Terri Schiavo Hospitalized With Apparent Puncture Wounds In Arm! Apparent Foul Play!

In 7:25 break, anchor reported "Terri Schiavo was rushed to a Pinellas County emergency room last night after nursing home staff noticed puncture wounds on her arm. The wounds appeared to be caused by a hypodermic needle! Toxicology tests were conducted but the results are not available yet!"

This could open a huge new round in this case. What did tests reveal? Who was last person in room? When was husband there? Was staffer trying the Angle of Death routine?

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 CIVIL DIVISION
CASE NO. 92-939CI-15
3

4 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, individually )
and as guardian of THERESA )
5 SCHIAVO, an incompetent, )
)
6 Plaintiff, )
)
7 vs. )
)
8 JOEL S. PRAWER, M.D. and )
G. STEPHEN IGEL, M.D., )
9 )
Defendants. )
10 ______________________________/

11

12
DEPOSITION OF: MICHAEL SCHIAVO
13
TAKEN: Pursuant to Notice by
14 Counsel for Defendant
G. Stephen Igel, M.D.
15
DATE AND TIME: July 27, 1992; 9:05 a.m.
16
PLACE: 5999 Central Avenue
17 Suite 103
St. Petersburg, Florida
18
BEFORE: TAMMY J. BERKLER, RPR, CM
19 Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
20

21

22

23 KLEIN, BURY & ASSOCIATES
4350 West Cypress Street
24 Suite 701
Tampa, Florida 33607
25 (813) 876-4722
___

1 APPEARANCES: GLENN M. WOODWORTH, ESQUIRE
-and-
2 HEATHER HARWELL, ESQUIRE
Law Office of Glenn M.
3 Woodworth
5999 Central Avenue
4 Suite 103
St. Petersburg, Florida 33711
5 Attorneys for Plaintiff

6 KENNETH C. DEACON, ESQUIRE
Harris, Barrett, Mann & Dew
7 150 Second Avenue North
Suite 1500
8 St. Petersburg, Florida 33731
Attorney for Defendant
9 G. Stephen Igel, M.D.

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p.3 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Thereupon,

2 MICHAEL SCHIAVO,

3 the deponent herein, being first duly sworn, was

4 examined and testified as follows:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
__________________

6 BY MR. DEACON:
_____________

7 Q Would you state your full name for me,

8 please, sir?

9 A Michael Richard Schiavo.

10 Q And what is your age, Mr. Schiavo?

11 A 29.

12 Q I think we lost your lawyer.

13 A He'll be back.

14 Q What is your address, Mike?

15 A One Boca Ciega Point Boulevard.

16 Q Is that an apartment or a home?

17 A Yeah, it's unit 313; it's 313.

18 Q 313. Does that apartment complex have a

19 name?

20 A No. It's just Boca Ciega Point Boulevard.

21 Q Okay. And what city is that?

22 A St. Pete.

23 Q Where's that located?

24 A In Seminole.

25 Q Okay.

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p.4 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Right on Duhme Road there.

2 MR. WOODWORTH: There won't be any more

3 interruptions, I promise.

4 MR. DEACON: I want to make that a matter of

5 record. There won't be any more interruptions.

6 MR. WOODWORTH: There won't be.

7 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Okay. How long have you

8 been there?

9 A Approximately one month.

10 Q Where did you live before that?

11 A On 5th Avenue North, 453 5th Avenue North.

12 Q 453.

13 A 5th Avenue.

14 Q 5th Avenue North. And how long were you

15 there?

16 A Two months.

17 Q Let me back up a little bit. This address

18 you have at One Boca Ciega Point Boulevard, who lives

19 there with you, if anyone?

20 A I moved in there with my parents.

21 Q Your parents?

22 A Uh-huh. They just moved to Florida.

23 Q What are your parents' names?

24 A Claire and Bill.

25 Q Is Claire with an e at the end?

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p.5 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Actually it's Clara, C-l-a-r-a.

2 Q R-a?

3 A Or something like that.

4 Q And Bill?

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q Schiavo?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q Do you pronounce your name Schiavo or --

9 A Schiavo.

10 Q Schiavo. Okay. And anyone else besides your

11 parents live there with you?

12 A No.

13 Q This address, 253 5th Avenue North, is that

14 an apartment also?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And that apartment number?

17 A 453. It was actually in a -- I lived with an

18 elderly man; he had a room.

19 Q And before that were did you live?

20 A 273 Hermosita Drive.

21 Q What?

22 A Hermosita.

23 Q H-e-r-m-a?

24 A M-o-s-i-t-a. H-e-r.

25 Q M-o-s. Okay.

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p.6 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A I-t-a

2 Q Where's that?

3 A St. Pete Beach.

4 Q How long were you there?

5 A A year.

6 Q Is that a house or a --

7 A It was a house.

8 Q Who lived there with you at that time?

9 A My in-laws.

10 Q Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?

11 A Yes.

12 Q And before that where did you live?

13 A 2630 East Vina Del Mar Boulevard.

14 Q Apartment or a home?

15 A It's a home.

16 Q And who lived there with you at that time?

17 A Schindlers.

18 Q How long were you there?

19 A I believe a year and a half.

20 Q Before that where did you live?

21 A 12001 4th Street North.

22 Q Apartment or a home?

23 A Apartment.

24 Q Is that where you lived with your wife?

25 A Yes.

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p.7 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q What was the apartment number?

2 A 2210.

3 Q And how long were you there?

4 A We were there approximately a year.

5 Q Where did you live before that?

6 A I forget the name of the place.

7 Q Was it in St. Pete?

8 A Yeah, it was right down the road from where

9 we lived right then. What's it called? I forget the

10 name of the place.

11 Q Okay. How long were you there?

12 A Approximately eight months.

13 Q How long have you lived in St. Petersburg or

14 in this area, Pinellas County?

15 A Approximately eight months.

16 Q And where did you live before that?

17 A We lived in Isla Del Sol -- oh, you mean

18 before Florida?

19 Q Yeah, before Florida.

20 A Pennsylvania. Philadelphia area.

21 Q Any particular town?

22 A Levittown.

23 Q L-e-v-i-t?

24 A T-t-o-w-n.

25 Q That's a suburb of Philadelphia?

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p.8 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Right.

2 Q How long were you in Levittown?

3 A 22 years.

4 Q When were you and Mrs. Schiavo married?

5 A 1981.

6 Q Do you remember the date?

7 A November 10th.

8 Q And where were you married?

9 A Give me a minute. What's the name of that

10 church? Q I don't need the name of the church;

11 the town will do.

12 A Oh, the town? South Hampton.

13 Q Pennsylvania?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q If you could say yes or no, I'd appreciate

16 it.

17 A Yes.

18 Q Because when they take uh-huh's and huh-uh's

19 down, they're difficult to distinguish for me. You

20 lived in Levittown most your life; is that correct?

21 A Correct. Yes.

22 Q Prior to coming to St. Pete?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Where did Mrs. Schiavo live, for the most

25 part?

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p.9 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Huntingdon Valley.

2 Q And that's also a suburb of Philadelphia?

3 A Right. Yes.

4 Q What was your age when you got married? I

5 can compute it from this, but --

6 A I was 21.

7 Q And how old was she?

8 A She was 20.

9 Q How long had you gone together?

10 A Two years.

11 Q I understand that you had no children; is

12 that correct?

13 A Right. Yes.

14 Q Are you presently employed?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Where do you work?

17 A Freedom Square Nursing Pavilion, nursing

18 home.

19 Q And what do you do there?

20 A I'm a nurse's assistant.

21 Q How long have you done that?

22 A I'm sorry?

23 Q How long have you been employed in that job?

24 A A month and a half.

25 Q Do you have any special training for that;

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p.10 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 did you go to any school or courses to do that?

2 A No, I didn't.

3 Q What do you do in that job?

4 A I work with the Alzheimer's patients.

5 Q What did you do before that?

6 A I was working restaurants.

7 Q Doing what?

8 A General manager.

9 Q Which restaurants?

10 A I worked at Agostino's Ristorante; I was

11 general manager.

12 Q At the one on Ulmerton?

13 A Yes.

14 Q You were general manager?

15 A Yes.

16 Q How long did you do that?

17 A Three years.

18 Q From when to when?

19 A 1970 --

20 Q 1980 you mean?

21 A 1980, yeah, '80 to --

22 Q No. No.

23 A No. Wait a minute.

24 Q It has to start with an '80. I'm not trying

25 to give you the last part of the year, but you didn't

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p.11 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 come here until '80 something.

2 A Let me figure this out. I think it was '84

3 to '88, like the beginning of '88.

4 Q Were you working there when your wife became

5 ill?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Okay. Let's assume she became ill on

8 February 25, 1990.

9 A Yeah.

10 Q According to my records.

11 A I'm not sure of the dates that I worked at

12 Agostino's.

13 Q Okay. And let's also assume you didn't come

14 to Florida until 1985.

15 A Right. I'm not sure of the dates.

16 Q Okay. But for three years, right?

17 A Right.

18 Q Okay. When did you stop working there?

19 A When my wife became ill.

20 Q Sometime in 1990?

21 A The end of 1990, yeah.

22 Q What did you do after you left Agostino's?

23 A Took care of my wife.

24 Q Did you work at all from the end of 1990

25 until you got this job at Freedom Square?

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p.12 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A No.

2 Q So you left there sometime the end of 1990

3 and then devoted your time to taking care of your wife?

4

5 A Yes.

6 Q And then you went back to work for the first

7 time about a month and a half ago at Freedom Square?

8 A Correct.

9 Q That would be sometime, say, the first part

10 of June?

11 A Right. Correct.

12 Q Of 1992?

13 A Right.

14 Q You've mentioned some places that you've

15 lived primar -- particularly with the Schindlers. Am I

16 correct in assuming that at times your wife was also

17 residing there, too?

18 A Right. Yes.

19 Q Let me see if I can back up a little bit and

20 find out just exactly where she was when, so I can get

21 some kind of a chronology on that, and I'm going to try

22 and help you if I can.

23 A Okay.

24 Q Okay. It's my understand that your wife

25 went into Humana Hospital on February 25, 1990.

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p.13 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Correct. Yes.

2 Q So she was there from 2/25, 1990 until -- I

3 understand she left on May 9, 1990; is that correct?

4 A Sounds correct.

5 Q Okay. And from Humana Hospital, she went to

6 Sable Palms Nursing Home?

7 A No, she didn't.

8 Q She went to Cottage Nursing Home?

9 A College Harbor Nursing Home.

10 Q College Harbor Nursing Home. And how long

11 was she there? I don't have that record for some

12 reason. I'm sorry, how long was she there?

13 A Approximately two months.

14 Q Okay. From May 9 to around sometime in July?

15 A That's approximately two months.

16 Q Okay. Then she went to Bayfront Medical

17 Center?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And she was in Bayfront for two months?

20 A Correct. Yes.

21 Q July, '90 to September, '90; is that correct?

22 A Sounds --

23 Q Where did she go after Bayfront, did she go

24 home for a while?

25 A She went home to 2630.

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p.14 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q 2630.

2 A Vina Del Mar.

3 Q East Vina Del Mar where you lived with her at

4 the apartment?

5 A At the house.

6 Q Okay. I'm sorry, at the house, right, where

7 you lived with the Schindlers?

8 A Correct.

9 Q Vina Del Mar, is that in St. Pete or is that

10 in St. Pete Beach?

11 A St. Pete Beach.

12 Q How long was she home with you and the

13 Schindlers?

14 A Approximately three months.

15 Q Is that when you left your job at Agostino's?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Okay. She was home about three months and

18 then where did she go?

19 A That's when we left for San Francisco.

20 Q Okay. You took her to California?

21 A Correct.

22 Q How long was she in California?

23 A Two months.

24 Q Where was it she was -- where was she in

25 California?

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p.15 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A San Jose.

2 Q And what was the name of the institution that

3 she was in?

4 A Meadowbrooke.

5 Q And what was the purpose of going to

6 California at that time?

7 A She had some surgery.

8 Q What type of surgery?

9 A She had an implant put into her head.

10 Q What type of implant?

11 A It's a stimulator.

12 Q What was the purpose of that?

13 A It -- the doctors thought it could help her

14 regain consciousness.

15 Q Did it do anything?

16 A No.

17 Q In other words, was she in any way changed by

18 any of the things -- by anything that they did for her

19 out in California?

20 A Nothing was changed.

21 Q Okay. After you returned from San Jose, did

22 she come back and live with you again?

23 A She came back to live with us again, yes.

24 Q That's at Vina Del Mar?

25 A Yes. Correct.

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p.16 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q And you were still living with the Schindlers

2 at that time?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Now, you mentioned the fact that while she

5 was home with you during those periods, you were taking

6 care of her; is that correct?

7 A Correct.

8 Q What kind of things were you doing for her?

9 A Her daily care, making sure she was turned,

10 skin care, feedings, catheters, mouth care, parental

11 care, medicines, suctioning.

12 Q Full-time attendance?

13 A No.

14 Q Pretty much full-time attendance?

15 A Yes. I was, yes.

16 Q Were you getting some assistance from her

17 parents also?

18 A Her mother and father, yes.

19 Q You mentioned feedings. Was she being fed

20 through a gastrostomy?

21 A Correct.

22 Q How long was she home on -- and that's after

23 you now returned from California?

24 A Approximately three weeks.

25 Q And then were did she go?

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p.17 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A To Mediplex Rehab.

2 Q In Bradenton?

3 A Right. Yes.

4 Q You can say right, you can say yeah, as long

5 as you don't say uh-huh and huh-uh. Okay? Thanks.

6 Why was she transferred to Mediplex at that time?

7 A For rehab.

8 Q Okay. And how long was she at Mediplex?

9 A Approximately six months.

10 Q And what did they do for her there? You

11 mentioned rehab, what kind of rehab are we talking

12 about?

13 A Physical therapy, occupational therapy, coma

14 stimulation.

15 MR. WOODWORTH: What kind of stimulation?

16 THE DEPONENT: Coma stim.

17 Q (By Mr. Deacon) During this time now,

18 we're -- you know, we've been to Humana and then you

19 went to College Harbor, then you went to California,

20 she was home for periods of time, she's now in

21 Mediplex; did her condition change at all from the time

22 that it was -- I mean, from what it was when she left

23 Humana in May of 1990?

24 A Very, very little.

25 Q Okay. Can you quantify that? In other

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p.18 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 words, what things was she different in with regard

2 to --

3 A Her eyes opened up.

4 Q Okay. After the six months at Mediplex,

5 where did she go?

6 A Sable Palms.

7 Q Okay. Why was she transferred from Mediplex

8 to Sable Palms?

9 A For care of her.

10 Q I mean, what could they do for her at Sable

11 Palms that they couldn't do for her at Mediplex, or

12 vice versa?

13 A Well, Mediplex, they just -- they go to the

14 point where they couldn't do anything else or help

15 Terry out anymore. Sable Palms is a nursing home.

16 Q That was mainly for custodial care?

17 A Sable Palms?

18 Q Yes.

19 A Yes.

20 MR. WOODWORTH: Well --

21 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Well, do they do anything

22 for her while she was there? In other words --

23 MR. WOODWORTH: Wait a minute. Let me just

24 object to the form of your last question, because

25 custodial care means lots of things to lots of

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p.19 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 people, including your other client Pru Care. I

2 mean, what you may consider custodial care, her

3 physicians may consider to be skilled nursing

4 care, so if you'd be specific in your question.

5 MR. DEACON: Okay. I understand that.

6 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Let me back up, and he's

7 correct in that objection, and that is it was my term

8 and not yours, even though you said yes. What did they

9 do for her at Sable Palms, what kind of services did

10 they perform for her?

11 A Skin care, feedings, medicines, doctors'

12 appointments, making sure she was on a schedule. They

13 do range of motion with her, they do a little speech

14 therapy with her, basically skilled nursing care.

15 Q Okay. Speech therapy. From the time she

16 entered Humana in February of 1990 until now, this time

17 she's at Sable Palms, let me see here, which looks like

18 sometime in the summer of '91, was she ever able to say

19 anything?

20 A No.

21 Q Well, was she ever -- did she ever utter any

22 sounds?

23 A She uttered sounds, yes.

24 Q What kind of sounds are we talking about?

25 A Moan, grunting.

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p.20 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q Other than that, anything?

2 A No.

3 Q How long was she in Sable Palms?

4 A Approximately eight to nine months now.

5 Q Is she there now?

6 A Right.

7 Q She's been in Sable Palms since she left

8 Mediplex?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Where is Sable Palms?

11 A It's on Alternate Keene Road in Largo.

12 Q Keene Road?

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q Since that time up to today, has her

15 condition in any way changed?

16 A No.

17 Q Let me ask you just exactly what does she do

18 during a day? In other words, what -- you know, what

19 happens to her during a normal day?

20 A As far as -- I don't understand your

21 question.

22 Q Well, she obviously goes to sleep.

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q That's right?

25 A Right.

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p.21 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q Okay. When she wakes up, what is done for

2 her and how does she respond, if at all?

3 A Okay. The -- the aids come in, they get her

4 up, they give her a shower every day, they dress her;

5 the restorative nurse will come around and do range of

6 motion with her; the nurses will come in and do her

7 treatments. They get her dressed and they place her in

8 a wheelchair, and the nurses will take her down in

9 front of the nurses' station, or the social worker will

10 come down and get her and take her to her office, and

11 she sits in her chair for the rest of the day until

12 about 1:00. They put her back in bed to give her her

13 medicines and they let her rest for an hour, and then

14 they get her back up until about 4:00, and she's back

15 in bed for her -- they start her feedings, clean her

16 up.

17 Q Okay. And then after that?

18 A They just maintain her by making sure she's

19 turned, put the TV on for her, and the nurses are in

20 and out talking to her and --

21 Q Okay. Let me back up a little bit with

22 regard to that. When they get her up, she opens her

23 eyes, obviously. In other words, her eyes are open; is

24 that correct?

25 A Right.

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p.22 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q Is she able to make any cognitive sounds; by

2 this I mean any sounds that would indicate that she

3 knows what she's doing?

4 A No.

5 Q Is she able to make any volitional movements

6 of any of her, you know, arms, legs; in other words,

7 can she move her arms and legs spontaneously?

8 A Not voluntarily, no.

9 Q Not voluntarily? Okay. They put her in the

10 wheelchair and then wheel her down to the nurses'

11 station where they can watch her?

12 A Uh-huh. Correct. Sorry.

13 Q And she continues to sit there until they

14 take her back for her nap?

15 A Her medications.

16 Q Okay. At 1:00?

17 A Correct.

18 Q What medications is she on?

19 A At the present, Tegretol.

20 Q What is that? I don't know that one.

21 A It's seizure medicines.

22 Q Like Dilantin, something like that?

23 A Correct. Humibid Sprinkle.

24 Q I'm sorry, one more time.

25 A Humibid.

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p.23 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 Q Humi --

2 A Humibid.

3 Q Okay. Go ahead. Humibid Sprinkle?

4 A Sprinkle.

5 Q What is that?

6 A That is a bronchodilator.

7 Q Okay.

8 A She gets a multi-vitamin.

9 Q Okay.

10 A And I believe, to my knowledge, the best of

11 my knowledge, that's -- you have to go into her

12 records. I forget what she's on.

13 Q I just kind of wanted to get an idea what

14 kind of -- you know, types of meds she's getting. Then

15 she's up and stays in the chair until four?

16 A Approximately 4:00.

17 Q And then they put her back for her feedings?

18 A Correct.

19 Q Is she still being fed through a G-tube?

20 A Correct.

21 Q Is she on a Foley?

22 A No.

23 Q For urine?

24 A No. She's incontinent.

25 Q She wears a pad?

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p.24 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A She wears a diaper.

2 Q You mentioned they put her in the bed and

3 then they turn the TV on; is that right?

4 A Uh-huh. Correct.

5 Q Thanks. And does she show any signs as far

6 as your observation is concerned of being able to watch

7 and understand what's on the TV?

8 A No.

9 Q Do you know why they do that?

10 A Just to create noise, stimulation.

11 Q Speaking of stimulation, obviously you have

12 seen them in the hospital and in the nursing homes --

13 in the hospitals and in the nursing homes attempt to

14 stimulate her with regard to, say, a pain stimulus or a

15 sound stimulus?

16 A They -- the only thing that I've

17 recognized -- or recalled them doing was the bottom of

18 her feet with a pin.

19 Q Did she seem to respond to that?

20 A Not at the time, no.

21 Q Okay.

22 A That was back in Humana.

23 Q Have you seen her respond at all to noise

24 stimulation; by that I mean sound of a voice or the

25 clap of a hand or something of that nature?

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p.25 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 A Yes.

2 Q How does she respond to noise?

3 A She'll jump.

4 Q Who is her main attending physician at the

5 present time?

6 A Dr. Patrick Mulroy.

7 Q And he attends her at Sable Palms?

8 A We go there.

9 Q He goes there?

10 A No, we go to him.

11 Q Oh, you go to him?

12 A Correct.

13 Q Okay.

14 MR. WOODWORTH: It's called the mountain,

15 slash,

16 Mohammed syndrome.

17 MR. DEACON: Okay. There are many physicians

18 who

19 do go to nursing homes.

20 MR. WOODWORTH: It seems to be a inherent

21 characteristic.

22 MR. DEACON: There was a note way back

23 here --

24 MR. WOODWORTH: That I wouldn't interrupt?

25 Sorry

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p.26 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 about that. I have a lapse now and then.

2 MR. DEACON: Well, you made it 35 minutes;

3 that's

4 pretty good for you.

5 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Dr. Mulroy is what type of

6 doctor, what's his specialty?

7 A Internist.

8 Q Okay. And where is he located?

9 A 1258 West Bay Drive.

10 Q Largo?

11 A Correct.

12 Q What is it that Dr. Mulroy does for your

13 wife, if anything?

14 A He checks her out, makes sure her heart and

15 lungs are okay, constantly does blood work on her. If

16 we have a problem, we take her to him, you know; she

17 has a constant sore on her toe that he's taking care

18 of, and basic maintenance, skilled maintenance for her.

19 Q Is that a pressure sore on her toe kind of

20 thing?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Who else, if anyone, is seeing her on a

23 regular basis, if anyone?

24 A Nobody, just Dr. Mulroy.

25 Q Okay. Have you noticed any improvement in

___

p.27 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 1

1 your wife at all?

2 A No.

3 MR. DEACON: Off the record.

4 (Whereupon an off the record discussion was

5 held)

6 Q (By Mr. Deacon) When your wife was at

7 Mediplex, who was she seeing there?

8 A As far as doctors?

9 Q Yeah. Who was her main physician at that

10 place?

11 A Dr. Carnahan.

12 Q Have you -- other than the fact that she

13 opened her eyes at the time she left Humana, have you

14 noticed any change in your wife's condition at all

15 between the time she left Humana and today, July 27,

16 1992?

17 A Very, very little.

18 Q And what very little -- very, very little

19 change have you noticed?

20 A She'll respond to noise, she'll respond to

21 pain, and that's it.

22 Q Has Dr. Mulroy or any other physician

23 indicated to you that there will be, within any medical

24 expectation, any substantial change in her condition in

25 the future?

___

p.28 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A Nobody has said anything to me.

2 Q Has anyone told you, Michael, there will not

3 be a change in her with any kind of reasonable

4 expectation?

5 A Dr. DeSousa; that was back in Humana.

6 Q Okay. What did he tell you?

7 A He said that as far as he can tell, Terry

8 will only open her eyes.

9 Q And did he mean by that, as far as you

10 understand, that that is as far as she's going to

11 progress?

12 A Right.

13 Q When you say she has her eyes open, does she

14 in any way respond -- can she respond, say if you asked

15 her a question, by blinking her eyes or anything of

16 that nature?

17 A No, she can't.

18 Q Other than the fact that, you know, she has,

19 of course, these, you know, neurological problems, how

20 is her health otherwise?

21 A Basically stable right now.

22 Q Does she have any physical problems that you

23 can see, other than neurological ones?

24 A She has the sore on the toe that's constant.

25 She had a toe removed.

___

p.29 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q Who did that?

2 A I forget the doctor's name.

3 Q When was that done?

4 A Approximately six months ago.

5 Q For the same reason, pressure sore?

6 A Yeah. Pressure sores.

7 Q Other than that, how's her health?

8 A Good. Basically stable right now.

9 Q Has she had periods of time when her health

10 has been other than stable during this time while

11 she's -- let's say while she's been at Sable Palms for

12 the last year?

13 A At Sable Palms?

14 Q Uh-huh.

15 A It's been pretty stable at Sable Palms.

16 Q How about Mediplex, any health problems

17 there?

18 A I don't believe so, no.

19 Q Okay. Has anyone indicated to you that

20 they're going to need to do any type of procedures as

21 far as surgical procedures? You mentioned the cerebral

22 implant that she had, and you also mentioned the

23 amputation due to decubitus ulcer, or whatever it was

24 on her toe. Has anyone indicated to you that she's

25 going to need any further medical treatment in the near

___

p.30 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 future?

2 A They've indicated it to me, but they didn't

3 say what.

4 Q And who was that that indicated that to you?

5 A Dr. Mulroy has indicated it to me, Dr.

6 Carnahan has indicated, Dr. Alcazaren.

7 Q That --

8 A He's a Mediplex guy.

9 Q Did they indicate the nature of this

10 procedure?

11 A She didn't indicate -- or they didn't

12 indicate.

13 Q When your wife is in the wheelchair, is she

14 able to hold herself erect or is she braced in the

15 chair?

16 A She's braced in the chair.

17 Q All right. Let me start from the beginning,

18 okay, and that is, when did you meet your wife?

19 A In 1979.

20 Q Where was that?

21 A At Bucks County Community College.

22 Q Were you a student there at the time?

23 A Correct.

24 Q And was she also?

25 A Correct.

___

p.31 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q When you met her in 1979, was she fairly

2 heavy?

3 A No.

4 Q She was not?

5 A No.

6 Q Okay. And how long did you date her during

7 that period of time?

8 A We dated about five months.

9 Q And then what?

10 A We were engaged for the rest of the time.

11 Q And I think you indicated to me earlier that

12 you were married in '81?

13 A Correct.

14 Q During this period of time, from '79 to '81,

15 was your wife heavy?

16 A No.

17 Q Now, maybe that's -- that's a very subjective

18 term; I apologize for it. I don't know how else to put

19 it. What was her weight during that period of time?

20 A Approximately 145 pounds.

21 Q I'm looking at some medical records -- do you

22 know who her doctor was up there in Pennsylvania?

23 A I never met that doctor, no.

24 Q Do you know --

25 A That was --

___

p.32 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q -- who any of her doctors were?

2 A No.

3 Q Did she ever mention any names of her

4 physicians, who her family doctor was?

5 A She did, but I never -- I don't remember the

6 names.

7 Q I've got some names, and see if any of these

8 names ring a bell with you, if you would. Dr. John

9 Ickler, I-c-k-l-e-r.

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay. He was her pediatrician?

12 A Correct.

13 Q Okay. Do you remember her mentioning him?

14 A Yes.

15 Q A doctor, and I don't have a first name, I

16 apologize, a Dr. either Winer or Winer, W-i-n-e-r.

17 A Yes. Yes.

18 MR. WOODWORTH: What kind of a doctor is he?

19 MR. DEACON: I think he's a GP; he's a family

20 doctor, from looking at his records. It looks as

21 though he took care of not only her, but also her

22 family. I'm sure her mother and dad will probably

23 be a

24 better help in that regard.

25 Q (By Mr. Deacon) How about a Dr. Werther.

___

p.33 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 W-e-r-t-h-e-r?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Okay. Can you think of any other doctors

4 that she saw that --

5 A Those three sound the most familiar.

6 Q Okay. Looking at a record that I have in

7 1979, when was it that you met your wife, month?

8 A I'm trying to remember. It would be

9 somewhere around September.

10 Q And you think she a weighed about 145 at that

11 point?

12 A Right.

13 Q Okay. I'm looking at a record for February,

14 1979 that indicates that she was 64 and a half inches

15 tall, which would be five foot four and a half, and she

16 weighed 186 pounds; you don't recall her at that

17 weight?

18 A No, I don't

19 Q All right. And I'm looking at another record

20 of March 7, 1981 that indicates her weight was 200; you

21 don't recall her ever getting that high?

22 A No.

23 Q When were you married again?

24 A Can we back up for a minute?

25 Q Yeah.

p.34 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A I was married in '84.

2 Q That's what I thought. I'm thinking of --

3 you know, these don't --

4 A I just looked at my ring.

5 Q That doesn't jive. Okay.

6 A It's '84.

7 Q Because in '81, she was 17.

8 A Yeah.

9 Q Okay.

10 A '84. Sorry.

11 Q Okay. I just wanted to --

12 A I'm not good with dates.

13 Q I noticed that initially, and I don't mean

14 this to be a pest either, so let me get that back. You

15 were married 11/10/84?

16 A '84.

17 Q Okay. So am I correct, then, assuming that

18 you didn't know her when she wore the -- I mean, when

19 she weighed 200, and like that?

20 A No. I didn't know her then, no.

21 Q Okay. And when you met your wife, it

22 wouldn't have been '79?

23 A Can't be '79, no.

24 Q Because in '79 she was 15. It would be fair

25 to assume she wasn't in community college when she was

___

p.35 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 15.

2 A I'm terrible with dates. Sorry.

3 Q All right. So you actually met her probably,

4 if I'm not mistaken, you were married in '84, '82.

5 A '82.

6 Q Okay. Thank you.

7 A You're welcome.

8 Q All right. And that makes sense with regard

9 to her weights, because as a matter of fact, in

10 December of '82, she weighed 143 pounds. That sounds

11 right.

12 A Okay.

13 Q Okay? There you go. All right.

14 A I'll be put in the doghouse for that one.

15 MR. WOODWORTH: Nobody will ever know.

16 MR. DEACON: No one will ever know except

17 anybody

18 who might want to read that document.

19 Q (By Mr. Deacon) All right. You met her,

20 then, sometime in the fall of '82?

21 A Right.

22 Q And you started dating and you dated for four

23 months -- or five months and you got engaged, and then

24 stayed engaged until '84, when you were married?

25 A Correct.

___

p.36 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q During the time that you were engaged -- or

2 actually going together from 1982 to '84, dating and

3 engaged, would it be fair to say that you saw her on a

4 fairly regular basis?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Did you ever note her to have any type of

7 eating dysfunction or eating disorder or any type of --

8 A No.

9 Q -- thing where she wouldn't eat regularly?

10 Did you take her to dinner?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did she ever -- did she eat normal foods?

13 A Yes, she did.

14 Q And as far as you saw her, she ate normally;

15 is that right?

16 A Correct.

17 Q And did her weight pretty much stay the same

18 during this period of time?

19 A As far as I can tell, yes.

20 Q Okay. In the 140 pound, 145 pound range; is

21 that right?

22 A Right.

23 Q Did she have any times where her weight

24 fluctuated; in other words, she would gain ten, 15, 20

25 pounds and then come back down?

___

p.37 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A When we were dating?

2 Q Yeah.

3 A Not that I could tell, and I really didn't

4 ask questions like that.

5 Q That's true. When you're engaged to a girl,

6 you don't say, you're getting a little porky or

7 something like that, that's right. But as far as you

8 could see from just your observation, she stayed about

9 the same?

10 A Correct.

11 MR. WOODWORTH: I want the record to reflect

12 that

13 I didn't say anything with that porky statement.

14 Okay?

15 MR. DEACON: Well, okay. But you just did

16 something there. Okay.

17 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Now, also during this period

18 of time, did she ever complain to you about any kind of

19 physical problems?

20 A No.

21 Q This is when you were dating.

22 A No.

23 MR. WOODSORTH: Off the record a minute.

24 (Whereupon an off the record discussion was

25 held)

___

p.38 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 (Whereupon a recess was taken)

2 MR. DEACON: I told your lawyer before you

3 came in that what I was referring to, I got these

4 notes in front of me, if you're kind of wondering,

5 was some records that I got from up north from Dr.

6 Ickler and also from Drs. Winer, W-i-n-e-r, and

7 Werther, W-e-r-t-h-e-r, just for my recollection

8 and refreshing my recollection as to what I had

9 read there.

10 Q (By Mr. Deacon) We had said -- mentioned the

11 fact that during that time, from 1982 to 1984, as far

12 as you personally were concerned, your wife's weight

13 stayed pretty much constant; is that correct?

14 A Basically, yes.

15 Q In addition to that fact, you didn't know,

16 nor did she complain, of any physical problems; is that

17 correct?

18 A Not to me.

19 Q All right. I note some complaints of

20 headaches in late 1982; do you recall those?

21 MR. WOODWORTH: Let me object to the form of

22 the

23 question.

24 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Did she ever complain to you

25 of headaches -- you're correct -- during that period of

___

p.39 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 time?

2 A Not to me, no.

3 Q All right. Did she ever complain to you of

4 complaints of dizziness, particularly when she would

5 get up quickly?

6 A Not that I can recall, no.

7 Q All right. I realize that you were just

8 dating during that period of time, but did she ever

9 complain to you, or make any statements to you that she

10 was having irregular menstrual periods?

11 A Not to me, no.

12 Q Did she ever mention to you that she was on a

13 diet?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Tell me about that, if you will. What did

16 she say to you?

17 A She said when she was younger, she went to

18 Nutri-System.

19 Q Okay.

20 A She was on a diet.

21 Q So she told you that she went through this

22 Nutri-System Program?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did she tell you how much weight she lost?

25 A No.

___

p.40 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q During the time that you were dating, from

2 '82 through '84, before you got married, was she on a

3 diet that you know about?

4 A No, she wasn't on a diet.

5 Q And this Nutri-System was before you met,

6 right?

7 A Correct.

8 Q But during the time you were engaged, she

9 wasn't on a diet?

10 A I'm sorry. Say that again.

11 Q During that time you were engaged, before you

12 were married, she was not on a diet as far as you know?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Did she have any unusual eating habits at all

15 during this period of time that you can recall?

16 A Not that I can recall, no.

17 Q Before I forget, did she have any real close

18 friends during that time that you were engaged, I mean

19 female friends?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Do you recall their names?

22 A Sue.

23 Q Okay. One was named Sue, right?

24 A Yeah.

25 Q There was a mention in the Humana record that
___

p.41 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 a friend of hers from up north came down to visit her.

2 A Sue.

3 Q That was Sue?

4 A I don't recall her --

5 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection to the form of the

6 question, by the way.

7 MR. DEACON: Okay. I'm --

8 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Do you recall a friend of

9 hers coming down from up north to visit her after her

10 attack?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And was that lady Sue?

13 A Sue.

14 Q Do you know what Sue's last name is?

15 A That's what I'm trying to remember. Cobb.

16 Q Sue Cobb. And is that her present name? I

17 mean, was that --

18 A I haven't heard from Sue.

19 Q Okay. And where does Sue Cobb live as far as

20 you know?

21 A I have no idea.

22 Q But she lives somewhere in Pennsylvania?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q And that's somewhere near where Terry used to

25 live in Huntingdon Valley?

___

p.42 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A I suppose so. I don't know. I haven't heard

2 from her.

3 Q Okay. But you -- do you recall Sue coming

4 down to visit?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Okay. I'm still in that period of time from

7 1982 to 1984 when you were engaged. Did she ever have

8 any complaints to you, she being your wife, that she

9 had problems digesting food?

10 A No.

11 Q Did she ever have any complaints to you of

12 any food intolerance, or types of food that she

13 couldn't eat or if she did eat would make her sick?

14 A When we came to Florida, yes.

15 Q Okay. And what types of food were those?

16 A Cot dairy products, lettuce.

17 Q That was just after you came here?

18 A Correct.

19 Q You don't recall her saying to you that she

20 had problems with dairy foods before she came here?

21 A No.

22 Q Or with salads giving her diarrhea?

23 A No.

24 Q But you do recall her indicating that dairy

25 products and lettuce, she was intolerant to those

___

p.43 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 foods, after you got here?

2 A Correct.

3 Q Did she eat those foods?

4 A After she was --

5 Q No, I mean after she got here and she said

6 that she didn't -- she had some intolerance to those

7 foods -- how did she put it to you?

8 A She ate some food and it didn't agree with

9 her; she went to the doctor, came back and the doctor

10 told her not to eat them.

11 Q You were married on November what, 11th?

12 A 10th.

13 Q 10th. '84?

14 A '84.

15 Q Let me ask you the same questions after you

16 got married as I did while you were engaged. Did you

17 notice any type of abnormal eating habits after you

18 were married and before you came to Florida?

19 A No.

20 Q When did you come to Florida?

21 A Dates again. 19 -- no.

22 Q Couldn't have been '70.

23 A I'm trying to think here.

24 Q Let me help you if I can. The last item I

25 have --

___

p.44 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A '87. '87 we came here.

2 Q '87. Okay.

3 A April, '87.

4 Q Okay. After you were married on November 10,

5 1984, up to the time you came to Florida in April of

6 '87, did you note any abnormal eating habits as far as

7 your wife was concerned?

8 A Not that I can recall, no.

9 Q Did you notice any -- I mean, did she seem to

10 eat balanced meals?

11 A As far as I can tell.

12 Q What kind of --

13 MR. WOODWORTH: Are we talking now the entire

14 marriage or just until we came to Florida?

15 Q (By Mr. Deacon) No. I'm restricting these

16 questions, and thank you, you know, for that, I'm

17 restricting these questions from November, '84 until

18 April, '87, which is about a two and a half year period

19 of time.

20 A Before I came to Florida?

21 Q Before you came to Florida.

22 A She ate normally.

23 Q Was she employed during that time?

24 A Yes, she was.

25 Q What did she do?

___

p.45 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A She worked for Prudential.

2 Q And from -- and for what period of time?

3 A She started five months before we got

4 married, so that would be '84.

5 Q And she worked there all during the time up

6 to the time you left?

7 A Right. She transferred.

8 Q Did she complain of any food intolerance at

9 that time, from the time you were married until the

10 time you came to Florida?

11 A Not that I can recall.

12 Q She was seeing a doctor now and then; was she

13 not?

14 A Which doctor?

15 Q Dr. Winer and Werther?

16 A As far as I can tell. I'm -- when we were

17 married?

18 Q Yes.

19 A No, she didn't see them when we were married.

20 Q Okay.

21 A We were only up there a year when we got

22 married.

23 Q Did her weight remain normal for those two

24 and a half years?

25 A Fluctuated up and down a little bit, not

___

p.46 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 much; basically the same.

2 Q Can you give me a weight range, if you're

3 able to?

4 A No, I can't

5 Q About the same as when you met her, which is

6 about 145 before?

7 A Fluctuated, like I said, up and down a little

8 bit.

9 Q Was she on any particular diets?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you note that your wife, during this

12 time, between November, 1984 and April of 1987, was

13 drinking any kind of large quantities of iced tea or

14 other liquids?

15 A She was -- used to drink a lot of Coke.

16 Q What do you mean by a lot?

17 A I can't give you an estimate, but it was a

18 good amount.

19 Q From just your observation, how many Cokes a

20 day?

21 A Five.

22 Q What about iced tea?

23 Q Not that I can recall, no.

24 MR. WOODWORTH: We're still talking '84 to

25 '87?

___

p.47 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 MR. DEACON: Same time, right. The same time

2 period.

3 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay.

4 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Was she on a diet at that

5 time?

6 A No.

7 Q During that time, did she complain of any

8 physical problems that you can recall, any illnesses,

9 headaches, upset stomachs?

10 A Not that I can recall.

11 Q Now, you mentioned your wife was working at

12 Prudential; what were her hours at Prudential?

13 A Back then it was, I think, eight to four.

14 Q Eight a.m. to four p.m., right?

15 A Yeah.

16 Q Okay. Were you working at that time?

17 A Yes.

18 Q And where were you working?

19 A At McDonald's.

20 Q And what were you doing there?

21 A Manager.

22 Q And your hours?

23 A Fluctuated from five in the morning to one,

24 or ten to six, or four to close.

25 Q So you had fluctuating hours?

___

p.48 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 A Yeah. Basically closing.

2 Q If you worked at closing, it would be four to

3 close; is that right?

4 A Right.

5 Q Okay. During this period of time, did you

6 notice your wife having any -- did you notice your wife

7 having any menstrual periods during this -- I mean,

8 any -- I'm sorry, any menstrual problems during this

9 time?

10 A Not that I can recall.

11 Q Did her periods seem to be regular?

12 A As far as I can tell.

13 Q Did she ever say anything to you, Mike, I'm

14 concerned about the fact that I'm not getting a period,

15 or my periods aren't coming regularly, during that

16 time?

17 A Before we moved here?

18 Q Yes, sir.

19 A No, not that I can recall.

20 Q Okay. Do you recall her seeing the doctor at

21 all for irregular periods during that time?

22 A No, I don't recall.

23 Q Was there a time when she thought she was

24 pregnant before you got here?

25 A I really don't recall.

___

p.49 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q Were her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler,

2 living in Pennsylvania during this time also, or did

3 they come to Florida beforehand?

4 A Could you rephrase that, please?

5 Q Okay. When did Mr. and Mrs. Schindler come

6 to Florida?

7 A Three months after we did.

8 Q Okay. So would it be fair to say that during

9 the time that you were there and you were married,

10 living in Pennsylvania, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler were

11 also living nearby?

12 A Correct.

13 Q They were living in Huntingdon Valley?

14 A Correct.

15 Q And you were living in Levittown?

16 A No. We moved to Huntingdon Valley.

17 Q So you were living in Huntingdon Valley also?

18 A Yeah.

19 Q Were you living with them?

20 A No.

21 Q You had your own place?

22 A Correct.

23 Q Was there anyone else living with you besides

24 you and your wife?

25 A No.

___

p.50 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 Q In your own place?

2 A Just us.

3 Q Okay. I think you indicated that you didn't

4 remember her at any time during the time you were in

5 Pennsylvania thinking that she was pregnant.

6 A Let me think back for a minute. As a matter

7 of -- yes. As a matter of fact, I remember her --

8 yeah.

9 Q Okay. Do you know why that was?

10 A Why we thought she was pregnant?

11 Q Yes.

12 A Because I guess she missed her period.

13 Q Was she, in fact, pregnant?

14 A No. No.

15 Q Let me back up just a little bit. During the

16 time from the time you became engaged until you left to

17 go to Florida, was your wife ever hospitalized to your

18 knowledge?

19 A No.

20 Q During this time, did you have any physical

21 problems at all?

22 A No.

23 Q Other than the doctors whose names I've

24 mentioned, Dr. Ickler, Dr. Winer or Winer and Dr.

25 Werther, do you recall the names of any other

___

p.51 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 physicians that she saw?

2 A No, I don't. I think they're the basic --

3 Q Was your --

4 MR. WOODWORTH: Wait a minute.

5 MR. DEACON: I'm not saying she did, I just

6 wondered if there was. I don't know of any.

7 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay.

8 MR. DEACON: I do not know of any other

9 doctors

10 that she saw. I'm not trying to sandbag you with

11 that

12 question.

13 MR. WOODWORTH: I know you wouldn't try to

14 sandbag me. I'm just confused because I thought

15 he testified that to his knowledge she didn't see

16 any doctors during the period of their marriage up

17 there, so that puts the form of your question

18 somewhat in doubt in my mind.

19 MR. DEACON: Okay. I take that back.

20 Q (By Mr. Deacon) My question was other than

21 those doctors, during the time, let's say, that you

22 were engaged and/or married, do you recall any other

23 physicians that she saw?

24 A No, I don't.

25 Q Was your wife taking any medication, first of

___

p.52 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 2

1 all during the time that you were engaged?

2 A No.

3 Q Was she taking any medication as far as you

4 know during the time that you were married, from

5 November of '84 until April of '87, before you came to

6 Florida?

7 A Not that I can recall.

8 Q Did she ever complain to you of being dizzy

9 or lightheaded at any time during the time that you

10 were married?

11 A Before we moved to Florida or after?

12 Q No. Before you moved to Florida.

13 A Not that I can recall.

14 MR. WOODWORTH: I feel like I'm in a

15 different

16 world. Didn't you already ask him that?

17 MR. DEACON: I'm not sure.

18 MR. WOODWORTH: Doesn't matter. Forge ahead.

19 MR. DEACON: Okay.

20 (By Mr. Deacon) Prior to your coming to

21 Florida, did your wife take any diuretics, either over

22 the counter or by prescription, that you knew about?

23 A No, she did not.

24 Q Let's go from the time you moved to Florida

25 forward, if we can. And I think you indicated you

___

p.53 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 moved here in April of --

2 A '87.

3 Q -- '87. And we already know that I'm not

4 going to hold you to dates.

5 A Yes.

6 Q Okay.

7 A Don't do that.

8 Q Okay. I won't do that. The first indication

9 that I have after you moved to Florida of your wife

10 seeing any physicians, was she saw Dr. Prawer,

11 P-r-a-w-e-r, a family physician, initially in -- let me

12 get the dates straight here -- October -- October 20,

13 1987. Did your wife, to your knowledge, see any other

14 physicians in Florida before seeing Dr. Prawer in

15 October of '87?

16 A No, she did not.

17 MR. WOODWORTH: Can we go off the record a

18 minute?

