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How Richard Clarke concocted the TWA 800 'exit strategy' ... and why
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Tuesday, April 6, 2004 | Jack Cashill

Posted on 04/05/2004 11:27:44 PM PDT by JohnHuang2

How Richard Clarke concocted the TWA 800 'exit strategy' ... and why


Posted: April 5, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Richard Clarke takes no credit for what is likely an act of criminal obstruction of justice

On July 17, 1996 – Liberation Day in Saddam's Iraq and two days before the Atlanta Olympics – TWA Flight 800 blew up in the sky off the south coast of Long Island. The reader need not endorse a particular theory as to the nature of that crash to appreciate the role that Richard Clarke played in devising the one theory that prevailed.

Clarke's so-called "exit strategy" was ingeniously conceived, ruthlessly executed and dishonest in its every detail. Whether Clarke was motivated by patriotism or political opportunism only he can tell, but his strategy did spare America an unwelcome war with Iran and assured Bill Clinton's re-election. Unfortunately, it also led the nation blindly to Sept. 11.

In his new book "Against All Enemies," Clarke offers the first published inside account of the demise of TWA Flight 800, much of it transparently false, but all of it entirely revealing. At that time, Clarke served as chairman of the Coordinating Security Group on terrorism. Within 30 minutes of the plane's crash, Clarke tells us, he had convened a meeting of the CSG in the White House Situation Room.

"The FAA," Clarke reports, "was at a total loss for an explanation. The flight path and the cockpit communications were normal. The aircraft had climbed to 17,000 feet, then there was no aircraft." In fact, the Federal Aviation Administration did have an explanation. Its radar operators in New York had seen on their screens an unknown object "merging" with TWA 800 in the seconds before the crash and rushed the radar data to Washington. Indeed, when Ron Schleede of the National Transportation Safety Board first saw the data, he exclaimed, "Holy Chr--t, this looks bad." He added later, "It showed this track that suggested something fast made the turn and took the airplane."

An NTSB document obtained by the authors reveals that the FAA had picked up the telephone and alerted the "White House" immediately. Clarke is the man at the White House to whom this message would have been relayed. The FAA radar almost certainly prompted this emergency CSG meeting. There was no comparable meeting after the ValuJet crash two months earlier.

Clarke also deceives the reader about the altitude of TWA 800. The last altitude the FAA actually recorded was about 13,800 feet. This is easily verified and beyond debate. There is a reason here for Clarke's dissembling. He needs to lift the aircraft – even if just in the retelling – above the reach of a shoulder-fired missile.

Within weeks of the crash, the FBI would interview more than 700 eyewitnesses – 270 of whom saw lights streaking upwards towards the plane. Although they were not allowed near the best witnesses, Defense Department analysts also debriefed some of these witnesses. These analysts told the FBI that 34 of those interviewed described events "consistent with the characteristics of the flight of [anti-aircraft] missiles." There were also scores of witness drawings, some so accurate and vivid they could chill the blood.

About four weeks after the crash, Clarke reportedly met with the late FBI terrorist expert, John O'Neill, who told Clarke that the eyewitness interviews "were pointing to a missile attack, a Stinger." For the record, no eyewitness ever mentioned a "Stinger." No credible independent theorist insisted on a Stinger, nor did the Defense Department. Clarke sets up the relatively small, shoulder-fired Stinger missile as a straw man to discredit all terrorist or missile-related theories. In his book, he takes credit for doing the same.

"[TWA 800] was at 15,000 feet," he reportedly told O'Neill – who died at the World Trade Center on Sept. 11 and can no longer correct the record. "No Stinger or any other missile like it can go that high." One would think that on so sensitive and contentious a point, Clarke would have made an effort to get the altitude of TWA 800 right or even consistently wrong. He does neither. The real altitude is not 15,000 feet or 17,000 feet, but 13,800 feet – an altitude at which the Stinger could be effective. In a book of this importance, such mistakes and omissions shock the knowing reader.

