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To: Former Fetus
"Ladies and gentlemen", he added, "scientific honesty compels me to say that this man was raised from the dead!" There was no clapping at the end of his presentation, you could have heard the proverbial pin fall on the floor.

Right...he's an "atheist" like the seminar callers on C-SPAN are "registered Republicans". There is no way that the scientific method could have led him to draw such a conclusion, though his faith certainly could have.

The Shroud is a proven fake - the kind of quackery that does harm to Christianity.

23 posted on 04/05/2004 7:44:23 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Mr. Jeeves
The Shroud may actually be fake, but it certainly is not a "proven fake." As someone else pointed out on this thread, the Shroud cannot possibly be "proven" to be a fake until someone can figure out how the image got there. Even those scientists who insist that it was a forgery are at a loss to explain how someone in the 12th century could possibly have created something that human beings cannot even create today.
28 posted on 04/05/2004 7:49:08 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE north strong and free.)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
The Shroud is a proven fake -

No, it has not been *proven* a fake. The efforts to demonstrate it is a fake have been exposed as being flawed so the "mystery" remains.

75 posted on 04/05/2004 8:58:44 AM PDT by cyncooper ("The 'War on Terror ' is not a figure of speech")
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To: Mr. Jeeves
The Shroud is a proven fake - the kind of quackery that does harm to Christianity. You go beyond your evidence, which allows you a reasonable doubt but not the certainty you assert. First someone has to be able to duplicate the result.
95 posted on 04/05/2004 9:24:21 AM PDT by RobbyS (JMJ)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
The Shroud is a proven fake

Obviously not proven, or there would no longer be any questions raised about it's authenticity.

I had heard right after the Carbon 14 testing that there were problems with the sample taken. There were folks on that study commission on both sides of the fence; some wanted to prove it was the burial cloth of Jesus, some wanted to prove it was a fake. The ones leaning to the fake side got their 'results' from the Carbon 14 testing, and don't want to possibly be proven wrong, but science CAN answer some of the questions remaining. Maybe further testing can't prove that the Shroud wrapped Jesus, but might prove that it COULD have.

171 posted on 04/05/2004 10:47:57 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Mr. Jeeves
"The Shroud is a proven fake - the kind of quackery that does harm to Christianity"

Boy, are you wrong. (IMO)

Before you state something so "definitive" you should really do some research. Start with the Gospel of John, where the Sudarium and the Shroud are both clearly mentioned. When you disprove those then we'll talk.

Explain to me how the Shroud which shows Jesus with "no broken bones, a pierced side, having worn a crown of thorns, having been crucified, who had His facial hair plucked from His face" and the Sudarium which also shows the same thing on the face could have done so if they were faked? How could they have the same blood type, or even lasted having been that old of cloths? How elaborate a plan was that? But more importantly, don't you find it a TAD ironic that the Shroud and Sudarium are identical to scripture and the Gospel of John? (See Isaiah and the words of Jesus)

Are you really so arrogant to think that God would not leave us a reminder of His only begotten Son's crucifixion? I say why not? After all Jesus performed miracles, do you think He didn't do those either?

Does it not still require faith from us? Jesus dying on the Cross allowed us all to have a ONE ON ONE relationship with God! He paid our Sin Debt! His death TORE down the Veil in the Temple allowing us all to have a NEW relationship with God. I think the Shroud and the Sudarium are a beautiful reminder of what Jesus went through for all of us.

That these cloths survived even 500 years would be a miracle. That they've survived since the crucifixion is a blessing from God!

I suggest you study this more.

If you would like some links to look at just let me know. We have out of town guests, but there are many. I'd be happy to point you to a few. (From CHRISTIANS no less!!).

361 posted on 04/06/2004 6:15:43 PM PDT by Vets_Husband_and_Wife (A $15 a month donation is a lot cheaper than our crappy liberal newspaper is each month!)
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To: Mr. Jeeves
If the Shroud is a "proven fake," can you please tell me how it was faked, and how that was proven? Just curious...
373 posted on 04/07/2004 10:55:33 AM PDT by presidio9 ("There are no mistakes -- only Happy Accidents." -Bob Ross)
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