19 MR. DEACON: Yes, sir.

20 (Whereupon an off the record discussion was

21 held)

22 MR. DEACON: Let me go back on the record, if

23 I

24 can, with regard to that.

25 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Mr. Schiavo, your attorney's

___

p.54 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 pointed out to me that contained in Dr. Prawer's

2 records which I just pulled out of my satchel is a

3 record that says Humana Med First --

4 MR. WOODWORTH: Wait a minute. We don't know

5 if

6 that's a part of Dr. Prawer's records.

7 MR DEACON: No. No. I know that. I said

8 contained in Dr. Prawer's, that's where they were

9 in my

10 records and that's where they were -- I don't

11 know.

12 Q (By Mr. Deacon) But to make a long story

13 short, I have a record that is dated 9/26/86, that is

14 obviously a record generated in this county, in

15 Pinellas County, Florida, because it refers to a doctor

16 who is a Pinellas County doctor, a Dr. O-s-h-e-r, Dr.

17 Osher, who is an orthopedic surgeon in this town.

18 Could it be, sir, that when you mentioned you moved

19 here to Florida in April of '87 it was really April of

20 '86?

21 A No. It was April of '87.

22 Q Okay. Did she come down here before you any

23 period of time?

24 A Nope.

25 Q Let me ask you this question. Does the phone

___

p.55 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 number 381-2707 have any significance to you?

2 A None whatsoever.

3 MR. WOODWORTH: What is it, 381?

4 MR. DEACON: 381-2707.

5 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Do you know what your phone

6 number was at the first place you lived when you came

7 here?

8 A No, but it was an 866 number.

9 Q 866? Okay. I have another document from the

10 Prudential HMO, the big stamp on the side, which is

11 obviously just a receipt stamp from Woodworth and

12 Dugan, Chartered, that has the name Theresa Schiavo,

13 employment date -- either that or effective date, I

14 can't read it, 9/22/86, ID number 16360578901, a little

15 card with Prudential on it. Indicating -- and on the

16 top it says Pru Care HMO. And underneath t it has

17 the name Prawer, P-r-a-w-e-r, Joel, S., M.D., phone

18 number 813-867-2151.

19 MR. WOODWORTH: I think that's a membership

20 card

21 in the Pru Care system.

22 MR. DEACON: It certainly is, but it's dated

23 1986.

24 MR. WOODWORTH: Let's go off the record a

25 minute.

___

p.56 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 MR. DEACON: Yes, sir.

2 (Whereupon an off the record discussion was

3 held)

4 Q (By Mr. Deacon) But as far as you can

5 recall, it was April of '87 when you moved here?

6 A As far as I can recall.

7 Q Okay. After you moved here in 1980 --

8 whatever it was, '87, we'll say -- you mentioned the

9 fact that as far as you can recall, the first doctor

10 she saw was Dr. Prawer; is that correct?

11 A Correct.

12 Q And that was October 20, 1987; if you know?

13 A I don't know the date.

14 Q She was mentioning -- okay. Do you recall

15 her having a problem with a lump on her breast?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Do you recall her having a problem with warts

18 on her toe?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Was she having any other problem in the fall

21 of '87 that you can recall for which she would have

22 seen a doctor?

23 A No.

24 Q Up to this time when you first -- from the

25 time you first moved to Florida until the time she went

___

p.57 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 to see Dr. Prawer, did she make any complaints to you

2 of the fact that she was having any kind of irregular

3 periods or was missing periods?

4 A No, she did not.

5 Q Did her periods seem to be regular to you?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Were you at that time -- let me back up a

8 little bit further. Were you, from the time of your

9 marriage up until this time, the fall of '87,

10 practicing birth control?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. And what means were you using?

13 A Condoms.

14 MR. WOODWORTH: Was she ever on birth control

15 pills?

16 THE DEPONENT: No.

17 MR. DEACON: That was my next question.

18 Thank you

19 very much.

20 Q (By Mr. Deacon) I just want to, you know,

21 she was never on birth control pills during your

22 marriage?

23 A No, she was not.

24 MR. WOODWORTH: Was there any reason for

25 that?

___

p.58 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Did they make her feel bloated up or something?

2 THE DEPONENT: No. She just never took them.

3 MR. DEACON: Did you get that? Put that in

4 the

5 record. Thank you very much.

6 MR. DEACON: If you want to ask a question

7 during this, Glen, you know, because I know how

8 you are, notwithstanding promises made early on,

9 you go right ahead and ask the question, because

10 if it's something for clarification or whatever, I

11 have no problem with you doing that. I wouldn't

12 want you to sit there and blow up, you know, and

13 burst, so you go ahead and ask questions.

14 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Other than condoms, did you

15 use any other type of birth control?

16 A No.

17 Q I think you indicated that up to this time

18 you had no indication that your wife had any type of

19 irregularity as far as her periods were concerned?

20 A No indication at all.

21 Q When you came here initially, I understand

22 she transferred to Prudential, right?

23 A Correct.

24 Q And she was a field representative; I think

25 that was the term.

___

p.59 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 A Correct.

2 Q What were her working hours?

3 A Seven to 3:15, I think.

4 Q And were you employed?

5 A Yes.

6 Q What was the first job you got here?

7 A With Olga's Kitchen.

8 MR. WOODWORTH: Who's kitchen?

9 MR. DEACON: Olga's.

10 THE DEPONENT: Olga's.

11 MR. WOODWORTH: I wouldn't work for anybody

12 by the name of Olga. Don't put that on there.

13 MR. DEACON: You got that down? Ask him

14 about if the name Olga conjures up whips and

15 chains to him, or something like that. You can

16 delete that part.

17 MR. WOODWORTH: No. No. No.

18 MR. DEACON: No, leave that part in then.

19 Leave that part in then; that's fine with me.

20 THE DEPONENT: It was a job.

21 MR. WOODWORTH: We all know that you're a

22 whipper and a chainer, or a whippee and a chainer.

23 MR. DEACON: No, I was referring to you and

24 what I know about you.

25 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Olga's Kitchen, what did you

___

1 ERRATA SHEET
Instructions:
2 Please read the original transcript of your
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23 MICHAEL SCHIAVO

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p.60 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 do there?

2 A Assistant manager.

3 Q And where is that located?

4 A Clearwater Mall.

5 Q Clearwater Mall?

6 A Uh-huh. Right.

7 Q Is that the one that's on U.S. 19 and

8 Gulf-to-Bay?

9 A Correct. Correct.

10 Q And what were your working hours there?

11 A Basically 12 to ten.

12 Q 12 noon?

13 A To ten.

14 Q Ten p.m.?

15 A P.m..

16 Q How long were you there?

17 A Year and a half, approximately year and a

18 half.

19 Q And where did you go from there?

20 A I went to the Breckenridge Resort Hotel.

21 Q What did you do there?

22 A I was the dining room manager.

23 Q And what was your work time there; in other

24 words, what times of day did you work?

25 A 3:00 in the afternoon until one or 2:00 in

___

p.61 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 the morning.

2 Q What days of the week did you work both at

3 Olga's and at Breckenridge?

4 A Fluctuated.

5 Q In other words, you could --

6 A I mean, the schedule changed every week.

7 Q Okay. Fluctuating days?

8 A Right.

9 Q All during this time, am I correct in

10 assuming, up to the time of the incident involving your

11 wife on February 25, 1990, she continued to work at

12 Prudential; is that correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q And she worked pretty much these same hours

15 all during that time?

16 A Correct.

17 Q Okay. How long were you working at the

18 Breckenridge?

19 A Approximately a year and a half, two years.

20 Q Okay. And then where did you go from there?

21 A Dolphin Beach Resort.

22 Q Okay. Dolphin Beach?

23 A Uh-huh.

24 Q How long did you work there?

25 A That was maybe about three weeks.

___

p.62 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Okay. What did you do there?

2 A Food and beverage manager.

3 Q And your hours there?

4 A Basically all day, all night.

5 Q Okay. And then from there did you go -- from

6 there, where did you go?

7 A Then I went to the Columbia. I opened up The

8 Pier.

9 Q And how long did you work there?

10 A Two years approximately.

11 Q Okay. Let me tell you something right now.

12 Right now you are into the year 1992, by your own

13 calculations.

14 A Am I?

15 Q Yeah.

16 A Told you I was bad at dates.

17 Q And you haven't gone to Agostino's yet, where

18 you were working when your wife had her attack. Okay.

19 Because if you came here in April of '87, right, and

20 you worked a year and a half at Olga's and a year and a

21 half in Breckenridge back in 1990

22 A I said they were approximate dates.

23 Remember, I said I'm not good with dates.

24 Q I remember that. All right. We'll put

25 little question marks by -- the three weeks is probably

___

p.63 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 valid, right, at the --

2 A Yeah.

3 Q -- at the Dolphin?

4 A That was just a stop-over between --

5 Q All right. The Columbia you worked a couple

6 years, you think?

7 A Approximately.

8 Q Okay.

9 A I opened it up and I was there for a while.

10 Q What did you do?

11 A I was dining room manager.

12 Q And what were your hours there?

13 A Basically two in the afternoon until two in

14 the morning.

15 Q And where did you go after that?

16 A Agostino's.

17 Q Okay. And how long were you there before

18 your wife had her attack? Go ahead. I just want --

19 this is -- this is a test.

20 A Approximately two years.

21 Q Okay. I realize you're not very good at

22 dates and you missed your wedding date by, you know,

23 like five years, but other than that --

24 A Well, we all can't be perfect.

25 Q We all can't be good, I'm not either, you

___

p.64 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 know, so let me just say this, I realize these are

2 guesstimates on your part, and I'm not going to hold

3 you to any of these. Okay. What did you do at

4 Agostino's?

5 A General manager.

6 Q And your working hours there?

7 A From ten in the morning until ten, 11, 12 at

8 night.

9 Q All right. What were your days of week at

10 both Columbia and Agostino's?

11 A Days?

12 Q In other words, what days did you work?

13 A Agostino's it was Monday through Saturday.

14 Columbia, it was Monday through Saturday, practically.

15 It was a brand new restaurant; we worked every day.

16 Q Seven days, right?

17 A Yeah. Worked every day.

18 Q It would be, then, looking at just what

19 you've told me, correct to assume that because your

20 wife worked seven a.m. to 3:15 and you worked, looks

21 like either noon or two or three or ten 'til midnight,

22 or after that, you didn't see each other much other

23 than on Sundays?

24 A Correct.

25 Q Okay. During this time, the time from when

___

p.65 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 you came to Florida until your wife had her seizure or

2 attack on February 25, did your wife, to your

3 knowledge, have any type of an eating disorder or

4 dysfunction of any kind?

5 A To my knowledge, no.

6 Q Did she have any weight fluctuation -- I'm

7 talking between 4/87, which is your estimate of when

8 you got here, and March of '90, did she have any weight

9 fluctuation to any degree that you could see?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Okay. And what happened during that time?

12 A She lost weight. What do you mean what

13 happened during that time?

14 Q Well, she lost weight?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Okay. How much weight?

17 A Sometimes 20, 25 pounds.

18 Q Was her weight fluctuating back and forth?

19 A Yes.

20 Q In other words, she'd lose 20, 25 pounds and

21 she'd put some of it back on?

22 A That's a guesstimate, 20, 25 pounds.

23 Q Okay. Did she take it off and keep it off?

24 A She put it back on; it would fluctuate.

25 Q Did you ever ask her how she was doing that,

___

p.66 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 was she on some kind of a diet or Nutri-System or --

2 A No, I never -- never did.

3 Q So you don't know how that happened; is that

4 correct?

5 A I -- that's correct, sir.

6 Q Okay. Did she tell you, Mike, I'm on a diet?

7 A No, she did not.

8 Q Did you inquire of her how it was that she

9 was losing this weight?

10 A I think I briefly asked her one time, and she

11 said she was just watching what she was eating.

12 Q Was that right after you got here or was that

13 during the whole period of time that you were here up

14 to --

15 A Just after we got here.

16 Q Okay. Did she get it down to a certain

17 weight and seem to maintain it for a while?

18 A Sometimes I noticed that, yeah.

19 Q Okay. But all she told you was she was just

20 watching what she was eating?

21 A Correct.

22 Q And from your observation, she did not appear

23 to have any kind of a eating disorder of any kind?

24 A Not to my observation.

25 Q When you saw her on the weekend, in other

___

p.67 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 words on Sunday, when you -- were you able to spend the

2 day with her?

3 A Correct. Yes.

4 Q Would she eat normally?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Tell me what she would eat.

7 A In the morning she'd wake up, she'd make

8 herself a huge omelette, and usually we would stop and

9 have lunch somewhere, and then she would eat dinner.

10 Q Did she -- you mentioned that she had an

11 intolerance to milk products and lettuce. Did she --

12 what kind of foods would she eat?

13 A She'd have tune fish, she loved fish,

14 spaghetti, pastas.

15 Q And as far as you know, was she eating

16 normally during this period of time otherwise, I mean,

17 on the days that you weren't there to see her? In

18 other words, I realize, for the most part, you never

19 saw her Monday through Saturday.

20 A Right.

21 Q Did you have any indication either from her

22 friends or family or from her that she wasn't eating

23 normally?

24 A No.

25 Q And that's up to the time that she had this

___

p.68 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 attack in February?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you ever say anything to her like begging

4 her to eat normally; did you ever do that?

5 A Once in a while I would tell her to put a

6 little weight on, but, you know --

7 Q Did you ever have to remind her to eat a

8 balanced diet?

9 A No.

10 Q How about consumption of liquids during this

11 time, particularly at the time just near the time when

12 she had this attack in February, by that I mean was she

13 consuming large quantities of liquid?

14 A Iced tea.

15 Q Tell me about that. What did you observe?

16 A She would drink a lot of iced tea.

17 Q And the word a lot has a different meaning.

18 A I can't put it into size, but an awful lot.

19 Q Okay. Well, from your observation, because

20 you were with her on Sundays, how many glasses or how

21 many gallons or how many quarts or --

22 A I would say she was drinking at least close

23 to a gallon.

24 Q Did she have social friends, I mean friends

25 that she hung out with when you were working and, you

___

p.69 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 know, she did things with?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Who were her social friends?

4 A She had a girlfriend Jackie Adams.

5 Q Jackie Adams. Jackie also works at

6 Prudential; is that correct?

7 A Correct.

8 Q Who else?

9 A That was basically her closest friend.

10 Q Any other names that you can think of?

11 A She was friends with Terry Welch.

12 Q Terry Welch, W-e-l-c-h?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Do you know where Terry works?

15 A Prudential.

16 Q Okay. Any other friends that you can recall

17 the names?

18 A Acquaintance, but nothing real close.

19 Q I had the name Sue Schwartz.

20 A She was friends, but that was --

21 Q Not that close?

22 A Nothing, they didn't go out. She was much

23 older lady; she was the office manager.

24 Q Oh, okay.

25 Q Who else that you can think of?

___

p.70 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 A Girl named Mary Ann. Mary Ann --

2 Q You don't remember Mary Ann's last name?

3 A I'm trying to think of it. Mary Ann -- I

4 don't remember Mary Ann's last name. It will come to

5 me.

6 MR. WOODWORTH: Let's go off the record a

7 minute.

8 MR. DEACON: Sure. Go ahead.

9 (Whereupon an off the record discussion was

10 held)

11 (Whereupon a recess was taken)

12 MR. DEACON: I want the record to reflect

13 that Attorney Glenn Woodworth had to leave this

14 deposition and he's being replaced by Attorney

15 Heather Harwell, who will be here possibly to the

16 end. Okay.

17 Q (By Mr. Deacon) We were talking, I think,

18 about the time, now that you're here, between the time

19 you arrived, you think was April of 1987, until your

20 wife's attack in February of 1990. Now, I asked you

21 the names of some of her friends, and you mentioned

22 Jackie Adams, Terry Welch and a Mary Ann, you didn't

23 know about her last name. Can you think of anybody

24 else?

25 A Those come to mind the most.

___

p.71 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Were they all at Prudential?

2 A Correct.

3 Q Did you socialize with these people at all;

4 in other words, on the weekends when you'd be home --

5 A No.

6 Q -- or like that? Okay. What kind of things

7 did your wife do while you were working? I realize she

8 had that period of time from, say, 3:30 until evening

9 as far as activities, social activities, things like

10 that.

11 A Sometimes she'd go visit her mom and dad, she

12 would -- she was much into arts and crafts, she'd go

13 shopping, do the house work, laundry.

14 Q Did you ever have conversations with her

15 friends, particularly Jackie Adams, who was her close

16 friend?

17 A Conversations --

18 Q Just, you know, would she drop over on the

19 weekend or something like that, or you'd go out there

20 and see her?

21 A No.

22 Q Or something of that nature?

23 A No.

24 Q Okay. Did any of her friends at any time

25 ever advise you that they thought your wife had any

___

p.72 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 kind of a eating disorder or a problem with ingesting

2 food or drinking --

3 A Before the incident?

4 Q Before the incident?

5 A No.

6 Q Okay. I haven't gotten to the after the

7 incident yet; we're going to get to that. Did anyone

8 ever tell you that they felt that your wife had any

9 kind of an eating disorder?

10 A No, not that I can recall.

11 Q Other than the fact that you knew she drank a

12 lot of iced tea, were you aware that she had any kind

13 of eating disorder where she didn't eat food that much?

14 A I was not aware of it.

15 Q Did you ever talk to the Schindlers, her

16 parents, about any kind of a nutritional or eating

17 disorder?

18 A I didn't think I had to.

19 Q Well, I didn't ask that, I said did you ever.

20 A No, I didn't.

21 Q All right. Now, she was, during this period

22 of time, seeing Dr. Prawer; was she not?

23 A Correct.

24 Q What was the main reason why she was seeing

25 Dr. Prawer as far as you know? I've got his notes, so

___

p.73 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 I'm not holding you to that, but --

2 A You want every reason or just --

3 Q Yeah. Why was she going there?

4 A Well, she had the warts removed.

5 Q Okay.

6 A She had that lump on her breast.

7 Q Okay.

8 A And she was going to see him for lightheaded

9 and dizziness.

10 Q Lightheaded and dizziness, right?

11 A Uh-huh.

12 Q When did she start becoming lightheaded and

13 dizzy?

14 A Maybe about four or five months before the

15 incident.

16 Q How often was that?

17 A I can't give you a number. I mean, I have

18 noticed -- I noticed it maybe three, four times.

19 Q Tell me about the occasions when you noticed

20 it.

21 A One occasion, my brother and his wife were

22 down, we were at Disney World and she nearly fainted.

23 My brother had to carry her out of the building.

24 Q What -- tell me about that. Where were you;

25 in other words, what pavilion or --

___

p.74 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 A I don't remember what pavilion.

2 Q Okay. You were at Disney?

3 A Yes.

4 Q What time of year was it?

5 A It was like March, February, March.

6 Q Okay. Let me just say to you that again

7 doesn't compute because she passed out at the end of

8 February, and it was four or five months before that;

9 it would be sometime in the winter or fall --

10 A All right. I'm sorry, you're right. It was

11 four or five months before.

12 Q Okay. I'll stick with that one. Okay. What

13 had you been doing before then?

14 A Before we went to Disney World?

15 Q Before she started feeling lightheaded and

16 almost passed out?

17 A Just standing there and we were talking.

18 Q What time of day was it?

19 A I think it was around 11:00, ten, 11:00.

20 Q So it was morning?

21 A Yeah.

22 Q Okay. Late morning. And had you gotten

23 there that day or had you been there a while?

24 A No, we just went down there for the day, no.

25 Q Okay. What day of the week was it; do you

___

p.75 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 recall?

2 A I don't recall what day of the week it was.

3 Q And who was with you again?

4 A My brother and his wife and their son.

5 Q Had you noted whether or not your wife had

6 eaten anything that morning before this?

7 A We had breakfast.

8 Q Okay.

9 A I do believe we had breakfast.

10 Q Do you know what she ate?

11 A Huh-uh. No.

12 Q That's a no, right?

13 A Yes. No.

14 Q Okay. What's your brother and wife's name?

15 A Steve and Pam.

16 Q And where do they live?

17 A In Levittown, PA.

18 Q Okay. What other times do you recall -- I'm

19 sorry. Had she taken any medication or anything of

20 that -- that day?

21 A No.

22 Q All right. What other times do you recall

23 when she was lightheaded or dizzy?

24 A Oh, we were at a -- we met this elderly

25 couple that we knew and they invited us up to a pool

___

p.76 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 bar where they belonged.

2 Q Do you remember what their names are?

3 A Helen and John O'Neill. John has since

4 deceased.

5 Q Okay. And what did you do? You went to a

6 pool bar?

7 A Yeah.

8 Q And what happened?

9 A She just started getting lightheaded and

10 almost fainted.

11 Q Had she had anything alcoholic to drink?

12 A No. She was drinking iced tea.

13 Q I read somewhere that she had some sort of a

14 reaction when she drank rum.

15 A That was another night we were all out, yes.

16 Q Tell me about that.

17 A We were all -- they were -- it was my father,

18 mother-in-law, a couple of friends, they came up to see

19 me at the Breckenridge, and she had a coffee drink that

20 had rum in it, and she got hives all over her body.

21 Q She didn't get lightheaded, she just got

22 hives?

23 A No, she just got hives and she got real hot.

24 Q Did your wife drink alcoholic beverages much?

25 A No.

___

p.77 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Did she smoke?

2 A No.

3 Q Can you think of any other occasions when she

4 became lightheaded during -- we're talking now about

5 the period of time up to the time when she had her

6 seizure, her attack.

7 A I can't recall any with me.

8 Q All right. Now, you mentioned as far as you

9 knew on the time -- with the time she was at Disney,

10 she wasn't taking any medications; is that correct?

11 A Could you rephrase that again?

12 Q You mentioned that at the time she had this

13 problem where she almost fainted at Disney, she was not

14 taking any medications?

15 A She was on no medication at all.

16 Q Okay. During this period of time, from the

17 time she started seeing Dr. Prawer to the time she had

18 her attack, was she on any medication, was she taking

19 any medication at all that you're aware of?

20 A Dr. Prawer wise?

21 Q Anybody.

22 A Dr. Igel gave her medication.

23 Q Okay. Tell me what Dr. Igel did.

24 A When she wasn't getting her periods, he gave

25 her the Progesterone test or challenge.

___

p.78 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Okay.

2 A I don't believe Dr. Prawer -- well, he gave

3 her -- now, how far are we going back now?