It should be noted too that no credible analyst – at least one not tasked with creating factually false propaganda – would limit the type of missile seen by so many excellent witnesses. All credible analysis would begin with short, medium and long-range anti-aircraft missiles. Existing evidence would be used to narrow the possibilities. Such simple, reasonable analysis was missing from the TWA 800 investigation.

Likewise missing from the investigation or from Clarke's book is any mention of satellite data. On Oct. 4, 2001, Defense Department satellites equipped with infrared sensors captured a Ukrainian missile striking a Russian airliner 30,000 feet above the Black Sea. Our government informed Russia within five minutes. In "Against All Enemies," no one even inquires about the possibility of such data.

In reading Clarke's book, one can see how thoroughly seduced he was by the Clintons and his proximity to power. He portrays himself as the ultimate insider, flying to JFK Airport with Clinton a week after the crash, briefing him on the new safety regulations that the president would be sharing with the victims' families. At this point, Clarke tells us that the president is still convinced that terrorists had destroyed the plane. This much is likely true.

About the performance of the Clintons among the victims' families, Clarke positively gushes. Here is the president "praying with them, hugging them, taking pictures with them." Here is "Mrs. Clinton" alone in a makeshift chapel, praying, "on her knees." Clarke, of course, makes no mention of how the administration would soon abandon his strict new safety guidelines for the sake of campaign cash, nor the role Clarke himself played in making that solicitation politically possible.

About four weeks after the crash, based on his own rough timeline, Clarke visited the site of the investigation on Long Island. There he casually stopped to talk to a technician. Their presumed conversation is so utterly disingenuous it needs to be repeated in full:

"So this is where the bomb exploded?" I asked. "Where on the plane was it?"

"The explosion was just forward of the middle, below the floor of the passenger compartment, below row 23. But it wasn't a bomb," he added. "See the pitting pattern and the tear. It was a slow, gaseous eruption, from inside."

"What's below row 23?" I asked, slowly sensing that this was not what I thought it was.

"The center line fuel tank. It was only half full, might have heated up on the runway and caused a gas cloud inside. Then if a spark, a short circuit ..." He indicated an explosion with his hands.

The technician goes on to tell Clarke that these "old 747s" have an "electrical pump inside the center line fuel tank" and lays the blame on the pump. In fact, almost everything about the conversation is wrong, including the technician calling the center wing tank a "center line fuel tank." The tank was not half full but virtually empty. The evening was a cool 71 degrees. The plane's pumps were all recovered and found blameless, and the fuel pump wiring is not even inside the tank. The NTSB admittedly never did find the alleged ignition source.

But pride goeth before the fall. In this one chance encounter, Clarke manages to sum up the essence of the exit strategy months, if not years, before the NTSB does, and he takes all credit for it. That same day, Clarke tells us he returned to Washington and shared his exploding-fuel-tank theory with Chief of Staff Leon Panetta and National Security Agency Director Tony Lake, even sketching the 747 design.

"Does the NTSB agree with you," Lake reportedly asked Clarke. Clarke's purported response speaks to the priority politics would take over truth in this investigation – "Not yet."

Clarke adds the telling comment, "We were all cautiously encouraged." They were "encouraged" because the political people did not want to face the consequences of terrorism. At this same time in the investigation, however, the FBI was ignoring the politics. Its agents were telling the New York Times that explosive residue had been found along the right wing of the plane right around row 23.

Moreover, the FBI's Washington lab had identified the residue as PETN, a component of either missiles or bombs. According to a Times article on Aug. 14 – four weeks after the crash – investigators "concluded that the center fuel tank caught fire as many as 24 seconds after the initial blast that split apart the plane, a finding that deals a serious blow to the already remote possibility that a mechanical accident caused the crash."

Something had to give, and it was the FBI. On Aug. 22, Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick summoned the FBI's Jim Kallstrom to Washington for a come to Jesus meeting. (Although Kallstrom dominated the investigation, Clarke never mentions him by name.) Kallstrom had been a good soldier the past five weeks. He had kept all talk of eyewitnesses and satellites and radar and missiles out of the news. But the evidence had inevitably led him to a terrorist scenario of some sort, and there was no easy way to turn back.

To be sure, no account of the meeting provides any more than routine detail, but behaviors begin to change immediately afterward, especially after the New York Times broke a headline story the next day, top right, above the fold – "Prime Evidence Found That Device Exploded in Cabin of Flight 800." This article stole the thunder from Clinton's election-driven approval of welfare reform in that same day's paper and threatened to undermine the peace and prosperity message of next week's Democratic convention.

From that day forward, the administration would spend all its energies making Clarke's exploding-fuel-tank theory stick. When, under coercion, the FBI changed its story, so did the New York Times – to which the FBI had been speaking almost exclusively. When the Times fell, so did the rest of the major media. They would soon enough brand all honest dissent "conspiracy theory." As to Kallstrom, he was never the same. "We need to stop the hypocrisy," he confessed to Dan Rather in a troubled, honest moment on Sept. 11, but he would not explain what that hypocrisy was.

With Kallstrom reluctantly on board, the administration could advance the fuel-tank theory by losing or corrupting the physical evidence. In our book, "First Strike: TWA Flight 800 and the Attack on America," we document in detail how this was done. No fewer than four serious professionals within the investigation made specific and unprecedented allegations of evidence theft or tampering: Linda Kunz and Terrel Stacey of TWA, Jim Speer of TWA and the Air Line Pilots Association, and Hank Hughes of the NTSB. Their allegations were taken seriously. Kunz and Speer were suspended from the investigation – Kunz permanently. Stacey was arrested. And Hughes was denounced by the FBI's Kallstrom for his participation in a "kangaroo court of malcontents," namely a U.S. Senate subcommittee hearing. Stacey's reporting partner, James Sanders, and his wife Elizabeth, a TWA trainer, were also arrested and convicted of conspiracy.

The one block of evidence that proved tamperproof, however, was the eyewitness testimony. Here, Clarke proved his ingenuity again.

Clarke, as has become apparent, has the habit of changing stories. In the book, it is he who persuades the FBI's John O'Neill that a Stinger could not have taken down TWA Flight 800. In an earlier New Yorker article, however, Clarke reports that it was O'Neill who insisted that TWA 800 was out of range of the Stinger. And it was O'Neill, who believed that the "ascending flare" must have been something else, like "the ignition of leaking fuel from the aircraft." Never mind that the center wing tank was empty at the time of the explosion.

In the New Yorker piece, Clarke gives the already deceased O'Neill credit for persuading the CIA to create an animation of the "ascending flare" theory. Students of this crash have long been troubled by how the CIA got involved and who bridged the deep territorial divide between the FBI and the CIA. That person had to be Richard Clarke. All evidence points to him. Only he had the respect of the agencies and the confidence of the Clintons. In the book, he blandly describes the CIA animation:

A simulation of the crash would later indicate that what witnesses saw as a streak of a missile going up towards the aircraft was actually a column of jet fuel from the initial explosion and rupture, falling and then catching fire.

Clarke's description of what the witnesses saw does not begin to square with what the witnesses actually did see. Here, for instance, is the FBI "302" for Mike Wire, a Philadelphia millwright taking a break on a Westhampton bridge:

Wire saw a white light that was traveling skyward from the ground at approximately a 40-degree angle. Wire described the white light as a light that sparkled and thought it was some type of fireworks. Wire stated that the white light "zig zagged" [sic] as it traveled upwards, and at the apex of its travel the white light "arched over" and disappeared from Wire's view ... Wire stated the white light traveled outwards from the beach in a south-southeasterly direction.

Later, the NTSB would allege that no witness observed the telltale zigzag of a missile as it attempted to acquire its target. But Mike Wire did indeed observe that key signature of an anti-aircraft missile at work, as did many others. And like them, Wire told the FBI that this streak culminated in a huge "fireball."

