Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Virgins and the Grapes: the "Christian" Origins of the Koran (Surprise!)
Chiesa. com ^ | Sandro Magister

Posted on 04/16/2004 3:38:37 PM PDT by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-72 next last
To: NYer
I guess the 72 virgins that the Jihadists will get are just a bunch of grapes. Boy, will they be disappointed!
21 posted on 04/16/2004 5:05:46 PM PDT by expatpat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
This is not new stuff. It is well known to historians and those doing Christian apologetics as regards Islam. Muhammad as exiled from his own tribe and fled to the Coptic Christians in Ethiopia.

Later he joined the tribes at Medina, of which the largest one (before he executed them all for treason) were Jewish Arabs. For 18 months, Muhammad had his followers bow to Jerusalem - not Mecca.

The Q'uran is a mishmash of Christian and Judaic teaching of the Scripture, with Arab paganism thrown in due to the black stone of the Kaballah in Mecca being such a prominent 'holy site' in Muhammad's time.

The Q'uran is a fraud, pure and simple. Why - because God does not contradict himself, yet the Q'uran is full of indefensible contradictions.
22 posted on 04/16/2004 5:18:44 PM PDT by txzman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Buy them en masse. A Koran in every urinal...
23 posted on 04/16/2004 6:52:50 PM PDT by TwilightDog ("The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast"--Oscar Wilde)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TwilightDog
BUMP
24 posted on 04/16/2004 7:05:35 PM PDT by Amalie (FREEDOM had NEVER been another word for nothing left to lose...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Regarding the "houri" - well, maybe. What the writer seems to be leaving out is all the pre-Islamic *folklore* that went into the Koran and which shaped beliefs about the Koran. There's are entire mythologies for instance about djinn ("genies") and Islamic "angels" that get woven in.
25 posted on 04/16/2004 8:16:20 PM PDT by valkyrieanne (Fallujah delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer
At least this guy is smart enough to head the advice of friends and not use his real name. I bet he would be dead pretty quick if he didn't do so.
26 posted on 04/16/2004 9:14:57 PM PDT by vpintheak (Our Liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: observer5
The Koran is a cheap RIP-OFF from Christian, Jewish and Hindu books.

Christian yes (and Jewish through Christian OT), but Hindu????? Don't forget that a lot of Judaic thought is also influenced by Zoroastrianism...
27 posted on 04/17/2004 5:01:59 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: NYer
From the review of Luxenberg's book at HUGOYE: JOURNAL OF SYRIAC STUDIES (University of St. Thomas):

A central question that this investigation raises is the motivation of Uthmân in preparing his redaction of the Qur’ân. Luxenberg presents the two hadîth traditions recounting how Uthmân came to possess the first manuscript. If Luxenberg’s analysis is even in broad outline correct, the content of the Qur’ân was substantially different at the time of Muhammad and Uthmân’s redaction played a part in the misreading of key passages. Were these misreadings intentional or not? The misreadings in general alter the Qur’ân from a book that is more or less harmonious with the New Testament and Syriac Christian liturgy and literature to one that is distinct, of independent origin.

A fascinating thought; imagine how a Koran that celebrates the eucharistic liturgy, rather than the blood-lust of a crazed warlord, may have changed the course of history.

As to whether Uthman's alterations were intentional, I would say there is no doubt -- the Arabs needed a body of law to govern their conquered subjects and elevate themselves above the dhimmis, and the selective bastardization of a text which may or may not have been written by a mythically heroic Arab warlord at the convenient behest of Allah was just the ticket.

28 posted on 04/17/2004 6:54:02 AM PDT by browardchad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer
An interesting post BTTT.
29 posted on 04/17/2004 7:44:03 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CyberAnt
"beware those having a form of Godliness, but denying the source, thereof"

I agree freely although you did not require me to....:)

I have read many linguistic studies that say "anti-christ" should not simply be understood to mean *against* Christ but *instead of* Christ.

The greatest peril is not those who overtly and obviously oppose Christianity but rather, those who propose "another Gospel".


30 posted on 04/18/2004 11:12:18 AM PDT by Salamander
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; Berosus
A Blast from the Past. Note: this topic is from 2004!

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

31 posted on 01/04/2007 9:53:34 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Ahmedumbass and the mullahcracy is doomed. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

All that is ancient in Arabian tradition derived from the Jews

Beyond these periods, Mahometan tradition is entirely worthless. It is not original, but taken at second hand from the Jews. Mahomet having claimed to be of the seed of Ishmael, the Jewish Rabbins who were gained over to his cause endeavoured to confirm the claim from the genealogies of the Old Testament and of rabbinical tradition. In the attempt to reconcile these with the received notions of the Arabs, Joktan (whom they found in Scripture to be an early immigrant into Arabia) became identified with Cahtan, the great ancestor of the southern tribes; while Mahomet's paternal line (which he himself declared could not be followed beyond Adnan, that is, about a century before the Christian era) was nevertheless traced up by fabricated steps, eighteen centuries farther, to Ishmael2. Both the legends and the ethnological assumptions or Mahometans regarding events prior to the Christian era, being thus derived directly from the Jews, possess no value of their own, and as evidence must be entirely rejected. They consist either of simple plagiarism, or they refer to Arabian personages and events of a very modern date, confounded in a rude and even ludicrous manner with the patriarchal characters and stories of the Old Testament2.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Muir/Life1/chapter2.htm


32 posted on 01/04/2007 10:41:42 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: NYer
A. – “At that time, there were no Arab schools – except, perhaps, for the Christian centers of al-Anbar and al-Hira, in southern Mesopotamia, or what is now Iraq. The Arabs of that region had been Christianized and instructed by Syrian Christians. Their liturgical language was Syro-Aramaic. And this was the vehicle of their culture, and more generally the language of written communication.”