4 Q From the time she started seeing Dr. Prawer,

5 which was on 10/28/87, up to the time --

6 A Okay. You'll have to refer to his records

7 because --

8 Q Okay. I've got his records in front of me.

9 A -- she was on -- when he removed her wart.

10 Q Okay.

11 A He gave her something for pain.

12 Q Okay. Now, first of all, Dr. Igel gave her

13 some Provera or Progesterone to --

14 A It's a challenge to bring on her period.

15 Q Right. I'm going to get back to that, but

16 let me -- let me check with -- first of all, I'm still

17 on medications. I have Dr. Prawer's records in front

18 of me, and let me refer, if I can. Are you aware of

19 anything that Dr. Prawer gave her other than the stuff

20 for her toe?

21 A I can't recall anything, but I'm not saying

22 he did.

23 Q I'm looking at his records, and we also took

24 his deposition. He gave her an inhaler. Do you recall

25 her taking that inhaler? It's called -- it's called

___

p.79 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Beconase, B-e-c-o-n-a-s-e.

2 A Yes. Yes. Yes.

3 Q All right. What problem was she having that

4 she wanted an inhaler?

5 A I believe it was sinus problems.

6 Q Okay. Did she suffer from sinus problems?

7 A Not -- it was very rare.

8 Q Okay. But rarely she did, right?

9 A Rarely she suffered from them.

10 Q Okay.

11 A If I recall right.

12 Q Okay. Also, it's mentioned here that he

13 prescribed Seldane, S-e-l-d-a-n-e. 60 milligrams by

14 mouth twice a day.

15 A Probably with the Beconase, yes, they usually

16 do that.

17 Q Do you recall her taking the Seldane?

18 A Yes, I do.

19 Q How often would she take it?

20 A Whenever Dr. Prawer prescribed it.

21 Q Did she take Seldane from your prescription,

22 too?

23 A No, she did not.

24 Q Did you take Seldane?

25 A I don't -- I don't recall if I got some from

___

p.80 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Dr. Prawer or not.

2 Q What other medications was she taking at all,

3 if you know?

4 A None. Just whatever Dr. Prawer gave her.

5 Q Was she taking any -- were there any other

6 medications in the house that she may have been taking?

7 A No.

8 Q Were you on any medication?

9 A When?

10 Q During this time, let's say, 30 days or so

11 before February 25.

12 A No. That I -- that I can recall.

13 Q Can you recall when the last time she took

14 the Seldane was before February, 1990?

15 A The last time?

16 Q Yes, sir.

17 A I don't even think we had Seldane in the

18 house.

19 Q Okay. So it was all gone by that time?

20 A Whenever he -- Dr. Prawer prescribed it and

21 the refills ran out.

22 Q What other medications were in the house?

23 I'm talking about -- what medications were in the house

24 on February 25, 1990; if you can recall?

25 A Valrelease.

___

p.81 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Okay. Whose medication was that?

2 A Mine.

3 Q And what was that for?

4 A Back pain.

5 Q That's a Valium derivative?

6 A Yeah. Yes.

7 Q What else do you recall?

8 A There was Progesterone that Dr. Igel gave

9 her.

10 Q Okay.

11 A And I think there was some left-over Tylenol

12 Three from when he gave her for her toe, or whatever

13 that was, pain medicine.

14 Q Percocet?

15 A Might have been it, yeah.

16 Q Anything else?

17 A Nope. Nothing. Vitamins.

18 Q Where did your wife have her medications

19 filled?

20 A At -- we had to use the Walgreen's.

21 Q Okay. I had asked if you -- do you have any

22 of those bottles left, any prescription bottles either

23 for the Progesterone or the Seldane, anything of that

24 nature?

25 A I have the Progesterone at home.

___

p.82 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 3

1 Q Okay. Was that filled at Walgreen's?

2 A I believe so.

3 Q Okay.

4 A It was a Walgreen's on --

5 Q You didn't bring any of the bottles with you?

6 A No, I did not.

7 MS. HARWELL: We can get them to you.

8 MR. DEACON: Okay. Would you do that?

9 Because

10 according to Walgreen's, they don't have any

11 record of

12 anything being filled there.

13 THE DEPONENT: It was a Walgreen's right by

14 Duhme

15 Road. We had to go all the way up there to get

16 them.

17 MR. DEACON: Okay. If you could do that, I'd

18 appreciate it. Okay.

19 MS. HARWELL: Sure.

20 Q (By Mr. Deacon) I had cut you off when you

21 were talking about things that your wife was seeing Dr.

22 Prawer for. Do you remember anything else other than

23 what you had already recounted, and that was the

24 lightheaded and dizziness, warts, the lump on the

25 breast.

___

p.83 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A And with the irregular periods around the

2 attack -- around a couple of months before the attack.

3 Q Tell me about that, what -- how was that

4 brought to your attention that she was having irregular

5 periods?

6 A She told me.

7 Q What did she tell you?

8 A Well, she missed a period and we thought she

9 was pregnant. She went to the doctor, and from there

10 it was downhill from there with the periods.

11 Q Okay. Do you remember how long that was

12 before her attack?

13 A Approximately four to five months before.

14 Q I have a note from Dr. Prawer's record, this

15 is just to refresh your recollection, if I can, that

16 your wife went to see him concerned that she might be

17 pregnant, that her last menstrual period was May 1 of

18 '89, does that sound about right?

19 A I don't recall that happening.

20 Q Were you trying to get pregnant -- was she

21 trying to get pregnant?

22 A We were -- we were -- like four or five

23 months we were going to start trying to have kids

24 Q Okay. Up to that time, as far as you know,

25 she had not had problems with irregular periods?

___

p.84 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A I'm sorry, say that again.

2 Q Up to that time, which would have been

3 sometime in May of '89, do you recall her having any

4 problems with menstrual periods?

5 A No.

6 Q She never mentioned to you the fact that she

7 was having any problems?

8 A No.

9 Q How was her health otherwise, other than the

10 fact that she had these dizzy spells?

11 A I'm not a doctor, but to me, she looked like

12 my wife.

13 Q Okay. She looked healthy?

14 A You could say so, yeah.

15 Q Okay. During this time, particularly I'm

16 concerned about, say, from the summer or late spring of

17 1989 to the time she had her attack in 1990, how was

18 her health? How did she appear other than these dizzy

19 spells?

20 A Sometimes she would look drawn, but other

21 than that, she -- I mean, like I said, I'm not a doctor

22 and she looked fine to me.

23 Q Tell me, what do you mean by sometimes she

24 looked drawn?

25 A Well, she lost the weight, some weight.

___

p.85 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Okay. According to my records, she saw Dr.

2 Prawer four times, and her weight varied from 119 --

3 I'm sorry, from 120 to a 123 and a half pounds, or

4 three and a half pounds. Was she having a fluctuation

5 in that period of time?

6 A From what month to what month?

7 Q I'm talking about from -- let me see, from

8 March -- I'm sorry, yeah, from February 27, 1989 until

9 February 2nd, 1990, she was weighed each time she went

10 to see him, and --

11 A So what was your question?

12 Q My question is did she have weight

13 fluctuations during that period of time, that year

14 before she had her attack?

15 A I don't recall, I mean, any drastic

16 fluctuations. I mean, I don't recall.

17 Q I'm talking about for the year prior to

18 her --

19 A I know.

20 Q -- to her attack.

21 A I don't -- to me she looked like my wife.

22 Q Okay. Did she seem to you, for that year

23 period of time from February of '89 to February of '90,

24 to have a fairly constant weight?

25 A Like I said, I don't recall.

___

p.86 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q When you say she looked drawn sometimes, what

2 do you mean by that? I don't know what that expression

3 means.

4 A Her face, she would lose weight in her face.

5 Q What kind of activities did she do? In other

6 words, you mentioned some of the things she liked to

7 do; was she into athletics at all?

8 A No. No.

9 Q Did she exercise?

10 A No.

11 Q Did she go to spa at all?

12 A No.

13 Q You mentioned she -- that you were trying to

14 get pregnant, right?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q So you had stopped using birth control?

17 A Right.

18 Q And there was a time when she missed a period

19 and she felt she might be pregnant; is that right?

20 A Right. Right before the incident, a couple

21 months before.

22 Q Okay. When you say she looked drawn and had

23 lost some weight, did you ever have any conversations

24 with Dr. Prawer, who was her family doctor?

25 A Not that I can recall, no.

___

p.87 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Now, you were seeing him, too; were you not?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Did you ever mention to Dr. Prawer that you

4 felt that your wife looked drawn?

5 A I might have. I don't recall.

6 Q Okay. Did you ever have any conversations

7 with the Schindlers? Did they visit with their

8 daughter quite a bit while you were at work? You

9 mentioned the fact that she'd go see them and talk to

10 them.

11 A She would visit, you know, not every day, but

12 she would visit two or three times a week when I was at

13 work.

14 Q Did they ever have any conversations with

15 you, Mike, we're concerned about Terry because she

16 looks drawn or she's not eating, or drinking too much

17 iced tea, or whatever?

18 A No.

19 Q They never said anything to you?

20 A We all thought she looked like Terry. We all

21 thought that was Terry.

22 Q Okay. You all thought she looked good?

23 A To us she looked like Terry.

24 Q Did you ever have any conversations at all at

25 any time during this time up to the time of the attack

___

p.88 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 with Dr. Igel?

2 A No.

3 Q You never spoke with -- did you ever speak

4 with Dr. Igel?

5 A No.

6 Q Did -- talking about the Schindlers, did they

7 ever say anything to you about the fact that she had

8 any kind of eating disorder when she was young, before

9 you met her?

10 A Never mentioned it to me, no.

11 Q I think you mentioned you never spoke to Dr.

12 Igel at all, right, at any time?

13 A I don't recall speaking to Dr. Igel.

14 Q Did you -- was your wife seeing any other

15 doctors from the time that you got to Florida to the

16 time that she had her attack other than Dr. Igel or Dr.

17 Prawer?

18 A No.

19 Q Was she continuing to drink large quantities

20 of iced tea all during this time as far as you can see?

21 A As far as I can recall, yes.

22 Q How would she drink it, would she make a

23 bunch of it up and drink it, or would she have it in

24 the cans or what?

25 A In cans. She would make it by the glass.

___

p.89 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Did you ever say to her, you ought to, you

2 know, cut that out or, you know, that might be bad for

3 her?

4 A Not that I recall.

5 Q All right. Now, you mentioned the fact that

6 she went to see Dr. Igel because -- well, why did she

7 go see Dr. Igel as far as you know?

8 A As far as I know, Dr. Prawer referred her.

9 Q And why was it, as far as you know, that Dr.

10 Prawer referred her to Dr. Igel?

11 A Because she missed a period.

12 Q And did she tell you anything that she and

13 Dr. Igel may have talked about with regard to that?

14 A Say that one again.

15 Q Did she have any conversations with you as to

16 what she and Dr. Igel may have talked about regarding

17 her missing periods?

18 A As far as her telling me, they were -- she

19 wasn't pregnant. He kept telling her she wasn't

20 pregnant.

21 Q Okay. Do you know what it was he did for

22 her, if anything?

23 A No, I don't.

24 Q Well, you know that he gave her a

25 prescription for Progesterone.

___

p.90 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A I'm sorry, he did -- he gave her the

2 Progesterone challenge.

3 Q Okay. Did she say what that was for, why he

4 was giving her Progesterone challenge?

5 A To help bring her period on.

6 Q And what did that do?

7 A It did nothing.

8 Q Did she have a period?

9 A She -- she wouldn't have a period, but she

10 had a few drops and that was it; very minute.

11 Q If, in fact, she had a -- a bleed of one and

12 a half days, would that be about right?

13 A She had a what?

14 Q A bleed -- a menstrual period of one and a

15 half days.

16 A I don't recall that.

17 Q Okay. Let me go to just before the last time

18 she saw Dr. Igel, according to my information, was on

19 February the 2nd, 1990; do you recall that?

20 A Sounds familiar.

21 Q And do you recall what he did for her at that

22 time? This is -- this was the month of her attack.

23 A I think he gave -- she had a infection and he

24 gave her some medicine for it.

25 Q Okay. He gave her some medicine for a

___

p.91 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 vaginal infection?

2 A Yes, but he didn't know what kind of

3 infection it was, he just gave her the medicine.

4 Q Did he also give her anything for missed

5 periods?

6 A And I do believe that's when he gave her a

7 full prescription for Progesterone, take for the whole

8 month, because of not getting her period.

9 Q Okay. Let me first refer to the vaginal

10 infection. What did the medication that he gave for

11 the vaginal infection do, if anything?

12 A It burnt her inside. She had a reaction to

13 it.

14 Q Okay. Do you know what that cream was?

15 A Triple Sulfur.

16 Q Triple Sulfa?

17 A Yeah, that's the way --

18 Q Same thing. And she had a reaction to that?

19 A Yes.

20 Q What level, what type or what happened?

21 A She was severely inflamed.

22 Q And what did she do with regard to that?

23 A She -- when it started reacting, she called

24 the doctor. The nurse told her the doctor's not in and

25 there's nothing they can do, try to wash it out.
___

p.92 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Okay. Did she remain inflamed after that?

2 A Yes, and I -- she did, and I believe she

3 called the doctor's office again. I mean, I don't

4 recall if she did, but she called the dock -- I think

5 she did and they told her to use a douche.

6 Q Okay.

7 A Her nurse, the nurse.

8 Q Okay. Did the infection resolve before she

9 had her attack?

10 A No.

11 Q She was still infected?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Still -- did she still have a re -- was she

14 still having a reaction to the cream at that time?

15 A Yes. She wasn't using the cream.

16 Q I understand she quit using it.

17 A Yeah, but the reaction was still there.

18 Q Was she taking any other medications at that

19 time?

20 A No.

21 Q None at all?

22 A None at all. Just the Progesterone that he

23 prescribed, but she didn't even get a chance to take

24 that.

25 Q How about that, the Progesterone; she didn't
___

p.93 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 take it?

2 A No, because she had the attack.

3 Q He prescribed it when?

4 A I don't know.

5 Q I got he prescribed it on February 2nd.

6 A Okay. And she probably wasn't supposed to

7 take it until after -- towards the end of the month, if

8 I recall right; that's the way she was supposed to take

9 it.

10 Q Did she have a period between the time that

11 she saw him and the time she had the attack?

12 A No, she did not.

13 MR. DEACON: I have got a consult note, and

14 I, for the life of me, don't know who wrote it

15 yet. It has a statement in it LMP, two weeks ago

16 with pills. I'll show it to you, Heather, right

17 there. And it's dated 2/25.

18 MS. HARWELL: That looks like a nurses thing.

19 MR. DEACON: Well, I thought it was, too.

20 Off the record. Well, you can stay on the record.

21 I thought this was a nurses note at first until it

22 basically tells -- you know, talks about

23 consulting with other doctors. But so I -- I

24 don't have an author for this yet.

25 THE DEPONENT: When was it dated?
___

p.94 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 MR. DEACON: 2/25 at the top.

2 THE DEPONENT: That was the date of the

3 accident.

4 MR. DEACON: Yes, I know.

5 MS. HARWELL: If you let me copy that, I'll

6 try and track down the writing; maybe I can

7 compare it.

8 MR. DEACON: Sure. You can have that, go

9 right ahead. I'll tell you what, let me keep

10 this, I want to ask a couple of questions, and

11 then when we get done, we'll go ahead and get it

12 copied.

13 MS. HARWELL: Okay.

14 MR. DEACON: It should be part of the medical

15 records, so you should probably have that.

16 Q (By Mr. Deacon) Do you recall her having a

17 menstrual period two weeks before?

18 A No, she did not.

19 Q Okay. So do you know where that information

20 would come from?

21 A No, I don't.

22 Q Let me just ask you this question and then

23 we'll get back to some things. When you went to the

24 hospital with her, did other members of the family go

25 there, too?
___

p.95 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A Yes.

2 Q Her mother?

3 A Her mother, father, her brother.

4 Q Okay. Did you talk to the doctors?

5 A Uh-huh.

6 Q Do you remember what doctors you talked to?

7 A Dr. Shah.

8 Q Okay. And any other doctors you recall

9 talking to?

10 A The -- you mean right after it happened?

11 Q Yeah.

12 A The emergency room doctor, but he just came

13 out and told us she was moving.

14 Q There's some other doctors mentioned also

15 that were in some consultations that this -- ask if you

16 remember talking to any of them. Dr. Ravindra,

17 R-a-v-i-n-d-r-a; do you remember her?

18 A No, I don't remember her.

19 Q Dr. Hakki, H-a-k-k-i; do you remember him?

20 A Huh-uh.

21 Q Dr. DeSousa, D-e-S-o-u-s-a.

22 A Uh-huh.

23 Q You did talk to him?

24 A He was the neurologist.

25 Q Okay. You did talk to him?
___

p.96 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A Oh, yeah.

2 Q Dr. Suskanong, S-u-s-k-a-n-o-n-g.

3 A Sounds familiar.

4 Q Infectious disease specialist?

5 A Yes. Little lady, yes.

6 Q Yes, little lady. Dr. Pascual?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Dr. Gaines, neurosurgeon?

9 A Sounds familiar, yeah. No, I didn't talk to

10 him, no; he came in late one night.

11 Q Okay. Dr. Jain, J-a-i-n?

12 A Dr. Jain.

13 Q Is that how you pronounce her name?

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q Gynecologist.

16 A Uh-huh.

17 Q And Dr. Jacob.

18 A Dr. Jacob, what's he do?

19 Q I don't remember him, to be honest with you.

20 However -- all right.

21 A Yes, I do, Dr. Jacob, yes.

22 Q Okay. We were talking about things that Dr.

23 Igel had done for your wife prior to her attack. Other

24 than giving her the Progesterone and the cream for the

25 vaginal infection, what do you recall, if anything?
___

p.97 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A I'm sorry?

2 Q What do you recall Dr. Igel doing for your

3 wife other than the Progesterone and the vaginal cream?

4 A He did nothing for her.

5 Q Okay. Nothing more than that?

6 A Nothing more than that, as far as my

7 knowledge.

8 Q To your knowledge. Okay. And I think you

9 mentioned the fact that other than the vaginal cream

10 she was not taking any other medications that you know

11 about?

12 A Nothing.

13 Q Did your wife wear tampons?

14 A No, she did the pad.

15 Q Okay. did you talk to Dr. Prawer at any time

16 before your wife had her attack, about your wife, not

17 about your problems.

18 A No, I don't recall talking to him.

19 Q What were you seeing Dr. Prawer for?

20 A I hurt my back one time, and my stomach

21 problem.

22 Q What was your stomach problem?

23 A I had -- what do they call it, IBS, it's

24 irritable bowel.

25 Q Were you seeing any other doctors beside Dr.
___

p.98 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Prawer?

2 A His associate, I seen Dr. Mitchell.

3 Q In the same office?

4 A No. Different offices.

5 Q Oh, okay. In other words, Dr. Prawer has

6 partners --

7 A Dr. Prawer has a separate office along with

8 his other office.

9 Q Right. Who else did you see beside Dr.

10 Mitchell?

11 A Nobody. I don't recall anybody else.

12 Q Okay. Let me go to the day of the attack,

13 and I understand that was 2/25/90; is that correct?

14 A Correct.

15 Q What had you done the night before?

16 A I was at work.

17 Q And I understand that 2/25/90 was a Sunday;

18 is that right?

19 A Right. Correct. Right.

20 Q And what do you recall about that morning?

21 A Of the incident?

22 Q Yes, I'm sorry. What time had you gotten in?

23 A I didn't get in until like 12:30, something

24 like that, 1:00. We had late parties that day at the

25 restaurant.

___

p.99 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Was your wife awake when you got in?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you talk to her at all before you went to

4 bed?

5 A She said good night to me.

6 Q Okay. In other words, you went -- you

7 crawled in bed and she said good night?

8 A Yep.

9 Q What's the next thing you recall after that?

10 A Next thing I recall is I'm getting out of bed

11 for some reason, and I heard her fall and hit the

12 floor.

13 Q You were getting out of bed?

14 A For some reason.

15 Q How far is the bed from the place where she

16 fell?

17 A About seven feet.

18 Q What kind of floor are we talking about,

19 carpeted or --

20 A Carpeted, yes.

21 Q Okay. And where was it that she fell?

22 A In the hallway outside the bathroom door.

23 Q Were her feet still in the bathroom?

24 A I don't recall if they were or not; I don't

25 think so.

___

p.100 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Could you tell whether or not from where she

2 was positioned if she had -- was coming from the

3 bathroom?

4 A I couldn't tell.

5 Q Was the bathroom light on?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is it normally kept on overnight?

8 A No, it's not.

9 Q Would it then be fair to assume that she had

10 turned it on?

11 A She would have to, yes.

12 Q Okay. Was there any sound in the bathroom

13 that you heard, either before or after you -- after she

14 fell that would indicate that she might have been using

15 either the sink or the toilet in the bathroom?

16 A No sounds at all.

17 Q How was she dressed?

18 A She had a night shirt on with pants, with --

19 Q Underpants?

20 A I think they were sweat pants.

21 Q Oh, okay. Sweat pants?

22 A Yeah.

23 Q Was the night shirt something she would have

24 slept in?

25 A Yes. Yeah.

___

p.101 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q How about the sweat pants?

2 A She slept in them.

3 Q She slept in sweat pants and a night shirt?

4 A Oh, yeah.

5 Q Okay. It's cold in February, oh, yeah.

6 A It's cold.

7 Q So that would have been her sleeping attire?

8 A Some nights, yes.

9 Q Okay. Were there any other lights on that

10 you noticed beside the bathroom light?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What other light?

13 A It was just a night light that we have out in

14 the kitchen that goes on when it gets dark.

15 Q Okay. That wasn't one that someone would

16 have turned on?

17 A No. No.

18 Q Other than that, were there any other lights

19 on?

20 A No.

21 Q Did you hear her when she got out of bed?

22 A No, I did not.

23 Q Do you know why she got out of bed?

24 A Looks like she was doing something with the

25 cats.

___

p.102 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q You had some cats?

2 A Uh-huh.

3 Q That's a yes?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. Were the cats in the house at the

6 time?

7 A Yes.

8 Q How many cats did you have?

9 A Two.

10 Q You said something with the cats, what do you

11 mean by that, playing with them or letting them out or

12 what?

13 A Could be. No. They were indoor cats.

14 Q Okay. Why do you say it looks like she was

15 doing something with the cats?

16 A Because they both came walking out of the

17 bathroom when I ran out there.

18 Q Oh, okay.

19 A They could have jumped over her or whatever.

20 I don't know if she was doing something with the cats

21 or not.

22 Q Oh, okay.

23 A It just looked to be like she was.

24 Q Now, what -- when you saw her, do you know

25 what time it was?

___

p.103 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A I believe it was almost five a.m..

2 Q When you saw her, how was she lying; in other

3 words, on her back or --

4 A On her back.

5 Q Did she make any sound at all before she fell

6 that you heard?

7 A No, not -- I didn't hear any sounds before

8 she fell.

9 Q What did you do, then, after you --

10 A After she fell?

11 Q After you found her in hallway.

12 A I was -- I was to her within two seconds. I

13 seen she stopped breathing, I ran to the phone, called

14 911 within five seconds and panicked.

15 Q What did you do, then, after that?

16 A I went over to her, I -- I thought maybe --

17 I just started talking to her and holding her; I didn't

18 know what to do.

19 Q Did you try any CPR?

20 A No.

21 Q You mentioned you saw that she stopped

22 breathing. What did you do?

23 A When she stopped breathing?

24 Q No. No. No. How did you determine that,

25 that she had stopped breathing?

___

p.104 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A Because I felt her chest and I heard her gasp

2 once, you know, and --

3 Q Okay. Then what happened?

4 A I immediately went over and called 911.

5 Q Okay. After -- after 911 and after you were

6 holding her, what was -- what then happened, was the

7 next thing that happened?

8 A I laid Terry down, I went over and called

9 my -- I remember my brother-in-law lived in the same

10 complex; I called him.

11 Q Called brother-in-law?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q What is his name?

14 A Robert.

15 Q Schindler?

16 A Correct.

17 Q And what happened then, who came first?

18 A He was there within minutes, within -- I'm

19 sorry, seconds, because he just lived right around the

20 corner, and as soon as he came up, the paramedics

21 pulled up.

22 Q How long did it take the paramedics to get

23 there?

24 A Four minutes, five minutes; at the most, six,

25 seven minutes.

___

p.105 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q What did you and Robert do, if anything --

2 A Nothing.

3 Q -- before the paramedics got there?

4 A Nothing we could do. I didn't know what to

5 do.

6 Q Okay. And then what happened? It's my

7 understanding that the fire department got there first

8 and then the paramedics came; do you recall that?

9 A I don't recall that at all.

10 Q Okay.

11 A I'm sorry, yeah, the fire department -- the

12 paramedic fire department --

13 Q Right.

14 A -- got there first.

15 Q Right. And what happened then?

16 A They looked her over and started CPR and --

17 Q Okay.

18 A And I went out and I was just spastic in the

19 living room.

20 Q Were there any medications kept in the

21 bathroom?

22 A None.

23 Q Where did you keep your medications?

24 A In the kitchen cabinet in the little bin we

25 had.

___

p.106 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q And what medications were present? And you

2 might have mentioned it before, but on that date.

3 A On that date, the Valrelease, the Percocet, I

4 think, or --

5 Q Or Tylenol?

6 A Tylenol, whatever it was.

7 Q Anything else?

8 A Not that I can recall.

9 Q What happened then? How long were the

10 paramedics there, as far as you can recall.

11 administering to your wife?

12 A I don't recall. It was just -- they were

13 there working on her for a while.

14 Q And then what happened?

15 A And then the ambulance got there and they

16 transported her to Humana, and I even think the

17 paramedics went with her.

18 Q Did you then go to Humana?

19 A I went with them, yes.

20 Q Okay. What other family members were there?

21 You mentioned -- I forget.

22 A My mother-in-law, father-in-law and

23 brother-in-law.

24 Q Okay.

25 A And my sister-in-law came down from Orlando.

___

p.107 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q You mentioned the fact that you had

2 conversations with certain of the consultants in

3 addition to Dr. Shah. Do you recall specifically on

4 that day --

5 A Specifically on the 25th?

6 Q On the 25th what they might have said to you

7 regarding what had happened to Terry?

8 A The only person I talked to on the 25th was

9 Dr. Shah.

10 Q Okay. Did you have any conversation with him

11 that you can recall as to what had happened to Terry?

12 A No. We were all -- he was still looking for

13 problems.

14 Q Okay.

15 A It was early into the thing, and then I

16 didn't see him again for a while.

17 Q Okay. Let's now stay with the time that

18 she's in Humana Hospital. You've had some

19 conversations with not only Dr. Shah, but also some of

20 the consultants; is that correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Okay. Not from a medical point of view, but

23 from what you might recall, do you recall what any of

24 them told you might have happened to Terry and why?

25 A No. At the time?

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p.108 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Yeah. I'm talking about while she was --

2 A Any time?

3 Q While she was in Humana Hospital.

4 A Any period that --

5 Q Any period of time she was in Humana

6 Hospital.

7 A Yes. People did -- I'm sorry, people did

8 tell me what they thought might have happened to Terry.

9 Q Okay. What -- first of all, if you can

10 identify who those people are, and secondly, what they

11 told you.

12 A Dr. Shah's assistant --

13 Q And who was that?

14 A God. Dr. Patel.

15 Q Okay. And what did he say?

16 A I'm trying to remember. Was it Dr. Patel?

17 Q Assume that it was. Maybe it wasn't, but

18 what were you told?

19 A That everything looked like that Terry was

20 bulimic.

21 Q Okay. Did you know what bulimia was at the

22 time when you had this conversation with him?

23 A Oh, yeah. I've heard of it before.

24 Q Okay. And do you know what you meant when he

25 said it looked like Terry was bulimic?

___

p.109 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A He said the signs it looked like, but I

2 didn't know what the signs were.

3 Q Did he tell you what they were?

4 A As a matter of fact, no, he didn't.

5 Q Did he say why it was he felt that way?

6 A I guess because of the albumin level and

7 potassium level.

8 Q Did you have any indication yourself during

9 all the time that you were dating and then married to

10 Terry that she in any way was binging and purging?

11 A I had no -- no, none whatsoever.

12 Q Did you ever see her binge; in other words,

13 eat an enormous quantity of food?

14 A I've seen her eat an enormous quantity of

15 food, but never binge, never purge.

16 Q Okay. What kind of -- when you say she'd eat

17 an enormous quantity of food, what kind of a quantity

18 are we talking about?

19 A Like I say, she would get up on Sundays and

20 make herself a huge omelette and eat it, or we'd get

21 pizza and she'd eat a lot of that. I mean, she ate

22 normally in front of me every time we ate.

23 Q Okay. I think you already mentioned there

24 was -- you never had to say to her, Terry, you need to

25 eat a more balanced diet, or you need to eat regularly?

___

p.110 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A No. I -- I never said that to her, no.

2 Q What did you say to her?

3 A I told her maybe once or twice to her, you

4 know, you're losing a little too much weight now, you

5 know, why don't you --

6 Q How did you feel about her weight? By this I

7 mean, you know, you dated her and you married her when

8 she weighed something around 145 pounds, and then she

9 was now, at this period of time, weighing in the area

10 of 120. What was your feeling with regard to her

11 weight one way or another?

12 A I -- I never really thought about it that

13 much. You know, I -- you know, Terry was my wife, I

14 didn't marry her because of her weight, you know, I --

15 I never really noticed -- I mean, a real decline in her

16 weight. I mean, she would lose weight and then she

17 would gain it and she would -- you know, and I never

18 paid attention to it. I didn't think I had to.

19 Q Well, no. No. No. I was basically asking

20 you if you had a preference with regard to weight, how

21 you liked her. Some guys like, you know, women who are

22 real thin and some guys like women --

23 A It didn't matter to me.

24 Q -- you know, who have got some meat on their

25 bones, you know.

___

p.111 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A It didn't matter to me. I married Terry

2 because I loved Terry because of her personality and

3 Terry.

4 Q So her weight was of not real concern to you;

5 is that correct?

6 A Correct. Sorry.

7 Q Did anyone else there make any comment to you

8 with regard to Terri's condition and why they felt she

9 was like she was?

10 A At the hospital?

11 Q Yes, sir. You mentioned Dr. Patel and what

12 he had said.

13 A Like I said, I'm not sure it's Dr. Patel.

14 Q Okay. I'm sorry, maybe, how's that.

15 A Maybe.

16 Q I'll put a big question mark there. How's

17 that?

18 A No, I don't remember. I really don't

19 remember. That was a long time ago.

20 Q Okay. Well, let me ask you this question.

21 Has anyone up to this date said to you, other than your

22 lawyers or consultants hired by your lawyers, you know,

23 other than the people, you know, that your lawyers have

24 told me are going to be their expert witnesses at

25 trial, has anyone told you other than those people why

___

p.112 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 it was in their opinion Terry had this arrest or attack

2 on the morning of February 25, 1990?

3 A Outside of lawyers?

4 Q Outside of lawyers and people hired by

5 lawyers.

6 A And doctors and nurses, no. No. Everybody

7 was dumbfounded on the whole thing.

8 Q The only restriction I had to that was the

9 people who were hired by your lawyers. In other words,

10 you know, the doctors hired by your lawyers, but I'm

11 talking about any treating physician, anybody at

12 Mediplex or at Palms or at Bayfront or at --

13 A I mean, it was the talk -- I mean, nurses

14 have come up to me and said, you know, we hear Terry

15 was a bulimic, or they thought she was bulimic. It's

16 in the records.

17 Q Yeah, I've seen those.

18 A How about her friends, have you talked to

19 them after the fact, people -- like you mentioned

20 Jackie Adams and I forgot the names you had there, but

21 Terry Welch and Mary Ann, Sue Schwartz, how about those

22 people, have you talked to them since that?

23 A They -- in the hospital when they came to

24 visit. And they were, you know --

25 Q What did they say?

___

p.113 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 A -- confused but, you know, they thought -- as

2 they went on and thought about things, they -- they

3 can't -- they couldn't figure it out.

4 Q What do they tell you about her eating habits

5 when you weren't with her, because they were with her

6 during the day and you weren't?

7 A Well, they said they would go out to lunch or

8 breakfast and Terry would just drink orange juice.

9 They'd go out to lunch, but she'd eat but then when

10 she'd come back to the office, she would quick run to

11 the bathroom. But that could mean anything. Nobody

12 had ever thought anything of it.

13 Q Did they ever indicate to you that they knew

14 that she had any kind of eating disorder?

15 A No. They never indicated that to me.

16 Q Okay. Well, have you ever come upon your

17 wife at any time throwing up?

18 A No.

19 Q From the time that Terry went in until today,

20 other than what you've already told me with regard to

21 her condition, has her condition in any way changed

22 other tn what you've told me before about her opening

23 her eyes and getting some response to noise?

24 A Like I said before, no. If there's any

25 change, very minutely.

___

p.114 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Where did you get your prescriptions filled?

2 A Walgreen's.

3 Q Other than milk products and lettuce, did

4 your wife have any allergies or intolerances? Sulfa,

5 we know about that one. Other than that one, too.

6 A No. My mother-in-law would know this one.

7 Q Okay. Well, if she's going to --

8 A What was the other one she was allergic to?

9 Q I'll talk to her when --

10 A Benadryl.

11 Q Benadryl?

12 A Yeah.

13 Q Now that you look back at it, you know,

14 talking to Dr. Patel, or whoever it was, and the nurses

15 and maybe the friends, do you now recall any times with

16 regard to Terry, and I realize you weren't with her a

17 lot, you know, due to the fact that you were working

18 different -- you know, different shifts, that there was

19 evidence in her behavior of being bulimic?

20 A One time that I can remember is we were

21 sitting at home and we just had dinner, and she said

22 she was going to go to the bathroom, and she went into

23 the bathroom and she turned all the water on. So I get

24 curious and I went up to her and I said, Terry, what

25 are you doing? She said, well, it's just cold in here.

___

p.115 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 I'm just trying to warm the place up, and I just left

2 it at that because that was that. I thought, well,

3 maybe she is warming the place up, you know.

4 Q What time of year was that?

5 A It had to be in the cold time.

6 Q Okay. Anything other than that?

7 A Just stuff that my family would notice.

8 Q Like what?

9 A when my aunt and uncle were here, they went

10 out to -- I was at work and they went to dinner, and

11 she ate. My aunt said she got up and went to the

12 bathroom, came back and she was pure white. I didn't

13 think anything of it.

14 Q That's when they went out to dinner?

15 A Yeah. She didn't think anything, you know.

16 she thought, well, maybe she was just not feeling good.

17 Q Okay.

18 A But, you know, as time went on, everybody

19 starts to think about this stuff.

20 Q What are your aunt's and uncle's names?

21 A Richard and Carol.

22 Q Schiavo?

23 A Schiavo, yes.

24 Q And where do they live?

25 A New Jersey.

___

p.116 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Whereabouts?

2 A Medford.

3 Q This is going to be a very hard question for

4 me to ask you, but basically do you blame your wife for

5 what happened to her?

6 A No, I do not.

7 Q Why is that?

8 A I just don't blame her.

9 Q Okay.

10 A I mean, I don't --

11 Q I'm not trying to get you to --

12 A Well, let's just leave it at that. I don't

13 blame her.

14 Q Okay. What do you feel -- what do you

15 personally feel was the cause of her problem; if you

16 knew? I mean, if you feel -- if you have any feelings

17 in that regard.

18 A I feel that there's something -- there was

19 something wrong with Terry, and she was trying to get

20 some help and people just ignored her.

21 Q What people?

22 A Just doctors in general. My personal

23 opinion.

24 Q In what way?

25 A In a way maybe she was trying to tell

___

p.117 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 somebody she had an eating disorder and nobody wanted

2 to pay attention.

3 Q Okay.

4 A I don't know.

5 Q Okay.

6 A That's my own personal opinion on it.

7 Q But you never suspected she had an eating

8 disorder; is that right; is that correct?

9 A Never.

10 Q Never. And have you talked to her parents as

11 to whether or not they ever suspected she had an eating

12 disorder?

13 A Yes, we did, but they never suspected it

14 either, as far as I know.

15 Q Okay. And you saw her daily?

16 A No, I didn't see her daily.

17 Q Well, I'm sorry, that's right, but you saw

18 her weekly anyway?

19 A I seen her weekly, yes.

20 Q And you slept in the same bed?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Let me ask you the same question, do you

23 blame yourself at all for not recognizing the fact that

24 she's had this problem?

25 A I did.

___

p.118 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Do you anymore?

2 A No. No.

3 Q Has your wife been seen by any other

4 physicians other than the ones we've talked about? And

5 I'm -- and let me tell you what I know about. I know

6 she saw the doctors at Humana; I know she saw the

7 doctors back up in Pennsylvania, Drs. Ickler, Winer and

8 Werther; I know she saw Dr. Igel; Dr. Prawer; all the

9 doctors and consultants at Humana; the doctor at

10 Mediplex; the doctor at Sable Palms; the doctor at

11 College Harbor and the doctors at Palms of Pasadena

12 Hospital when she was, you know, living at home with

13 you. Were there any other physicians that you know

14 about that she saw?

15 A Just the one orthopedic doctor that took her

16 toe off, or the -- orthopedic, is that what they are?

17 Q Yeah, probably. That would be what they

18 would be, right.

19 A Yeah, you'll have to get the name from --

20 Q There was a mention, as Mr. Woodworth

21 indicated earlier when we were talking about Dr.

22 Prawer's records, of her seeing a Dr. Osher who was an

23 orthopedic doctor. Do you recall anything about that

24 at all?

25 A I don't remember him at all.

___

p.119 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 Q Okay.

2 A In Humana?

3 Q This is Humana Med First note I've got here,

4 so I'm just referring to --

5 A I don't know what Humana Med First is.

6 Q Okay. Assume it's a walk-in clinic, okay.

7 but you don't know anything about that, right?

8 A That is his other office, Humana, with Dr.

9 Mitchell and Dr. Shah.

10 Q Okay. Do you recall a time at any -- was

11 your wife ever taking any diuretics that you can

12 recall?

13 A No, she was not.

14 MR. DEACON: I'm almost done, I promise.

15 Okay. I am done. The only thing I want you to

16 do, if you would, and I had requested this, is if

17 you happen to have -- do you have any photographs

18 of your wife just for my benefit?

19 MS. HARWELL: The Schindlers are going to

20 bring lots of them in tonight.

21 MR. DEACON: Great.

22 MS. HARWELL: And we've got these.

23 MR. DEACON: Good. I just wanted to see.

24 And also --

25 THE DEPONENT: What kind of photographs do

___

p.120 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 you want?

2 MR. DEACON: I just wanted to see what she

3 looked like, what she looked like now and what she

4 looked like then. And a question also was --

5 THE DEPONENT: That was graduation.

6 MR. DEACON: Okay.

7 MS. HARWELL: We don't -- the Schindlers have

8 some after she went into the coma.

9 MR. DEACON: Okay. Good.

10 THE DEPONENT: This is her young years; this

11 is Terry right here.

12 MR. DEACON: Okay.

13 THE DEPONENT: This is when we got married.

14 This is her right after we got married; it was her

15 birthday three weeks after we got married.

16 MR. DEACON: Okay.

17 THE DEPONENT: And this is her on 1/17/87.

18 MR. DEACON: Okay.

19 THE DEPONENT: And that was her.

20 MR. DEACON: Okay. This date is when?

21 MS. HARWELL: That's the company picnic you

22 were --

23 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

24 it was like '88 maybe.

25 MR. DEACON: Okay. And you were going to

___

p.121 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 supply to your lawyer copies of any medical

2 containers --

3 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I'll bring -- you know,

4 I think I still have them at home.

5 MR. DEACON: Okay. Whatever you've got at

6 home, I appreciate it. That's all I have. Do you

7 want to tell him about reading and waiving?

8 MS. HARWELL: We better sign it.

9 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at

10 12:30 p.m.)

11 I have read the foregoing pages 1 through

12 114, inclusive, and herewith subscribe to same as a

13 correct transcription of the answers made by me to the

14 questions therein recorded, subject to corrections

15 thereof.

16

17 __________________________________DATE:
_____________________
18 MICHAEL SCHIAVO

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

___

p.122 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4

1 STATE OF FLORIDA )
)
2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

3 I, TAMMY J. BERKLER, RPR, CM, Notary Public,

4 State of Florida at Large,

5 DO HEREBY CERTIFY, that the foregoing

6 deposition was taken before me at the time and place

7 stated therein; that I administered unto the deponent

8 his oath to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and

9 nothing but the truth; that he was there and then

10 orally examined and testified as herein set forth; that

11 I reported said examination and testimony

12 stenographically, and that this transcript of

13 deposition constitutes a true and correct transcription

14 of the shorthand report of said deposition.

15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither related

16 to nor employed by any counsel or party to the cause

17 pending, nor interested in the event thereof.

18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto affixed

19 my hand and official seal this ______ day of August,

20 1992, at Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida.

21

22
_____________________________
23 ___
TAMMY J. BERKLER, RPR, CM
24 Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
25 My Commission Expires:

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

2 CASE NO. 92-939-15

3 ----------------------------------X
BARNETT BANK TRUST COMPANY as :
4 Guardian of the Property of :
THERESA SCHIAVO and MICHAEL :
5 SCHIAVO, individually, :
:
6 Plaintiffs, :
:
7 vs. :
:
8 G. STEPHEN IGEL, M.D. :
:
9 Defendant. :
----------------------------------X
10
BEFORE: The Honorable PHILIP A. FEDERICO
11 Circuit Judge

12 PLACE: Courtroom B
Pinellas County Courthouse
13 Clearwater, Florida 34616

14 DATE: November 5, 1992

15 TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M.

16 REPORTED BY: JOANNE GERBINO
Deputy Official Court Reporter
17 Sixth Judicial Circuit
State of Florida
18

19 -----------------------------
EXCERPT OF JURY TRIAL
20 TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL RICHARD SCHIAVO
-----------------------------
21
PAGES 1 - 48
22
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
23 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
315 COURT STREET, ROOM 3
24 CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34616
(813) 462-4858/(813) 530-6491
25

___
2

1 APPEARANCES: GLENN M. WOODWORTH, ESQUIRE
WOODWORTH & ASSOCIATES,
2 CHARTERED
Wittner Centre West
3 5999 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
4 and
GARY D. FOX, ESQUIRE
5 STEWART, TILGHMAN, FOX &
BLANCHI
6 44 West Flagler Street
Suite 1900
7 Miami, Florida 33130-1808

8

9

10 KENNETH C. DEACON, JR., ESQUIRE
HARRIS, BARRETT, MANN & DEW
11 Suite 1500
Southtrust Bank Building
12 150 Second Avenue North
St. Petersburg, Florida 33731
13 Attorney for Defendant

14

15 INDEX OF PROCEEDINGS

16 PAGE

17 Direct Examination by Mr. Woodworth 3

18 Cross-Examination by Mr. Deacon 28

19 Redirect Examination by Mr. Woodworth 45

20

21 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

22 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS ID IN EVID

23 #3 - Photo of Terry prior to collapse 24 26

24 #4 - Photo of Terry prior to collapse 24 26

25

___
3

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 * * * * * * *

3 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Moffat.

4 All right. Next witness, please.

5 MR. WOODWORTH: If the Court, please, we'd call

6 our last witness Michael Schiavo.

7 THE COURT: Mr. Schiavo, come forward, please.

8 THE BAILIFF: Sir, please stand here. Face the

9 Clerk. Raise your right hand to take the oath.

10 THEREUPON,

11 MICHAEL SCHIAVO

12 was called as a witness and after having been first duly

13 sworn on oath, was examined and testified as follows:

14 THE BAILIFF: Have a seat in the witness stand.

15 Speak up in a loud and clear voice.

16 DIRECT EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. WOODWORTH:

18 Q. State your full name, please.

19 A. My name is Michael Richard Schiavo.

20 Q. How old are you?

21 A. Twenty-nine.

22 Q. Where were you born?

23 A. I was born in Levittown, Pennsylvania.

24 Q. Where did you grow up?

25 A. In Levittown, Pennsylvania.

___
4

1 Q. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How many

2 brothers and sisters did you have?

3 A. I have four older brothers. I'm the baby of the

4 family. I did my whole history of schooling up there,

5 elementary, middle and high school, I even went to a year

6 and a half college, Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

7 Q. Michael, speak up so everybody can hear you in

8 the courtroom.

9 A. Sorry.

10 Q. Lousy acoustics.

11 You said you went to college in Pennsylvania?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Is that where you met Terry?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. How far into college were you when you all met?

16 A. We were basically into the second semester of

17 college. It's basically a year.

18 Q. How old were you when you met Terry?

19 A. I was twenty-one.

20 Q. How old was Terry?

21 A. Twenty.

22 Q. Did you all start seeing each other and fall in

23 love?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. How long did you date?

___
5

1 A. We dated approximately five months.

2 Q. Then you got married?

3 A. Then we gotten engaged and we were engaged for a

4 year and a half.

5 Q. Okay. After you got married, did both of you

6 start to work?

7 A. Before we got married we started work.

8 Q. Okay. And did she come to get a job at Prudential

9 Insurance Company up in Pennsylvania?

10 A. Yes, she did.

11 Q. And ultimately did you all decide you wanted to

12 move down to Florida?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long were you married when you decided to

15 move to Florida?

16 A. Approximately a year.

17 Q. So, did she get a transfer of her job with

18 Prudential and start working for Prudential when you all

19 moved here?

20 A. Yes, she did.

21 Q. When did you move to Florida?

22 A. In April of '86.

23 Q. Did her mom and dad move down shortly after you

24 did?

25 A. I believe it was three months after we did.

___
6

1 Q. How much did Terry weigh when you all got married?

2 A. When we were married she weighed 145 pounds.

3 Q. While you were engaged, did she weigh about that

4 amount or more or less?

5 A. She weighed -- she weighed more when we were

6 engaged.

7 Q. Okay. After you all moved to Florida, did Terry

8 lose more weight?

9 A. Yes, she did.

10 Q. And how far down the weight scale did she go?

11 A. I can remember Terry being about 110, 115 pounds.

12 Q. How did she feel about losing all that weight?

13 How did she feel about herself?

14 A. Terry felt very happy with herself. She was

15 content. She was very excited with herself.

16 Q. So far as you knew was Terry in good health?

17 A. As far as I knew.

18 Q. Tell our jury, if you will, what your impressions

19 of her eating habits were, particularly after you got to

20 Florida. You understand my question?

21 A. No, I don't. Can you rephrase it?

22 Q. What I'm asking, did you notice anything unusual

23 about her eating?

24 A. I noticed some peculiar eating habits, especially

25 on Sunday which was my day off, and she'd make breakfast

___
7

1 and she would make a huge omlette, I'm not talking Bob Evans

2 omlette, I'm talking huge omlette, and sit there and eat all

3 of it or we'd order a pizza and she'd eat practically all

4 of it.

5 Q. How about her normal eating habits, if she wasn't

6 eating one of these big Sunday breakfasts or one of these

7 pizzas, did she have any other eating habits that you

8 thought were unusual or peculiar?

9 A. No, she ate normally otherwise.

10 Q. Did you have any indication that Terry had any

11 kind of a psychological problem or a eating disorder as

12 we've heard about during this trial?

13 A. None whatsoever.

14 Q. Tell our jury about her habits of drinking fluids.

15 Did you notice anything unusual about that?

16 A. I noticed she would consume a large amount of

17 iced tea. She would consume close to a gallon of it in

18 one day.

19 Q. Was that like everyday or just once in a while?

20 A. I seen her do it on my day off on Sunday. I spent

21 two or three hours with her during the evening with her and

22 she had a couple glasses of iced tea then. I don't know

23 what she did any other time when I didn't see her.

24 Q. Tell us about her work schedule, let's say, during

25 the period of the year before she had her collapse. Was she

___
8

1 working during the day at Prudential?

2 A. Yes, she was.

3 Q. And were you working the night shift, so to speak,

4 or during the evenings as a manager of a restaurant?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. What restaurant were you the manager of?

7 A. Agastino's Restaurant.

8 Q. Out in Feathersound?

9 A. Feathersound on Ulmerton Road.

10 Q. Okay. So for a while there you all were not

11 spending your schedules on a regular basis together, you

12 were working when she was home and vice versa?

13 A. Correct, we were.

14 Q. Okay. When she lost this weight down into the

15 one hundred twenties, in the hundred, what did you say,

16 eighteens?

17 A. I said between 110 and 115.

18 Q. Did you notice that that caused her to have

19 stretch marks?

20 A. I've noticed stretch marks on her, yes.

21 Q. And did you also notice that her skin was loose

22 on her arms and her legs?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Did there come a time when you got concerned about

25 the fact that Terry was getting skinnier than you wanted her

___
9

1 to be and did you talk to her about it?

2 A. I mentioned it a couple times to her and got to

3 the point where a couple times when she took off her blouse

4 or something at night, I could see her bones, collarbones

5 and shoulder bones would stick out, and I'd mention, Terry,

6 enough is enough, let's gain a little weight now, and that

7 was that.

8 Q. Did you all decide at some point that you wanted

9 to start your family?

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 Q. And in terms of when she first went to see

12 Dr. Igel, let's say in February of 1989, was that about the

13 time you all decided to start your family?

14 A. Could you repeat that for me?

15 Q. When did you decide?

16 A. We decided somewhere, I believe it was in July.

17 Q. Okay. Tell us, if you will, about your knowledge

18 of Terry's menstrual cycle. Did you know that she had an

19 irregular menstrual cycle from time-to-time?

20 A. From which time-to-time, I mean before we were

21 married?

22 Q. Did you know she had an irregular menstrual cycle?

23 I'm sorry for the way I asked the question.

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you know that the whole time you knew her?

___
10

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. When did you find out that she had an irregular

3 menstrual cycle?

4 A. When she started seeing the doctor, Dr. Prawer.

5 Q. Okay. And he referred her to Dr. Igel for it?

6 A. Yes, he did.

7 Q. Did you know that when she was a youngster she had

8 an irregular menstrual cycle?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. Did Terry ever go to Dr. Igel thinking she might

11 be pregnant?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was her reaction when she found out on those

14 occasions that she wasn't pregnant?

15 A. We were both devastated.

16 Q. Do you recall the early morning of February 25th,

17 1990?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. That was the morning early when you woke up to

20 Terry's collapse?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And the EMS people came?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And finally got her breathing started?

25 A. Yes.

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11

1 Q. And she was taken off to Humana Northside in an

2 ambulance or EMS emergency vehicle?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. When she got there, you went with her?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Her mom and dad had been called and they went as

7 well?

8 A. They met us there, yes.

9 Q. How long was Terry in that hospital?

10 A. She was from February 25, '90 to May 9th of '90.

11 Q. And did you visit her regularly while she was

12 there?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. In fact, did you stay at that hospital?

15 A. Yes, I did. I stayed there for 16 days and

16 nights straight.

17 Q. And during that period of time, obviously, that

18 was real stressful and difficult for you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You had occasion to talk to your -- to her

21 doctors from time-to-time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The main doctor that she had there was who?

24 A. Dr. Shah.

25 Q. S-H-A-H?

___
12

1 A. Correct, yes.

2 Q. And also she had other doctors including

3 Dr. Barras, we've heard him testify?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And Dr. Shukinon (phonetic), the infectitious

6 disease doctor?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Did these doctors ask you about Terry's eating

9 habits?

10 A. I don't recall them asking me about them, I mean,

11 with all the commotion going on, you know.

12 Q. Okay. Do you recall them asking you anything

13 about her intake of fluids, asking you anything about her

14 intake of fluids?

15 A. Dr. Shah mentioned to me if Terry drank a lot of

16 coffee, and I said, no, she did drink a lot of iced tea and

17 that was --

18 Q. And you told him the same thing you told us --

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. -- about the gallon a day?

21 A. Yes, she drank close to a gallon a day.

22 Q. All right. Do you recall whether or not you told

23 Dr. Shah or any of the other doctors that you had been

24 concerned that she had not been eating enough because she

25 was getting so thin from time-to-time?

___
13

1 A. I don't actually recall saying that, I might have.

2 Q. Okay. After Terry was discharged from Humana

3 Northside, where did she then go?

4 A. She went from Humana to College Harbor Nursing

5 Home.

6 Q. And how long was she there?

7 A. She was there for 49 days.

8 Q. And then we heard Dr. Barras tell us about how he

9 then had her moved over to Bayfront?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. To the rehabilitation facility there?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And then after she left Bayfront you all brought

14 her home to a house that you and your mother-in-law and

15 father-in-law, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler, had for Terry to

16 come to?

17 A. Yeah, we all got together, rented a house and

18 knew Terry would be coming home with us.

19 Q. And how long did she stay home with you all?

20 A. She was home with us approximately three or four

21 months.

22 Q. And the three of you then tried to take care of

23 her around the clock?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And those were difficult times, I would take it?

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14

1 A. Yes, it was very difficult.

2 Q. After that what did you do as far as Terry is

3 concerned, where did she go?

4 A. Terry went back to College Harbor again, I

5 believe, for a couple weeks in the transition of us taking

6 her to California.

7 Q. You and Dr. Barras and her mom and dad and

8 Dr. Barras talked about this program in California that

9 might be of some help?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That Dr. Haso --

12 A. Hasbuchi.

13 Q. Have we already had his name spelled? I hope so.

14 I can't spell it. She then stayed out there in California

15 with Dr. Hasbuchi for how long?

16 A. Two months.

17 Q. And she had these electrodes planted?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you think that did any good?

20 A. It didn't do anything for her.

21 Q. But it was worth a try?

22 A. Yes, anything is worth a try.

23 Q. So after she came back, where did she go?

24 A. From California she came back to live with us

25 for about a week. I'm sorry, for nine days. She was with

___
15

1 us for nine days.

2 Q. While you were all making arrangements for her to

3 go to Mebiplex?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell us, Mebiplex down in Bradenton?

6 A. Mebiplex deals with stroke victims, spinal

7 problems, head injuries. It's a facility dealing with

8 extensive rehab trying to break people from their comas and

9 bringing them up to different levels of a coma.

10 Q. Okay. How long was she there?

11 A. Six months.

12 Q. Was Dr. Alcavarian (phonetic) her main doctor

13 there?

14 A. Yes, he was. Yes.

15 Q. Did they rehabilitate her to any degree there?

16 Were they able to make any strives or headway?

17 A. No.

18 Q. By the way, let me back up, how did Terry actually

19 physically get from here to California?

20 A. I had a lot of fund raisers and I raised some

21 money to fly her out to California.

22 Q. Did you fly commercial or how?

23 A. Yes, we flew commercial. We flew, I believe it

24 was Eastern. We had to buy four First Class seats and took

25 two seats out to put a stretcher in and I took a critical

___
16
1 care nurse with me.

2 Q. And that's how you got her back, too?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After Mebiplex, where did she go?

5 A. Mebiplex she went to Sabal Palms.

6 Q. She's been at Sabal Palms ever since?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you select Sabal Palms? Did you check it out

9 and decide that's a good place for her?

10 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

11 Q. What I'm going to do now is ask we get our video

12 started, it it's all right, Your Honor, and I would like you

13 to, Michael, to get where you can see the screen and tell

14 the jury, if you will, what's going on in this video.

15 A. Okay. You want me to use his, too, or --

16 Q. No, I think you best come down here. If you can

17 see it from right over there, that will be fine. Can you

18 see it from there? Maybe you can come over here with me.

19 Is that fine, Your Honor?

20 THE COURT: Certainly.

21 MR. WOODWORTH: With the Court's permission, while

22 we're getting this started, early on, if I may, let me

23 just orient us. We originally told the jury we would

24 bring Terry in in lieu of this film. Your Honor, we

25 think that this will take care of that. This is a film

___
17

1 that was made relatively recently at Sabal Palms which

2 is designed to compress the average day for Terry into

3 a twenty minute video so that you all, so the jury can

4 have an opportunity to see what the day was like.

5 And if we can start the video now.

6 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Mike, if you will, just as we

7 go along, tell the jury what's happening here.

8 Do you remember when we went over to Sabal Palms?

9 Tell the jury what's going on now.

10 A. Right here, basically, you can see she's dressed,

11 she's already had her shower and everything. We would get

12 her dressed, put her shoes and socks on. I'm trying out her

13 hands there. You have to keep the inside of the hands,

14 since she's contracted, you have to keep them dry because

15 infection can set in, and I usually do a little bit of range

16 of motion with her.

17 Q. And while you're doing that, do you talk to her?

18 A. Yes, I am talking to her right now telling her

19 it's okay.

20 Q. She doesn't like that very much?

21 A. No, she doesn't. She does feel pain.

22 MR. DEACON: I would have no problem.

23 with Mr. Schiavo --

24 MR. WOODWORTH: That's true.

25 MR. DEACON: I object to the comments by

___
18

1 Mr. Woodworth.

2 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll ask questions.

3 THE COURT: Thank you.

4 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Does she like that kind of

5 treatment very much?

6 A. No, she does not. Here I'm trying to bend her

7 leg.

8 Q. Now, I notice under her legs when you did that the

9 skin is very loose; is that true?

10 A. Yes, it is. Now we're about to transfer her to

11 her wheelchair.

12 Q. Michael, at this time now does she weigh more than

13 she did when she went to see Dr. Igel?

14 A. No, she doesn't weigh more. What I was just doing

15 with the pad there, it's a jay cushion, and you have to keep

16 it pushed down, you have to move that gel in there around so

17 it fits nicely around her bottom end. We'll sit her up on

18 the edge of the bed and my mother-in-law takes the feet and

19 I'll take the top end and we transfer her into her chair and

20 slide her down, and usually we're pretty careful about the

21 aligning of her body and her hips.

22 Now we'll go about and put the different fixtures on

23 the chair and strap her in.

24 Q. I notice, Michael, you're holding her head back.

25 why are you doing that?

___
19

1 A. Because she'll fall forward, and if she falls fast

2 she gets excited. It's -- I was told by a doctor she was

3 getting the feeling she's falling. This is the cross bar

4 that goes across her chest to keep her from falling forward.

5 This is the tray that goes in front of her arms that holds

6 her instead of her arms contracting in, to hold them out,

7 and we'll also place pillows. You'll see.

8 Now, we'll put the leg braces on.

9 Q. Why do you put the leg braces on for?

10 A. To help her to keep her knees more bent to help

11 stretch the top muscles of her legs and so it doesn't

12 shorten her legs and the legs won't become stiff and

13 straight out. And we strap her feet in to help because

14 she has foot drop right now and that helps bend the foot

15 down pulling those muscles and putting the foot down.

16 Here I'm brushing her teeth.

17 Q. Do you take her to the dentist from time-to-time?

18 A. Yes, we do.

19 Q. How often do you do that?

20 A. We try to do it twice a year. As a matter of

21 fact, she has an appointment Monday.

22 We try to keep her teeth as clean as possible. It's

23 very hard for us to get into the back of her mouth. She

24 clamps down and bites down on the toothbrush. I've had

25 problems before using the suction catheter and she bit the

___
20

1 suction catheter there.

2 Q. What are you doing now?

3 A. I'm putting on makeup. I put on her makeup

4 everyday and I'm finishing up her lipstick.

5 This is the speech pathologist who comes in and works

6 with Terry.

7 Q. This is the speech pathologist you say?

8 A. Yes, it's the speech pathologist.

9 Q. What does he do for her?

10 A. He comes in and massages her lips and uses

11 different flavors to try to help her swallow. You'll

12 notice he's moving her lips and it helps massage the side

13 of the mouth so the mouth doesn't tighten up.

14 Q. You hoping he can get her to the point where she

15 swallows?

16 A. Yes. You see here rubbing the bottom of her

17 throat, that's, I don't know what the word is, gets them to

18 swallow when you rub the bottom of their throat. She just

19 swallowed that time. Sometimes they use ice on her face,

20 too. It's a stimulation.

21 Q. What is that, Mike?

22 A. That's a -- that is basically used to stimulate

23 her tongue and the back of her tongue to help with her gag

24 reflex. And like I said, sometimes they use different

25 flavors.

___
21

1 Q. What are you getting ready to do here?

2 A. We're getting ready to put what's called a tilt

3 table. The lady is helping me and what we'll do is just

4 slide her over to this table.

5 Q. And then after you get her on the table, what

6 happens then?

7 A. We will slowly stand her to a standing position.

8 Q. Why do you do that?

9 A. This is very good for like, she has drop legs, and

10 it's good for stretching the Achilles tendon and good for

11 the skin and good for contractors and good for circulation,

12 and it's good for somebody in Terry's condition that lies

13 down all the time. It's good for when -- it's good for

14 replacing the organs in your system back to where they're

15 supposed to be. Now while they're doing this, they usually

16 monitor the blood pressure.

17 Now we're just going to transfer her back into the bed.

18 This is where I'm getting her ready to start her feeding.

19 What that bottle is is her food. It's basically all

20 nutrition. It is all nutritious food. That wire I'm

21 playing with right there will connect to her catheter or her

22 Peg tube as they call it.

23 Q. That's the tube that goes into her stomach?

24 A. Into her stomach.

25 Q. How long does that feeding take place? How long

___
22

1 does it take to accomplish that?

2 A. They start her 6:00 in the morning and complete

3 the runs until 8:00 the next morning.

4 Q. Now what I'm doing here is changing the dressing

5 around the stoma. The stoma is very, very important, the

6 most important part of her medical treatment is right

7 now due to the fact that the acids from her stomach could

8 come up through that hole, and if that happens, it's very,

9 very irritating and it's very, very hard to clear up.

10 Acid from your stomach can burn a hole in the rug.

11 What we do is we apply some, what we call Bactroban, it

12 helps soothe the area and keeps the bugs down, also. And

13 if that tube were to come out accidentally and nobody knew it,

14 they would have to take Terry to the hospital and have it

15 opened up again because it will close within five minutes

16 that stoma.

17 Q. What's the problem over here?

18 A. Terry had a persistent sore on top of her toe, and

19 the hand you see is Dr. Brown the podiatrist coming in and

20 treating it. And what you'll see is see the blackened area

21 keeps coming back and they don't know why so she'll scrape

22 it and see what's going on.

23 Q. Did she have problems with a toe on her other

24 foot? I think we heard some other testimony from Dr. Mulroy

25 about a toe that had to be amputated?

___
23

1 A. On her left foot. The small toe developed an

2 ulceration, what we believe were the potis boots we were

3 using for her and turned to osteomyelitis and her toe had to

4 be removed. The bone had to be taken out.

5 This is the physical therapist that's coming in now.

6 When he gets set up, I'll explain to you what he's doing.

7 The people you see now are assistants.

8 Q. Does she express discomfort when some of these

9 things are happening to her?

10 A. Yes. Yes, she does.

11 Q. How does she do that?

12 A. She'll moan and groan.

13 Q. What are these therapists trying to do for her?

14 A. At the moment they're setting her up so they can

15 use ultrasound on the back of her heel cord and calves.

16 Q. What is that supposed to do?

17 A. Ultrasound helps to relax the muscles to be better

18 stretched. You'll see when he does it, he'll start

19 stretching the heel cord or the Achilles tendons.

20 Q. Is that a lamb's wool protector over that side

21 rail?

22 A. Yes, it is. Now, this is the other leg they're

23 doing.

24 Q. And I see is she all healed up on -- from the

25 amputation on that foot?

___
24

1 A. Yes, she's all healed, yes.

2 Now what he's going to start to do is going to stretch

3 that muscle out here.

4 Q. In one fashion or another, Mike, are all of the

5 joints of her body limbered up in some fashion with these

6 various kinds of things that you all are doing for her?

7 A. It's preventing them from getting any worse, yes.

8 And what he's doing right there is pretty uncomfortable.

9 He's working more with her. We take her out for walks.

10 usually take her out to the pond and sit and feed the ducks.

11 And now the cooler weather is coming and they have a

12 baseball field next to her and little leaguers play ball.

13 I like to get her outside for fresh air.

14 Q. Okay. You can resume your seat.

15 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'm fairly close to

16 finishing and if its' all right with the Court, we can

17 leave the equipment there for the time.

18 THE COURT: That's fine.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Michael, I'm going to hand

20 you two photographs which our Clerk has marked as

21 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 4.

22 MR. WOODWORTH: May I approach, Your Honor?

23 THE COURT: Yes.

24 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) And Plaintiff's Exhibit

25 Number 3 for identification. Can you tell us whether those

___
25

1 two pictures look like Terry looked before she had her

2 collapse?

3 A. Before she had her collapse?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'd like to introduce

7 these as Plaintiff's Exhibits in evidence, if I may.

8 MR. DEACON: May I see them?

9 THE COURT: Surely.

10 MR. DEACON: Did you have them identified when

11 before the collapse it was taken, how many days,

12 approximately?

13 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Do you remember the

14 approximate dates?

15 A. The one with the tiger, maybe two years, a year

16 and a half ago, the tiger one.

17 MR. DEACON: A year and a half ago?

18 A. Before. It had to be like '88.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) What about this one, maybe

20 '87, '86?

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Is that how she looked before this collapse

23 happened?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay.

___
26

1 MR. DEACON: I have no objection at all, Judge.

2 THE COURT: It will be marked in evidence.

3 MR. WOODWORTH: May I have a moment, Your Honor?

4 THE COURT: Yes. You have nothing else?

5 MR. WOODWORTH: Just a few questions, Your Honor.

6 THE COURT: I misunderstood. I'm sorry.

7 MR. WOODWORTH: As soon as these are marked, I'd

8 like to publish them to the jury.

9 At this time Your Honor, I am publishing these

10 two photographs to the jury so that they know what

11 Terry looked like just before this happened.

12 MR. DEACON: Could you identify on the back which

13 he said is the one as '88 and one was about '87.

14 Q. The tiger?

15 A. That was '88.

16 Q. Michael, have you started to go to nursing school?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Where did you go to nursing school?

19 A. I'm going -- I'm attending St. Pete Junior

20 College.

21 Q. When did you start?

22 A. Approximately a year ago.

23 Q. When do you hope to finish?

24 A. We're looking at something like 1994.

25 Q. Why did you want to learn to be a nurse?

___
27

1 A. Because I enjoy it and I want to learn more how

2 to take care of Terry.

3 Q. You're a young man. Your life is ahead of you.

4 Your future is beyond you. Up the road, when you look up

5 the road, what do you see for yourself?

6 A. I see myself hopefully finishing school and taking

7 care of my wife.

8 Q. Where do you want to take care of your wife?

9 A. I want to bring my wife home.

10 Q. If you had the resources available to you, if you

11 had the equipment and the people, would you do that?

12 A. Yes, I would, in a heartbeat.

13 Q. How do you feel about being married to Terry now?

14 A. I feel wonderful. She's my life and I wouldn't

15 trade her for the world. I believe in my -- I believe in my

16 wedding vows.

17 Q. What do you mean? You want to take a minute?

18 A. Yeah.

19 MR. WOODWORTH: If the Court would let us take a

20 minute.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) You okay?

22 A. Yeah. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Have -- you said you believe in your wedding vows,

24 what do you mean by that?

25 A. I believe in the vows that I took with my wife,

___
28

1 through sickness, in health, for richer or poorer. I

2 married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the

3 rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that.

4 MR. WOODWORTH: That's all.

5 THE COURT: Mr. Deacon.

6 MR. DEACON: May it please the Court.

7 Mr. Woodworth, Mr. Fox.

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. DEACON:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Schiavo.

11 A. Hi. How are you?

12 Q. How you doing?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. You okay?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. You're doing okay?

17 A. Yeah, I'm fine now.

18 Q. Okay. Is everybody doing okay? It's kind of

19 tough. You're very devoted to your wife; is that right?

20 A. Yes, I am.

21 Q. And that's very obvious and you're very much to

22 be commended for that.

23 Your marriage was a short one or your marriage had been

24 a short one before this incident happened to her?