Unknown to Wire, the CIA chose to build its case squarely on his testimony. Among these Hamptons-area eyewitnesses, Wire was the rare working-class guy. He was not in a position to notice or protest. In the CIA video, the narrator claims that "FBI investigators determined precisely where the eyewitness was standing" while the video shows the explosion from Wire's perspective on Beach Lane Bridge. The narration continues, "The white light the eyewitness saw was very likely the aircraft very briefly ascending and arching over after it exploded rather than a missile attacking the aircraft."

The CIA animation converts Wire's "40-degree" climb to one of roughly 70 or 80 degrees. It reduces the smoke trail from three dimensions, south and east "outward from the beach," to a small, two dimensional blip far off shore. Worse, it fully ignores Wire's claim that the object ascended "skyward from the ground," and places his first sighting 20 degrees above the horizon, exactly where Flight 800 would have been.

Curiously, however, the CIA narrator repeats Wire's claim that the projectile "zigzagged." The CIA's studied indifference to facts helps answer the larger question of how the agency could recreate events at such obvious odds with Wire's original and detailed 302. Here is what CIA Analyst 1 finally reported to the NTSB in a 1999 interview:

[Wire] was an important eyewitness to us. And we asked the FBI to talk to him again, and they did. In his original description, he thought he had seen a firework and that perhaps that firework had originated on the beach behind the house. We went to that location and realized that if he was only seeing the airplane [TWA 800], that he would not see a light appear from behind the rooftop of that house.

The light would actually appear in the sky. It's high enough in the sky that that would have to happen. When he was reinterviewed, he said that is indeed what happened. The light did appear in the sky. Now, when the FBI told us that, we got even more comfortable with our theory.

This may be the single most egregious and conscious bit of dissembling in the entire investigation. Here's why: The FBI never contacted Mike Wire after July 1996. He has never changed his account, and there is no new 302 in his file. Someone made up this new interview out of whole cloth. That the CIA and FBI cooperated in its fabrication strongly suggests Clarke's involvement. To be sure, Clarke takes no credit for what is likely an act of criminal obstruction of justice.

As to the motive for devising an exit strategy, Clarke provides this as well. He tells us that while driving to the White House to convene the post-crash meeting, "I dreaded what I thought was about to happen. The Eisenhower option." After the bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia three weeks earlier, Clinton had told Clark and his colleagues that "he wanted a massive attack" against Iran. Had Iran been behind the downing of TWA Flight 800 – or Iraq for that matter or al-Qaida – the president would have had to respond. In fact, Clarke labels this chapter of his book, "The Almost War, 1996."

As the terrorism czar, Clarke was indeed in the loop. He knew an act of war had brought down TWA Flight 800. The question that had to be answered before retaliating, however, was who was responsible. Although Iran was the chief suspect, U.S. intelligence could not narrow the field to one believable culprit. This is critical, because a suspect had to be identified with sufficient specificity to convince the United Nations to sanction a war without whose approval Clinton would not move.

So the American public and the world could not be told the truth. The United States had suspects, but not enough compelling intelligence to name the nation or entity responsible. Such confessions equal bad politics – the kind that lose elections. The nation would demand retribution, which Clinton could not deliver. Clinton was the consummate politician. Declaring the loss of TWA Flight 800 to be the result of an exploding fuel tank was simply good politics.

At the Washington meeting of Aug. 22, it is likely that Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick, also a trusted Clinton insider, told the FBI's Jim Kallstrom something close to the truth, that a public revelation of terrorism would push America into a possibly inappropriate war. The fact that such a revelation would also have jeopardized Clinton's re-election might have influenced Gorelick and Clarke, but it would not have stopped Kallstrom. Up until this point, he had a serious career. One has to suspect that Gorleick was placed on the 9-11 Commission to keep the TWA 800 story under wraps.