Nope. At the time there were both Christian and Judaic schools in the cities of the Arabian peninsula. These cities were started by them as they lived there since the first century seeking refuge from predations of the Roman and Persian Empires. When these empires were seriously weakened by plague from Africa and no longer needed the Bedouin mercenaries, Muhammed organized them around his new religion. He had first attempted to sell it to the Jews and Christians of the Arabian peninsula but they told him to pound sand. He retooled the gizmo and set about to eradicate their presence and spoliate their possessions.
33 posted on 01/04/2007 10:49:50 PM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

I need new glasses...


34 posted on 01/04/2007 10:51:09 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: aruanan
...He had first attempted to sell it to the Jews and Christians of the Arabian peninsula but they told him to pound sand.

Hell hath no fury greater than a false prophet spurned.

pssst..this thread is from 2004.

35 posted on 01/04/2007 11:32:24 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Fred Nerks
pssst..this thread is from 2004.

Even if it were from 1997, it would still be worth the chance to let people know something of the real history of the Arabian peninsula.
36 posted on 01/05/2007 5:19:54 AM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: aruanan

most definitely!


37 posted on 01/05/2007 1:49:53 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: aruanan; Fred Nerks
Even if it were from 1997, it would still be worth the chance to let people know something of the real history of the Arabian peninsula.

Absolutely! I'm truly surprised that more freepes have not participated in this discussion.

My Maronite Catholic pastor is from Lebanon and speaks 8 languages, including Arabic. He also reads Aramaic, Latin, Hebrew and Koine Greek. Earlier this year, he attended a seminar given at a Cathoic College on the topic of Shar'ia. He intentionally brought along another parishioner for support. After the 'convert' finished delivering her presentation to a large audience of Muslims, she asked if there were any questions. My pastor, fully dressed in his clericals, raised his hand. He asked her why the Muslim holy book denied him his right to practice his Catholic faith. She assured him that it did not. He stood there defiantly and read the Sura from the Koran. She blushed and suggested that he had misunderstood it. He assured her that he had not misunderstood anything and then read the same Sura in Arabic. Everyone present turned towards him and then back to her, awaiting her response. Her blush rapidly flared into a violent shade of red. Ignoring his comments, she asked if there were any other questions. Father again raised his hand but she ignored him. He then passed his question to his companion.

Coming from a country where Christians have learned to co-exist with their Muslim neighbors, the Maronite Catholic priests live the words of Jesus Christ. During this summer's 30 day war, Muslims fled north into the Christian villages. There, they were housed, fed, and attended to by the Maronites. They were also invited to attend prayer services at the local Maronite parishes. One of the priests maintains a blog where he posted the most remarkable stories of children asking questions about Jesus. One boy asked him for a cross to wear. The priest told him he would give it to him if his parents gave their permission. They did.

After the cease fire, the Muslims returned to the south but invited the priest to come visit them. He did. On his first visit to their homes, one of the families explained to him that - had the tables been reversed - the Muslims would NEVER have welcomed the Maronite Catholics into their homes. They then proceeded to ply him with questions about Jesus and His teachings.

My pastor often refers to the Muslim faith as a heresy. Heresy, as you know, is a distortion of truth. I believe this German professor has found the key to that heresy but the Imams will fight back from fear of the Truth.

38 posted on 01/05/2007 6:37:08 PM PST by NYer (Apart from the cross, there is no other ladder by which we may get to Heaven. St. Rose of Lima)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: NYer
...I believe this German professor has found the key to that heresy but the Imams will fight back from fear of the Truth.

Letter to the Reader

To Muslims

May the Truth Set You Free

Islam is a caustic blend of regurgitated paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone prophet, conceived his religion solely to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist. And if you think these conclusions are shocking, wait until you see the evidence.

The critics of this work will claim that Prophet of Doom is offensive, racist, hatemongering, intolerant, and unnecessarily violent. I agree - but I didn't write those parts. They came directly from Islam’s scriptures. If you don't like what Muhammad and Allah said, don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

Others will say that I cherry-picked the worst of Islam to render an unfair verdict. They will charge that I took the Islamic scriptures out of context to smear Muhammad and Allah. But none of that is true. Over the course of these pages, I quote from almost every surah in the Qur’an - many are presented in their entirety. But more than that, I put each verse in the context of Muhammad’s life, quoting vociferously from the Sunnah as recorded by Bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, and Tabari - Islam’s earliest and more trusted sources. I even arrange all of this material chronologically, from creation to terror.

Predicting what he called the "Day of Doom" was Muhammad’s most often repeated prophecy. While it did not occur as he foretold in 1110 A.D., it nonetheless came true. Muslims and infidels alike have been doomed by Islam...

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam

39 posted on 01/05/2007 7:22:47 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download. Link on my bio page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: CyberAnt
The only relationship to Christianity is Ishmael's connection to Abraham.

And that's not an actual genealogical connection.
40 posted on 01/06/2007 7:52:19 AM PST by aruanan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-72 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson