the border, but I wouldn't give it a good chance at passing -- at least not if the slumbering Christian communities here wake up to fight it.
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