25 A. My marriage --

___
29

1 Q. Up to this incident happening, you hadn't been

2 married very long is what I meant.

3 A. We've been married five years.

4 Q. During that time, up to this time that that had

5 happened, that this incident happened to her, your marriage

6 was a happy one, was it not?

7 A. It was very happy.

8 Q. Since this incident happened, and it happened on

9 February 25, 1990, has her condition, in your observation,

10 from your observation, changed appreciably?

11 A. What condition you talking about?

12 Q. I'm talking about the fact you found her after her

13 heart attack on the floor about 5:00 in the morning on a

14 Sunday morning; is that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And the paramedics came and they resuscitated her

17 and took her to Humana Hospital; is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And from that time that she got to Humana Hospital

20 until today when we saw her on film, has her condition

21 changed appreciably?

22 A. No. She opens her eyes.

23 Q. She opens her eyes and she's off the ventilator?

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. Let me take you back, if I can, to Pennsylvania

___
30

1 and the time that you lived there. One thing we established

2 at your deposition was the fact that you're not very good

3 with dates.

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. That's correct. Okay. We've now established what

6 was the date of your marriage?

7 A. We were married November 10, 1984.

8 Q. All right. And you came to Florida when?

9 A. In April of '86.

10 Q. Okay. You had some different dates but that's --

11 you established that as being the date; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, we did.

13 Q. Okay. All right. When you were in Pennsylvania,

14 did your wife see a doctor for any reason?

15 A. When in Pennsylvania, before we were married?

16 Q. I am sorry; after you were married?

17 A. After we were married?

18 Q. Yes, sir.

19 A. To my recollection, no.

20 Q. Wasn't there a time in Pennsylvania where she went

21 to see Dr. Mambu thinking she was pregnant?

22 A. Yes. Yes, she did. Yes.

23 Q. And that was sometime in 1985, April of '85, May

24 of '85?

25 A. A few months into our marriage.

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31

1 Q. After you were married a few months your wife

2 thought she was pregnant, she went to see the doctor and

3 found out she was, in fact, not pregnant; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Were you trying to get pregnant at that time or

6 was it just one of those things?

7 A. No, one of those things. We weren't planning on

8 getting pregnant that early.

9 Q. You found out -- why was it that she thought she

10 was pregnant?

11 A. Because evidently she missed a period.

12 Q. She went to the doctor in April and in May of

13 that year, do you recall?

14 A. April and May of which year?

15 Q. If Dr. Mambu's records reflect that --

16 A. Of which year you talking about?

17 A. 1985.

18 A. I recall her going to the doctor to see if she was

19 pregnant and that's all I remember about that.

20 Q. From the time you were married in November of '84

21 until she went to see the doctor in April of '85, was her

22 weight fairly stable?

23 A. In '84?

24 Q. '85.

25 A. It fluctuated a few pounds.

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32

1 Q. A couple pounds?

2 A. A couple pounds.

3 Q. It was relatively stable?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At that time I think we can describe her weight as

6 fairly mid-weight, between the two weights she had?

7 A. That I can't recall.

8 Q. I think she was 145?

9 A. When we got married.

10 Q. When you got married and stayed that weight until

11 you came down to Florida?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And then when you came to Florida in April of '86

14 she lost more weight, went down to 120's and so, is that

15 right even more?

16 A. I believe so, yes.

17 Q. All right. And that was in '86, was it not?

18 A. I don't remember the years.

19 Q. Okay. I think --

20 A. I don't remember every one of her weights.

21 Q. All right. You got some pictures there and you

22 put some dates on them. Are those pretty much approximate

23 dates?

24 A. Guesstimate. I am not good with dates. We've

25 already established that.

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33

1 Q. We established that, sure. And but sometime

2 around '86 or so she lost about another 20 pounds; is that

3 about right?

4 A. I don't recall that, no.

5 Q. We have a picture of her.

6 A. I think I stated --

7 Q. That you've estimated to be around 1987 and shows

8 her in shorts with a teddybear or a chipmunk, I guess it is,

9 at a theme park or something?

10 A. Disney World

11 Q. Is that pretty much the way she looked in 1987;

12 is that correct?

13 A. IF the date I gave is correct.

14 Q. Did she continue to look like that in '87, '88,

15 '89 up to the time that she had her heart attack in 1990?

16 A. No, she fluctuated weight.

17 Q. More than a few pounds?

18 A. Between, I'd say, 20, 25 pounds up and down.

19 Q. Okay. When she saw Dr. Prawer in 1987, I think

20 the records will show she weighed about 120, 119 pounds?

21 A. That's what his records show.

22 Q. In 1989 when she saw Dr. Igel, she weighed 121.

23 Those records, you were here when he went through those

24 records?

25 A. Yes.

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34

1 Q. And then in 1990 in February she weighed 124.

2 Your wife, all during your marriage, had an intolerance to

3 certain foods, did she not?

4 A. All during what?

5 Q. I mean during your married life she had an

6 intolerance to certain types of foods?

7 A. I found that our before we -- after we came to

8 Florida.

9 Q. There was a couple types of food she wouldn't eat

10 without getting sick?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Those were lettuce, salads?

13 A. Roughage, lettuce, dairy product.

14 Q. Ice cream, milk, creams?

15 A. Dairy products.

16 Q. How would that effect her if she'd eat those

17 foods?

18 A. She'd get real gassy, get diarrhea.

19 Q. You mentioned the fact that she drank a lot of

20 iced tea after she came to Florida; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. About a gallon a day?

23 A. Estimating a gallon a day.

24 Q. Did she drink a lot of iced tea before she came to

25 Florida that --

___
34

1 A. Not that I recall.

2 Q. In addition to iced tea, did she drink a lot of

3 liquids?

4 A. I noticed one time she drank a lot of Coke.

5 Q. Coca-Cola?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Now, did you ever have any inclination at all that

8 your wife may have had some type of eating disorder?

9 A. I had no inclination at all, absolutely none.

10 Q. And you saw her everyday?

11 A. I didn't see her everyday.

12 Q. Well, you worked, I understand different shifts,

13 you worked nights and she worked days?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. You worked from 10:00 to 12:00 and she worked

16 like 7:00 to 3:30; is that correct?

17 A. I worked 10:00 in the morning to 10:00 or 11:00 at

18 night.

19 Q. Right. And she worked during the day?

20 A. During the morning hours, yes.

21 Q. There were times, though, you had sometimes off;

22 is that correct?

23 A. My time off was basically Sunday.

24 Q. All right. And but you slept with her at night?

25 A. Right.

___
36

1 Q. And you saw her in the mornings?

2 A. No, I didn't see her in the mornings.

3 Q. Okay. She left before you got up?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You saw her on weekends?

6 A. I seen on --

7 Q. Sundays?

8 A. Sundays, and a couple hours before I left for

9 work on Saturday.

10 Q. You've had various jobs while you're here in

11 Florida, did you not?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. But most of them required you working at night?

14 A. Yes, most of them. All did, yes.

15 Q. And there was nothing about her appearance or

16 anything about her which in any way, shape or form gave you

17 any inclination that she had an eating disorder?

18 A. Nothing, no. No, none whatsoever.

19 Q. Nothing at all. This huge omlette she made on

20 Sunday and she ate all of it --

21 A. Every last bit of it.

22 Q. -- what would she do after she ate it?

23 A. She'd read the newspaper.

24 Q. Okay. Did she ever go to the bathroom after

25 eating large amounts of food like that?

___
37

1 A. Not right away, no.

2 Q. Did you ever notice any suspicious bathroom

3 activity on her part?

4 A. One time, yes.

5 Q. What was that?

6 A. We had just finished dinner, she said she was

7 going to go to the bathroom, she got up and went into the

8 bathroom and it was a chilly month and she closed the door

9 and was doing her business and she turned the water on. So,

10 I went up to the door, I said, Terry, what are you doing

11 with the water on, she said it's freezing in here, I'm

12 warming up. And Terry was always a chilly person. In the

13 summertime she wore blankets on the bed. And that's the

14 time I ever noticed about that and had no inclination and

15 never paid any attention to it at all.

16 Q. Other than that, you had no inclination at all she

17 might have had anything out of the ordinary?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Other than omlettes on Sunday, would she eat

20 normally?

21 A. Ate normally in front of me, yes.

22 Q. Ate normal meals. You never had to say anything

23 to her to encourage her to eat balanced meals?

24 A. No, I never had to encourage her, no.

25 Q. Okay. You never thought other than this omlette

___
38

1 that she had erratic eating habits?

2 A. I thought she had peculiar eating habits, nothing

3 I had to pay attention to. I mean the girl was hungry, I

4 let her eat the omlette.

5 Q. Okay. Ate a big omlette.

6 Did you take trips during the time you were here in

7 Florida, go on vacations?

8 A. Very, very rarely. Due to my work.

9 Q. Okay. If you did take a trip, you mentioned very

10 rare, where would you go?

11 A. I think one time we went to Disney World for the

12 day.

13 Q. Okay. Did she eat normally there?

14 A. Yes, she did.

15 Q. Okay. How long were you there, how many days?

16 A. Just for the day.

17 Q. All right. Any other trips that you can think

18 about?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And she had no suspicious behavior?

21 A. None whatsoever, sir.

22 Q. Other than drinking a gallon of iced tea and a

23 bunch of Cokes?

24 A. That's all I noticed.

25 Q. During that time when you were in Florida, was

___
39

1 Terry seeing another physician other than Dr. Igel?

2 A. She was seeing Dr. Prawer.

3 Q. Dr. Prawer was the family doctor?

4 A. He was, yes.

5 Q. And he saw Terry '87, '88, '89, I think?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For various minor --

8 A. Various -- I wouldn't say they were minor.

9 Q. Pardon?

10 A. I wouldn't say minor.

11 Q. What kind of things did she see Dr. Prawer for?

12 A. She had a lump on her breast.

13 Q. Outside lump, not an inside one?

14 A. Yeah, but it was still a lump. She had some warts

15 on her toe and she went to see him for light-headedness and

16 dizziness.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. And I believe irregular period.

19 Q. All right. You were also seeing Dr. Prawer, were

20 you not?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. In addition to being Terry's doctor, he was also

23 your doctor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what kind of things did you see him for?

___
40

1 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I object to those

2 kinds of things. Mr. Schiavo's health is not an

3 issue here.

4 MR. DEACON: He's right, I was just making --

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 Q. How often did you see Dr. Prawer?

7 A. Myself?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Not very often.

10 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with

11 Dr. Prawer about your wife's consumption of fluids?

12 A. I don't recall any conversations with him.

13 Q. So we can assume you didn't notice any irregular

14 eating habits on your wife that you didn't talk to

15 Dr. Prawer about that she ate?

16 A. Can you rephrase that?

17 Q. Did you talk to Dr. Prawer about how she ate?

18 A. Not that I can recall, no. I don't think I

19 mentioned it. I didn't think I needed to.

20 Q. I didn't say you did, I just asked you if you did.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Okay. Other than this huge omlette or the pizza

23 you mentioned, would she eat normally on Sunday?

24 A. We'd have a regular dinner, yeah. Sometime we'd

25 stop for lunch somewhere.

___
41

1 Q. Did your wife have any allergies?

2 A. Yes, she did.

3 Q. And what was that

4 A. She was allergic to Benadryl.

5 Q. Was she taking any medication?

6 MR. WOODWORTH: Excuse me, Your Honor, I object

7 to that. I thought -- I thought we covered this

8 territory, it's not relevant here.

9 THE COURT: Mr. Deacon, you want to be heard?

10 MR. DEACON: No, sir. I'm going through my notes.

11 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain.

12 Q. (BY MR. DEACON:) We have some photos of your

13 wife. When was the last time you saw her before her

14 collapse on February 25, 1990?

15 A. The last time I saw her?

16 Q. yes, sir.

17 A. The 24th.

18 Q. What time of day did you see her on the 24th?

19 A. Late at night.

20 Q. Okay. Would that be when you got off work?

21 A. It was a Saturday night, so probably 11:30, 12:00

22 by the time I got home.

23 Q. Where were you working at that time?

24 A. Agastino's Restaurant.

25 Q. What time did they close the restaurant?

___
42

1 A. Stopped serving 10:00, and if people were walking

2 in a quarter to ten, they serve them.

3 Q. You recall approximately what time you got home

4 that evening?

5 A. 11:30, 12:00.

6 Q. Your wife up?

7 A. I don't recall if she was up or not.

8 Q. Do you recall whether or not you had any

9 conversation with her that night?

10 A. I might have. I don't remember the conversation.

11 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to assume that you don't

12 recall anything out of the ordinary happening as far as your

13 wife, her condition or anything about her that evening?

14 A. Nothing out of the ordinary, no.

15 Q. She seemed fine to you; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was the last time you saw her before you

18 went to bed that night, in other words, when you, after you

19 got off from Agastino's?

20 A. The last time I saw her? Rephrase that question.

21 Q. That was a Saturday, was it, not the 24th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So, she did not work; is that correct?

24 A. No, she didn't.

25 Q. What time did you get up to go to work?

___
43

1 A. Being it was a Saturday, Friday night I probably

2 got home late, I usually don't get up until 10:00, 10:30.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not she was there

4 when you got up?

5 A. No, she usually did her food shopping when I was

6 sleeping.

7 Q. You don't recall seeing her that morning?

8 A. Not that early.

9 Q. All right. Up to the time of her collapse, what

10 was her condition as far as you can observe?

11 A. What do you mean by condition?

12 Q. Did she seem healthy, the same old Terry?

13 A. She seemed like my wife.

14 Q. Okay. Well, you know, did she seem healthy is

15 actually my question?

16 A. To me, yeah.

17 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, have you ever spoken with

18 Dr. Igel at all during the time Terry was seeing him?

19 A. No, I've never spoke to Dr. Igel.

20 Q. How would you describe your wife as far as her

21 activities, what kind of things would she like to do for

22 recreation and enjoyment?

23 A. Terry liked to spend time with her friends,

24 girlfriends, enjoyed arts and crafts, she liked being

25 outdoors.

___
44

1 Q. In one picture you have of her, I think the '87

2 one, she's in shorts or athletic shorts. Was she an

3 athletic kind of person?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did she exercise regularly?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did she play any sports?

8 A. Terry didn't know what sports was.

9 Q. Did she do any kind of, go to the spa or

10 gymnastics or aerobics or anything like that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Not at all. After she lost this weight in '86

13 or so, how did she feel about herself?

14 A. Terry felt great about herself.

15 Q. She like being thin?

16 A. yes, she did.

17 Q. Did she ever make any comments to you about liking

18 being thin?

19 A. No, she didn't make a comment. Just by seeing her

20 I can see she liked it.

21 Q. What was it that gave you that impression?

22 A. Just her overall being. First time she wore a

23 bikini.

24 Q. Okay. You used to go to the beach with her, you,

25 her, her mother? She liked her bikini and she liked to go

___
45

1 to the beach?

2 A. Yeah, she did. I was working.

3 Q. It's fair to say she was proud of her figure?

4 A. Yeah, she was proud of her figure, yes.

5 MR. DEACON: Thank you, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

7 MR. DEACON: That's all I have.

8 THE COURT: Any redirect?

9 MR. WOODWORTH: Just a couple.

10 THE COURT: Okay.

11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

12 BY MR. WOODWORTH:

13 Q. Michael, you've heard some testimony and some

14 references to the fact that throughout the course of the

15 proceedings that some of the people who worked with Terry,

16 one or two of them, noted that she went to the bathroom

17 after lunch everyday?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever take particular note of that while

20 your were married, while Terry and you were living together?

21 A. Of her going to the bathroom?

22 Q. After meals regularly?

23 A. Never took any particular note.

24 A. All right. Did you ever suspect in any way, even

25 to the slightest degree that Terry's irregularity, menstrual

___
46

1 irregularity that she went to see Dr. Prawer for -- strike

2 that -- that she went to see Dr. Igel for had anything

3 whatsoever to do with the way she ate?

4 MR. DEACON: Excuse me, Judge, I'll object to

5 that.

6 MR. WOODWORTH: Or didn't eat.

7 MR. DEACON: He's asking for a medical opinion

8 from this particular witness.

9 THE COURT: He asked if he suspected.

10 MR. DEACON: Her irregularity and menstruation

11 habits were connected.

12 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm sorry, what's the objection?

13 MR. DEACON: The objection is asking for a medical

14 opinion from this witness.

15 MR. WOODWORTH: Wait a minute, Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: No speeches. Overrule the objection.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOODWORTH:) Did you ever have the

18 slightest hint from any source whatsoever that there might

19 be any kind of a connection between what Terry was or wasn't

20 eating or her eating habits, peculiar or not, and her

21 menstrual irregularity?

22 A. I had no clue at all.

23 Q. Did Dr. Igel or any of Dr. Igel's nurses,

24 personnel ever, to your knowledge, call Terry and tell her

25 that there might be a connection?

___
47

1 A. No.

2 Q. Or you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. That there might be a connection?

5 A. No.

6 Q. There is, in the Humana Northside, is that right,

7 the hospital where she was taken right after her collapse,

8 some records indicating that for a couple weeks somebody in

9 the family said she wasn't feeling so hot or wasn't feeling

10 too good, do you have any recollection of her not feeling

11 too good for a couple weeks before this happened?

12 A. The recollection I had was she had a real bad

13 vaginal infection.

14 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. Thanks.

15 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Deacon?

16 MR. DEACON: Oh, no, sir.

17 THE COURT: Thank you.

18 MR. WOODWORTH: That's all, Your Honor.

19 May we have a moment?

20

21 (THEREUPON, THE PORTION ORDERED TO BE TRANSCRIBED WAS

22 CONCLUDED.)

23 * * * * * * *

24

25

___
48

1 STATE OF FLORIDA)

2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS)

3 I, JOANNE GERBINO, Court Reporter in and for the Sixth

4 Judicial Circuit of the State of Florida.

5 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing proceedings were

6 had at the time and place set forth in the caption thereof;

7 that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the

8 said proceedings, and that the foregoing pages, numbered 1

9 through 48, inclusive, constitute a true and correct

10 transcription of my said stenographic report.

11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto affixed my official

12 signature this 29th day of March, 1999, at Clearwater,

13 Pinellas County, Florida.

14

15
<signed>
16 ------------------------------
JOANNE GERBINO
17 Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit,
18 State of Florida.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

I figured it out.

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY

------------------------------
:
IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF :
THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,:
Incompetent. :
:
-------------------------------
:
ROBERT AND MARY SCHINDLER, :
:
Petitioners, :
vs. : Case No. 90-2908-GD
:
MICHAEL SCHIAVO as Guardian of:
the Person of THERESA MARIE :
SCHIAVO, :
:
Respondent. :
:
------------------------------

DEPOSITION OF: MICHAEL SCHIAVO

TAKEN: Pursuant to Notice
Instance of Petitioners

DATE: November 19, 1993

TIME: Commencing at 1:20 p.m.

PLACE: Steven Nilsson, Esquire
2471 McMullen Booth
Oakbrook Plaza
Suite 308
Clearwater, Florida

BEFORE: DEVERAH BIANCO
Stenographic Court Reporter
and Notary Public - State
of Florida at Large

___

APPEARANCES

STEVEN NILSSON, ESQUIRE
2471 McMullen Booth
Oakbrook Plaza
Suite 308
Clearwater, Florida

Attorney for Petitioners

JAMES SHEEHAN, ESQUIRE
341 3rd Street South
St. Petersburg, Florida 33701

Attorney for Respondent

ALSO PRESENT: Terese Malley
Robert Schindler

INDEX
Page

Direct Examination by Mr. Sheehan 3
Cross-Examination by Mr. Nilsson 84
Redirect Examination by Mr. Sheehan 86
Stipulations 88
Deponent's Signature Page and Errata 89
Court Reporter's Certification Page 90

___
3

1 MICHAEL SCHIAVO,

2 the Deponent herein, having been first duly sworn, was

3 examined and testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

6 Q Would you state your name for the record, please?

7 A Michael Schiavo.

8 Q And, Mr. Schiavo, where do you presently reside?

9 A 12190 66th Avenue North.

10 Q And is that a --

11 A Seminole. It's a house. I live with my parents.

12 Q Are you presently -- you're married to Terry

13 Schiavo, correct?

14 A Yes, I am.

15 Q Are you presently involved in a romantic

16 relationship with anyone?

17 A Yes, I am.

18 Q And who is that?

19 MR. NILSSON: I'll instruct the witness not to

20 answer that in terms of identification. If you have

21 other questions about the relationship, though,

22 please ask.

23 MR. SHEEHAN: What is the basis?

24 MR. NILSSON: Just right of privacy.

25 MR. SHEEHAN: Whose right of privacy?

___
4

1 MR. NILSSON: That individual's.

2 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

3 Q Okay. Can you at least tell me her first name?

4 MR. NILSSON: I'm going to instruct the witness

5 not to answer that either, but if you have questions

6 about the relationship, other than her name, ask him

7 and they'll be answered.

8 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

9 Q Okay. Tell me about the relationship. How long

10 has it been going on?

11 MR. NILSSON: Objection.

12 BY THE DEPONENT:

13 A We just met approximately three months ago.

14 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

15 Q How often do you see each other?

16 A Weekends, once twice during the week.

17 Q Do you have any future plans involving this

18 person that you're seeing?

19 A We just met.

20 Q Do you have any future involving this person?

21 What do you anticipate?

22 A At the present I have no idea.

23 Q Are you involved in an intimate relationship with

24 this person?

25 A Yes, I am.

___
5

1 Q Does this person reside with you --

2 A No.

3 Q -- or does she have her own apartment or house?

4 A She resides by herself.

5 Q Do you stay at her place?

6 MR. NILSSON: Has he ever stayed at her place

7 overnight? Is that what you're asking?

8 MR. SHEEHAN: Yes.

9 BY THE DEPONENT:

10 A Yes.

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q Do you stay there often?

13 A No

14 Q Can you tell me approximately how often you stay

15 there.

16 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Vague. Do you mean how

17 often he spends the night there?

18 MR. SHEEHAN: Uh-huh.

19 BY THE DEPONENT:

20 A Twice a week maybe.

21 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

22 Q How old are you?

23 A I'm sorry?

24 Q How old are you?

25 A Thirty.

___
6

1 Q How old is your companion?

2 A Twenty-eight.

3 Q Is this the first relationship that you've been

4 involved in since your wife has been in a coma?

5 A No.

6 Q How many other relationships have you been

7 involved in?

8 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Vague and ambiguous as

9 to what the relationship is.

10 MR. SHEEHAN: Romantic.

11 MR. NILSSON: Same objection. Vague and

12 ambiguous.

13 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

14 Q You can answer.

15 BY THE DEPONENT:

16 A I was in one other relationship.

17 Q Was this with a person named Cindy?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How long did that relationship last?