Unfortunately, actions have consequences. In this case a brilliant political decision deprived the nation of an opportunity to focus on the problem of terrorism and prepare to foil the next attack on America – one that would surely come, this time, once again, to New York and through the air.




TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: johnoneill; richardclarke; twa800; twaflight800
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To: JohnHuang2
To-important-to-miss BUMP!!!
21 posted on 04/06/2004 8:39:03 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Agnes Heep
Interesting theory with the rivet punctures. First I've heard of that. Did he think the cowling just cane off or did it have some other cause? Also, I'm a little confused as how this fits the rest of the case - why would the government need to cover up a cowling failure by claiming a fuel tank explosion? And how does that fit with the fuel leak/missile trail or whatever it was?

I'm still hard pressed to discount the testimony of 100's of witnesses that they saw a missile.
22 posted on 04/06/2004 6:11:26 PM PDT by HangThemHigh (Entropy's not what it used to be.)
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To: HangThemHigh
Even Clark during his testimony before the 9/11 commission let it slip that TWA 800 was a terrorist hit. That's the first thing I thought the morning I heard the news. That's also the first thing I thought when OKC was hit. It's always just been a matter of time before we were hit. But the government has been very successful in covering it up. When planes started flying into buildings they couldn't cover it up any longer.

What I don't understand is why doesn't Bush just come out and say it. "TWA 800 was an act of terrorism!" Are they all so deep into the "system" that none of them can tell us the truth?
23 posted on 04/06/2004 6:36:27 PM PDT by Terry Mross
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To: Terry Mross
why doesn't Bush just come out and say it. "TWA 800 was an act of terrorism!" Are they all so deep into the "system" that none of them can tell us the truth?

The lie was Clinton's!

Why should Bush do it?

I suspect they will never let that one see the light of day in my lifetime.

24 posted on 04/06/2004 6:42:15 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Notice! Looking for a replacement lawyer with only one hand! (who can't say "on the other hand")
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To: Agnes Heep
Engine cowlings are smooth, the rivets and bolts are flush with the aluminum skin of the cowling. They wouldn't puncture the wing skin. If a cowling wasn't closed properly it would depart the aicraft, though it would go backwards not up into the lower surface of the wing. The bottom of the wing is thick in this area to prevent being compromised by a wheel/tire failure on landing or an uncontained engine failure. I don't for a minute believe the center tank exploded. I have spent many hours working inside aircraft fuel tanks. I don't believe any spark could ignite jet fuel at ambient pressure.
25 posted on 04/06/2004 7:07:30 PM PDT by 6AL-4V
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To: HangThemHigh
Interesting theory with the rivet punctures. First I've heard of that. Did he think the cowling just cane off or did it have some other cause? Also, I'm a little confused as how this fits the rest of the case - why would the government need to cover up a cowling failure by claiming a fuel tank explosion? And how does that fit with the fuel leak/missile trail or whatever it was?

I'm still hard pressed to discount the testimony of 100's of witnesses that they saw a missile.

For the sake of clarity, I spent some time doing a search to see if I could locate the original theory, and it's still there. As it so happens, I appear to have gotten the story wrong--it wasn't rivets, but a kind of retaining hook, on the cowling, that would have punctured the inner wing area under this scenario. Whatever the case, the principle is the same. You can see the cowling theory explained at this webpage.

I think there was only one eyewitness account where the individual claimed to have seen a missile approach the aircraft, and that account was so bizarre as to be unbelievable. The witnesses claimed they saw a streak of light, which many assumed, without warrant, to have been a missile. Objective witnesses gave testimony to the effect that they saw a streak of light coming up to meet the aircraft.

I'm really not convinced that the government or anyone else is trying to cover anything up here. There was obviously damage to the center fuel tank suggestive of an explosion in that area. The originator of this cowling theory wasn't, to the best of my knowledge, part of the investigation, so perhaps his particular insights simply weren't thought of by the people who did the actual investigation.

Whatever the case, we hardly need a conspiracy theory predicated on a massive government cover-up to explain such a mishap. Look, I know this was the Clinton administration, but really ... heck, look at all those hundreds of people Bill supposedly had murdered. I'll bet you 95 percent of them were strictly coincidental!

26 posted on 04/06/2004 10:56:20 PM PDT by Agnes Heep (Solus cum sola non cogitabuntur orare pater noster)
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To: 6AL-4V
See my post #26. Your observations caused me to go back and take another look at this interesting cowling theory. Turns out it wasn't the originator, but myself, who got things wrong!
27 posted on 04/06/2004 10:57:44 PM PDT by Agnes Heep (Solus cum sola non cogitabuntur orare pater noster)
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To: Terry Mross
I also, have wondered why Bush doesn't call the shoot down of TWA 800 terrorism. I don't understand why W has not exposed Bill Clinton on any of a number of subjects, but that one has really bothered me.

I'm not sure I believe it, but I can only conclude that it wasn't terrorists, but actually a Navy missile that brought the plane down. That would explain how the plane was hit at such an altitude and the continued coverup.
28 posted on 04/08/2004 7:45:43 PM PDT by HangThemHigh (Entropy's not what it used to be.)
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To: Agnes Heep
Thanks, now I see how your scenario works. I read a lot on the incident at the time, but I don't recall seeing that theory. It looks plausible to me, but it doesn't quite fit the evidence, in my opinion.

You say we hardly need a conspiracy theory to explain such a mishap. Don't get the idea that I'm a conspiracy nut, TWA 800 is the only case I can think of that I really suspect a coverup . My assumption on this has been that the government experts are not idiots and know what brought TWA 800 down. Apparently you do not share this assumption (and that's certainly understandable).

This has been long enough ago, I can no longer recall many of the points where I had problems with the government's case, but here are a few:

I'm no expert, but I think the zoom-climb video produced by the CIA was pure bunk.

I think it would be hard for anyone that has seen them both (even just in movies) to mistake a fuel fire for a missile trail. Did you happen to see the terrorists shooting a shoulder fired missile at the cargo airplane a few months ago in Iraq (or was it Afghanistan?). A missile trail is pretty distinctive. I would know the difference and some of the 150 or so eye witnesses saying they saw a missile (or object rising to meet the plane) were combat pilots with direct personal experience who would definitely know the difference. The government claimed these guys were kooks or whatever, but I can't discount them so easily.

James Sanders, the reporter that tried to steal a piece of seat fabric to have it lab tested was sentenced to jail for his acts. Why so harsh if there was no coverup?
29 posted on 04/08/2004 8:37:35 PM PDT by HangThemHigh (Entropy's not what it used to be.)
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To: HangThemHigh
I think it would be hard for anyone that has seen them both (even just in movies) to mistake a fuel fire for a missile trail. Did you happen to see the terrorists shooting a shoulder fired missile at the cargo airplane a few months ago in Iraq (or was it Afghanistan?). A missile trail is pretty distinctive. I would know the difference and some of the 150 or so eye witnesses saying they saw a missile (or object rising to meet the plane) were combat pilots with direct personal experience who would definitely know the difference. The government claimed these guys were kooks or whatever, but I can't discount them so easily.

The problem here is that the eyewitnesses could not have seen an object the size of any known missile at the height and distance of the 747. It would have been, in the words of one alt.disasters.aviation poster, like seeing a pin at the distance of a hundred yards. The word "object" is really only a semantic device to describe what they saw, which was, in just about every case (check the numerous eyewitness reports) comprised of orange, red, orange-red, or pink-red light. Some claimed to have seen a trail of smoke.

Another problem with this, as it relates to a missile is that, assuming the alleged missile to have been of the portable variety, it would not have had the ability to reach a ceiling of over 13,000 feet, the height of the 747 at the time. Even if it had, its engines would not have been burning at or near the point of impact; and even assuming the burn was continuing at the point, it would not have been visible to the extent reported by the witnesses, especially considering their distance (around ten miles) from the event. In fact, I don't believe these missiles even show a "burn" per se.

A larger missile, such as the Navy Standard (mentioned by numerous pro-conspiracy theorists) would have lit up the evening sky, making witnesses of virtually everyone who had been outside at the time; not just the few who happened to be looking up and eastward.

James Sanders, the reporter that tried to steal a piece of seat fabric to have it lab tested was sentenced to jail for his acts. Why so harsh if there was no coverup?

Perhaps because stealing items associated with the continuing investigation of a major accident is a serious crime. If memory serves, a number of people were arrested last year for taking pieces of debris from the space shuttle disaster. It's really no light or laughing matter.

30 posted on 04/09/2004 7:07:04 AM PDT by Agnes Heep (Solus cum sola non cogitabuntur orare pater noster)
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To: HangThemHigh
TWA800

What happened to the video? I remember seeing video from some people who were on a boat, that showed something going up to the plane...it was on the news. The person I saw it with said "We really should have taped that, you'll never see it again, because someone shot that plane down."
31 posted on 04/13/2004 12:22:11 PM PDT by NotQuiteCricket (10 kinds of people in the world us and them.)
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To: Agnes Heep
The problem here is that the eyewitnesses could not have seen an object the size of any known missile at the height and distance of the 747. It would have been, in the words of one alt.disasters.aviation poster, like seeing a pin at the distance of a hundred yards.

I know you can see a big enough missile firing from a LONG ways off. One of my favorite memories was watching Apollo 17 take off... from Miami Beach! I could clearly see the climbing red dot carrying the last men to the moon and I could clearly see the changing intensity of the 2nd (IIRC correctly and it wasn't the 1st) stage separation. My Dad has a long exposure photo showing the ascending red arc. Admittedly this was a MUCH bigger rocket under ideal viewing conditions, but it was also a LOT further off.

32 posted on 04/13/2004 7:22:37 PM PDT by JohnBovenmyer (I)
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To: JohnBovenmyer
I know you can see a big enough missile firing from a LONG ways off. One of my favorite memories was watching Apollo 17 take off... from Miami Beach! I could clearly see the climbing red dot carrying the last men to the moon and I could clearly see the changing intensity of the 2nd (IIRC correctly and it wasn't the 1st) stage separation. My Dad has a long exposure photo showing the ascending red arc. Admittedly this was a MUCH bigger rocket under ideal viewing conditions, but it was also a LOT further off.

True, and this is the crux of the problem with the Flight 800 conspiracy theories. A big rocket like a Saturn has lots of fuel and continues to burn long into its flight. It's not the same for a smaller missile, especially a portable. At the same time, the burn at ignition is quite a noticeable event, and would have been seen by the eyewitnesses at the shore long before the event that they described as streaks of light, or flares.

33 posted on 04/13/2004 8:04:25 PM PDT by Agnes Heep (Solus cum sola non cogitabuntur orare pater noster)
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To: Agnes Heep
The Chinese QW-1 has a spec altitude of 13,130 feet (4 KM) and range of 16,400 feet (5 KM). And the QW-1A has improved performance. Pakistan has a similar MANPAD, the MK-2.

The British Starstreak has a range of almost 23,000 feet. Congressional testimony has given 20,000 feet as the range of easily obtained MANPADs.

34 posted on 07/01/2007 5:10:29 AM PDT by GregoryFul (how'd that get there?)
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To: Agnes Heep
"Look at that crazy fuel flow indicator there on number four."

are you claiming that the fuel sensor for engine #4 is in the BODY of the 747 and not out near the #4 engine??

why didn't fuel sensors for engines one, two and three give similar readings?

is there any evidence that the WING or ENGINE #4 exploded?

i'm afraid your theory won't wash. i realize there is a very strong incentive to avoid cognitive dissonance, but when something stinks, it is rotten.

35 posted on 07/01/2007 6:48:32 AM PDT by chilepepper (The map is not the territory -- Alfred Korzybski)
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