20 A Yes. About eight months, approximately, give or

21 take.

22 Q Was it an intimate relationship?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did you and Cindy ever live together?

25 A No.

___
7

1 Q Is it true that you and Cindy shared adjoining

2 apartments?

3 A No

4 Q When you become involved in these relationships

5 -- the two relationships that you are describing -- one

6 lasted eight months. Was it an exclusive relationship,

7 the one with Cindy?

8 A What do you mean by exclusive?

9 Q I mean was she the only person you were seeing at

10 the time?

11 A Yes.

12 MR. NILSSON: Objection, other than his wife

13 Terry, you mean.

14 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

15 Q Other than his wife Terry.

16 A Other than my wife Terry, yes, she was the only

17 one.

18 Q And did you see her, like, on weekends like your

19 present relationship?

20 A Yes.

21 Q What -- you've been involved in a relationship

22 for eight months and now you are going in another one for

23 three months, what is your anticipation where the

24 relationships are going to go or do you think about it at

25 all?

___
8

1 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad, vague and

2 ambiguous. Do the best you can.

3 BY THE DEPONENT:

4 A I don't anticipate anything.

5 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

6 Q Do you anticipate that if the relationship

7 continues that you may eventually want to divorce Terry

8 and remarry?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Asks for speculation.

10 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

11 Q You can answer.

12 MR. NILSSON: Just a second. If you --

13 BY THE DEPONENT:

14 A I have no plans of abandoning Terry.

15 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

16 Q My question is not whether you have any plans of

17 abandoning Terry. My question is: Do you anticipate, if

18 this relationship continues, that at some time you may

19 want to divorce Terry and remarry? That was my question.

20 Q What is your understanding of your wife's present

21 medical condition?

22 A As far as overall?

23 Q Overall.

24 A Terry, right now, is in stable condition. She

___
9

1 has no skin problems. She gets to the doctor regularly.

2 Q Now --

3 MR. NILSSON: Wait. Please give the witness a

4 chance to finish the question. And I want to make

5 some objections to the question right now. The

6 question is overly broad and assumes this witness is

7 qualified to state every aspect of her medical

8 condition.

9 Please let him finish his answer. You asked a

10 question that has a whole lot of different aspects to

11 it in terms of her condition, mental condition,

12 physical condition. And I would appreciate it if you

13 would let him finish the answer.

14 MR. SHEEHAN: I thought he was finished.

15 BY THE DEPONENT:

16 A Could you repeat the question again now?

17 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

18 Q I was asking you to tell me what her present

19 medical condition was. You indicated that she was stable,

20 that she had no skin problems, that she was seeing a

21 doctor regularly and your attorney object at that point.

22 Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

23 MR. NILSSON: Same objection.

24 BY THE DEPONENT:

25 A She's well taken care of at the present time.

___
10

1 That's all I can think of right now. Depends on what else

2 you'd like to know.

3 Q What is your -- or how do you perceive your

4 responsibility as far as her medical treatment?

5 A Rephrase your question, please.

6 Q Well, my question is: What do you perceive your

7 responsibility as as her guardian with regard to her

8 medical treatment?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection to the extent requires a

10 legal analysis as to what his legal responsibility

11 is. To the extent you have some understanding of

12 what your perceive your responsibility to be, you

13 know, you can answer that, if you can.

14 MR. SHEEHAN: Before you answer it, let me just

15 say that your objections are preserved, other than to

16 the form of the question. If you want to object to

17 every question, it's certainly your right, but it's

18 unnecessary to do.

19 MR. NILSSON: Jim, I know exactly what that rule

20 says. I've certainly argued it many times in trial.

21 And if I feel like I need to make an objection other

22 than relevancy, I feel that I am entitled --

23 MR. SHEEHAN: I will stipulate that your

24 objections are preserved.

25 MR. NILSSON: Well, I'll still make my objections

___
11

1 where I think they're appropriate. I appreciate the

2 offer, though.

3 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay.

4 MR. NILSSON: Well, you're asking him for,

5 basically a legal conclusion.

6 MR. SHEEHAN: No, I'm asking him for his

7 perception of what, and that is a fact question, what

8 he perceives his job is as far as her medical

9 treatment.

10 MR. NILSSON: I want to make it clear you're not

11 asking for a legal analysis?

12 MR. SHEEHAN: Right.

13 MR. NILSSON: That's what my objection was

14 designed to do.

15 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

16 Q You can answer.

17 A My job is to take care of Terry and meet all of

18 her medical needs, to make decisions based on what Terry

19 would want. I'm still vague on your question of what you

20 would want out of that question.

21 Q How often do you meet with the doctor? Do you

22 meet with him on a regular basis?

23 A Terry goes every two months, unless there is

24 something else that comes up, and we take her over there.

25 Q Do you, yourself, meet with the doctor?

___
12

1 A Yes, I do.

2 Q Do you discuss with him such things as what type

3 of treatment he's providing, what type of medication he's

4 providing?

5 A Yes, I do.

6 Q Do you give him direction as to what steps he

7 should take or what things he should or shouldn't do in

8 the future?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Compound. Answer to

10 the best of your ability.

11 BY THE DEPONENT:

12 A I don't tell the doctor what to do. He's gone to

13 school for that.

14 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

15 Q Uh-huh. Have you taken any steps or given any

16 direction to the doctor or the nursing home, and I'm

17 particularly concerned with the area of July and August of

18 this year, with regard to your wife's care or treatment/

19 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad. Vague

20 and ambiguous. If you can answer it, do so to the

21 best of your ability. Meaning what? Is there

22 something specific you would like to --

23 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

24 Q You know, unfortunately, this is a discovery

25 deposition and the purpose of my questions is to find out

___
13

1 what. I can give you a little factual scenario and see if

2 that will help you?

3 A I'm -- I'm --

4 Q See if that will help you in answering the

5 question. We were contacted -- my office was contacted by

6 the nursing home and they indicated that something had

7 changed as far as the treatment of Terry in July and

8 August and the change had something to do with the

9 direction that you had made, either to the nursing home or

10 to the doctor.

11 My question to you is: Did you -- did you change

12 any directions that you had given to the nursing home or

13 to the doctor prior to that or did you do anything that

14 you're aware of?

15 A Yes.

16 MR. NILSSON: Let me make my objections for the

17 record again. The question is improper. It's a

18 summary. It's a portion of testimony by the person

19 asking the question. It's compound. If you have

20 information that you think answers the question,

21 state it.

22 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

23 Q You said yes?

24 A Yes.

25 Q What did you do or what did you not do?

___
14

1 A I put a -- after speaking with my doctor, I gave

2 an order not to treat a bladder infection Terry had.

3 Q Who was the doctor you spoke with?

4 A Mulroy.

5 Q And Mulroy is your doctor or Terry's doctor?

6 A Terry's doctor.

7 Q Tell me about the conversation you had with

8 Mulroy.

9 A I talked to him about what he felt Terry's future

10 was. And he told me that Terry is basically going to be

11 like this for the rest of her life and I was trying to

12 make decisions on what Terry would want.

13 Q What was her bladder condition?

14 A She had UTI.

15 Q Excuse me?

16 A She had a UTI.

17 Q What is that?

18 A Urinary tract infection.

19 Q What -- did the doctor tell you what the

20 treatment for that would be?

21 A Antibiotic usually.

22 Q And did he tell you what would occur if you

23 failed to treat that infection.

24 A Yes.

25 Q What did he tell you?

___
15

1 A That sometimes urinary tract infections will turn

2 to sepsis.

3 Q And sepsis is what?

4 A And infection throughout the body.

5 Q And what would the result of untreated sepsis be

6 to the patient?

7 A The patient would pass on.

8 Q So when you made the decision not to treat

9 Terry's bladder infection you, in effect, were taking a

10 decision to allow her to pass on?

11 A I was making a decision on what Terry would want.

12 Q I don't think you answered my question. Could

13 you repeat the question?

14 (Whereupon, the pertinent portion of the Record was read

15 back by the Court Reporter.)

16 MR. NILSSON: Let me make an objection that that

17 question seeks a medical opinion, and there's been no

18 testimony that this person's qualified to give a

19 medical opinion that if, in fact, the bladder

20 infection weren't treated, that Terry would die.

21 Answer to the best of your ability.

22 BY THE DEPONENT:

23 A That's what would happen. That's what would

24 happen.

25 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

___
16

1 Q Has the bladder condition been treated?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And was -- what was the reason that the bladder

4 condition was treated?

5 A Sable Palms Nursing Home said they could not do

6 that by some Florida law which wasn't stated.

7 Q But you didn't change your opinion or your

8 decision to not treat the bladder condition?

9 A We did change it.

10 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Asked and answer.

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q Correct?

13 A Repeat your question.

14 Q You did not change your decision not to treat the

15 bladder condition, correct?

16 A I had to change my decision.

17 Q Sable Palms changed it for you?

18 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Arguing with the

19 witness. He said he had to change it based on what

20 Sable Palms position was.

21 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

22 Q Okay. Is there any reason that you would not

23 make the same decision that you previously made if the

24 problem came up again?

25 A Repeat your question again, your losing me here.

___
17

1 Q Let me be more specific. If you're wife

2 developed another condition that could result in her

3 death, is there any reason that you would not take the

4 position that you're not going to treat that condition and

5 you're going to instruct the doctor not to treat that

6 condition?

7 A I wouldn't instruct anybody, no.

8 Q You instructed the doctor not to treat the

9 bladder condition, correct?

10 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Vague. You're talking

11 about the matter he's already told you about or are

12 you speculating --

13 MR. SHEEHAN: Right, I'm going back to --

14 MR. NILSSON: You're trying to summarize what he

15 already testified to.

16 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm not trying to summarize. I'm

17 asking a question.

18 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

19 Q You did instruct the doctor not to treat her

20 bladder condition correct?

21 A Uh-huh, yes.

22 Q If a similar condition arose in the future,

23 would you do the same thing?

24 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Asked and answered. He

25 just told you he wouldn't instruct anybody to do

___
18

1 anything.

2 MR. SHEEHAN: I don't think he did.

3 BY THE DEPONENT:

4 A I'm thinking.

5 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

6 Q Take your time.

7 A I probably wouldn't instruct the doctor to do it.

8 Q So you've changed your opinion?

9 A Sort of, yeah.

10 Q Why have you changed your opinion?

11 A Because evidently there is a law out there that

12 says I can't do it.

13 Q Is that the only reason?

14 A Basically, maybe.

15 MR. NILSSON: Move to strike the witness'

16 statement, saying there being a law that says he

17 couldn't do it. The witness is not qualified to say

18 what the law is.

19 MR. SHEEHAN: He's qualified to say what his

20 reasons are. What the law is something that will be

21 decided by the court.

22 MR. NILSSON: I move to strike his statement as

23 to there being a law that prohibits it. I'm not

24 aware of it. You're not aware of it. And this

25 witness has not been shown to be qualified to make

___
19

1 the statement about a law that doesn't exist.

2 MR. SHEEHAN: He's talking about his perception.

3 He's qualified to state what his reasons are and what

4 his perceptions are. The law will take care of

5 itself.

6 MR. NILSSON: But none the less, I can move to

7 strike his statement of what the law is. I've done

8 it.

9 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

10 Q What you're telling me is, is that there is

11 nothing in your belief or feelings that have changed. The

12 only thing that has changed is the fact that you perceived

13 the law prevents you to do what you intended to do?

14 A Correct.

15 Q Okay. Are you presently employed?

16 A No, I'm not.

17 Q What was the last job that you held?

18 A I worked for, Augustinos Restaurant.

19 Q When was that, do you know?

20 A I've been gone from there for four years now.

21 Q And what did you do at Augustinos?

22 A I was the manager.

23 Q What -- why did you leave?

24 A 'Cause of Terry.

25 Q And you haven't worked in four years?

___
20

1 A Nope. No.

2 Q Have you looked for work?

3 A No, I go to school.

4 Q Where do you go to school?

5 A St. Pete J.C.

6 Q How long have you been going to school?

7 A Two, almost two and-a-half years now.

8 Q What subjects or what course of study are you

9 doing?

10 A Medical.

11 Q Is that nursing school?

12 A Um, I just graduated EMT school, and I'm starting

13 in August of '94, I'm going into the respiratory program.

14 Q What do you anticipate getting your degree in,

15 and what profession do you anticipate --

16 A Respiratory therapy.

17 Q Where did you work before Augustinos?

18 A Feather Sound Country Club.

19 Q What do you do there?

20 A I was the assistant food and beverage manager.

21 Q How long did you work at Augustinos?

22 A Three years, maybe; two and-a-half years, three

23 years.

24 Q Did you leave right after Terry went into a coma?

25 A Shortly after, yes.

___
21

1 Q And how long did you work at Feather Sound?

2 A A month.

3 Q What happened there?

4 A I was offered the job at Augustinos.

5 Q Where did you work before Feather Sound?

6 A I opened the Columbia at the pier.

7 Q You say you opened it, were you the manager of

8 the Columbia?

9 A I was one of the managers.

10 Q How long did you work there?

11 A Approximately a year and-a-half.

12 Q What was your reason for leaving there?

13 A Lots of hours, wasn't able to see Terry.

14 Q So you quit?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q And before the Columbia?

17 A I worked for Dolphin Beach Resort for a couple of

18 weeks.

19 Q And what did you do there?

20 A Food and beverage manager.

21 Q How long did you work there?

22 A About a month or so.

23 Q And what was your reason for leaving?

24 A I was offered the job at the Columbia.

25 Q Prior to the Dolphin Beach?

___
22

1 A I'm sorry.

2 Q Prior to the Dolphin Beach?

3 A I worked for Breckenridge Resort and Hotel.

4 Q Out on St. Pete Beach?

5 A Yes.

6 MR. NILSSON: Can we have a time frame at this

7 point?

8 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

9 Q What year was that?

10 A Um, trying to think when I moved there. 1986,

11 approximately '86, '87, something like that.

12 Q Was that your first job in Florida?

13 A No.

14 Q What was your first job?

15 A Olga's Kitchen.

16 Q What did you do there?

17 A Manager.

18 Q How long did you work there?

19 A Year.

20 Q And what was your reason for leaving?

21 A I believe I went to the Breckenridge.

22 Q So you were offered the job at the Breckenridge

23 and you left?

24 A I'm not very sure how that happened. I think

25 that's the way it worked.

___
23

1 Q And you worked at Breckenridge for how long?

2 A I was there for a while, a year and-a-half.

3 Q And your reason for leaving the Breckenridge?

4 A They hired a management company. They brought

5 their own people in.

6 Q Now, when you left Augustinos to take care of

7 Terry, what -- was there a need at that time for you to be

8 a caretaker full time?

9 A My own personal need, yes.

10 Q What was happening at that time?

11 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad. Vague

12 and ambiguous in politics, in the world, what?

13 BY MR. SHEEHAND:

14 Q With the treatment of your wife.

15 A Terry was basically still on life supports when I

16 left Augustinos.

17 Q Was she at home? Was she in the hospital?

18 A No, she was still in the hospital.

19 Q What hospital was she in?

20 A Human Northside.

21 Q How long was she at Humana Northside?

22 A She was there for a good two and-a-half, three

23 months.

24 Q How long after she left Humana Northside did you

25 take her to California?

___
24

1 A Had to be maybe -- I don't know, don't hold me to

2 dates or times -- six, eight months later.

3 Q And what was the purpose of taking her to

4 California?

5 A There was some experimental surgery that I heard

6 about.

7 Q Do you remember the doctor you went to see out

8 there?

9 A Doctor Yoshio Hosobuchi.

10 MR. NILSSON: Can you spell that name?

11 THE DEPONENT: If I had a piece of paper I can.

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q Prior to her -- to Terry going to see Doctor

14 Hosobuchi, who was her main treating physician here?

15 A At that time?

16 Q Yeah.

17 A Before she left it was -- well, there was so

18 many. She had Doctor Shamir Shaw was still seeing her

19 when she was at College Harbor.

20 Q She didn't have, like, one main treating

21 physician?

22 A Doctor Barras, David Barras would probably be --

23 she went to Bayfront.

24 Q Does Doctor Barras still see her?

25 A No.

___
25

1 Q Is there a reason that he doesn't see her

2 anymore?

3 A I think his last words were, awhile ago, that

4 there is nothing more he could do for her.

5 Q Okay. Tell me about Doctor Hosobuchi and his

6 treatment of Terry?

7 A Well, the basic thing was we took her to

8 California. He had some experimental stimulators that he

9 was placing in peoples' heads. There were some people

10 that woke up.

11 It's a whole protocol on it. I don't have it

12 with me. But it would be very experimental. He put it

13 in. He did some testing. There was no evidence of it

14 working with Terry.

15 The only thing it would do, when he turned it up

16 passed a certain point Terry would just sit up, which was

17 just motor response. She would just get real bright eyed

18 because things were being stimulated. He wasn't thrilled

19 about it because he didn't see any positive signs.

20 Q Was -- did he implant anything into her? Did he

21 put anything in her head that remained?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Are they still?

24 A Yes.

25 Q What are they?

___
26

1 A Electrodes. They're platinum electrodes.

2 Q Did he suggest any future treatment that was

3 experimental --

4 A Treatment for what?

5 Q -- in California. Diagnostic testing, anything

6 of that nature?

7 A No. When Doctor Yingling was here, he came out

8 and, basically, if it didn't work within --

9 MR. NILSSON: The question is with whoever the

10 doctor was in California.

11 MR. SHEEHAN: Is there an objection? He's

12 answering the question.

13 MR. NILSSON: I'm going to ask the witness to be

14 responsive. You're asking about a different doctor

15 than Yingling. Your question was about the doctor in

16 California.

17 MR. SHEEHAN: I think his answer is responsive to

18 my question. Just the fact that there is another

19 doctor involved, let him answer.

20 MR. NILSSON: I want the witness to be responsive

21 to the question. If you're asking about the doctor

22 in California, that's what I want the witness to tell

23 you about to the extent he has knowledge.

24 MR. SHEEHAN: If he's not responding to my

25 question, I think that's my objection.

___
27

1 MR. NILSSON: Well, it's my objection.

2 MR. SHEEHAN: We can do this all day.

3 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

4 Q You started to --

5 A Repeat your question.

6 Q My question was: Was there a suggestion of

7 further diagnostic testing or procedures after the

8 treatment by Doctor Hosobuchi in California?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad. Vague

10 and ambiguous.

11 BY THE DEPONENT:

12 A As far as I can remember --

13 MR. NILSSON: Are you talking about a suggestion

14 by that doctor in California? Jim, I don't mean to

15 be funny with you, but there's lots of doctors. Are

16 you asking about all the doctors; any treatment after

17 that?

18 MR. SHEEHAN: I'll tell you what -- I will tell

19 you what, if you want to play this game, I'm going to

20 ask him about Doctor Hosobuchi, and then my next

21 question is going to be about Doctor Yingling.

22 Eventually, we're going to get to it.

23 MR. NILSSON: Okay. That's fine. But for you to

24 ask any suggestion of further analysis after some

25 event in California when that could have happened a

___
28

1 dozen times, to me, it's overly broad, vague and

2 ambiguous.

3 Now, if you got the doctor in California and want

4 to know what the doctor said, ask him that question

5 and if you don't, I'm going to object.

6 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

7 Q Did Doctor Hosobuchi, after he saw Terry,

8 recommend any further diagnostic procedures?

9 A He recommended that Doctor Yingling would be

10 doing it.

11 Q So did she see Doctor Yingling?

12 A She -- Doctor Yingling came out here, I believe,

13 a year later.

14 Q And that was at the suggestion of Doctor

15 Hosobuchi?

16 A That, I have no idea.

17 Q Okay. What did Doctor Yingling say or do, to

18 your knowledge?

19 A He came out -- Terry was at Mediplex -- he came

20 out and did some testing, and he needed a CP-900 machine

21 or something from Shands, and it wasn't available, and he

22 said it wasn't no big deal.

23 He told me he had -- he didn't see any evident

24 sign that the stimulator was working, did some tests with

25 Terry. Nothing was new with her from the time he had last

___
29

1 seen her. And that was basically it. We took him out to

2 dinner and he had loads of wine and that was it. He

3 spilled it all over our couch.

4 Q Other than the Doctor Hosobuchi and Doctor

5 Yingling -- was Doctor Yingling also from California?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And he was somebody that Doctor Hosobuchi

8 suggested see Terry?

9 A He was Hosobuchi's assistant.

10 Q Has she seen any other experts since that time?

11 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad and

12 ambiguous.

13 BY THE DEPONENT:

14 A What type of experts?

15 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

16 Q Since Doctor Yingling saw her, what physicians

17 have seen her?

18 A She's seen Doctor Lyles.

19 Q And who is Doctor Lyles?

20 A He's a physiatrist -- I don't know how to say

21 that --

22 Q Physiatrist?

23 A Yeah -- at Health South. She has seen Doctor

24 Becker for gastrostomy problems. Doctor Mina Chang for

25 gynecology. Doctor Porter for her teeth. Doctor Harrison

___
30

1 for neurology. Doctor Mulroy.

2 Q What is Mulroy's specialty?

3 A He's an internist. Doctor Joan Brown,

4 podiatrist. Um, there is a GI doctor and I can't remember

5 his name. I'm sure there is a couple of other doctors

6 she's seen, I just can't remember their names.

7 Q Okay. How often does Doctor Harrison see her, do

8 you know?

9 A He's seen her --

10 MR. NILSSON: You're talking right now, as we

11 sit?

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q Yeah. I mean does he see her on a regular basis

14 now?

15 A No.

16 Q When was the last time he saw her?

17 A Yesterday.

18 Q When was the last time before that?

19 A She didn't.

20 Q So Doctor Harrison saw her for the first time

21 yesterday?

22 A Yes, on the advice of Doctor Lyles to go see her

23 or him.

24 Q Okay. When was the last time Terry had seen a

25 neurologist?

___
31

1 A I'd have to look up some records. I don't

2 remember.

3 Q Has it been years?

4 A No, I don't think it's been years.

5 Q Has a neurologist seen her since Doctor Yingling

6 saw her?

7 A I don't recall.

8 Q Have any diagnostic tests been performed since

9 Doctor Yingling saw Terry?

10 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad,

11 ambiguous. You mean of the neurology strain?

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q Okay. Of a neurology strain.

14 A I don't recall. There could have been. I don't

15 recall.

16 Q Now, you said Doctor Lyles had referred Terry to

17 Doctor Harrison?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 Q And when did Doctor Lyles suggest that Terry see

20 Doctor Harrison?

21 A We had Terry over there last week, I believe.

22 And he suggested it then.

23 Q What was the purpose of bringing Terry to see

24 Doctor Lyles last week?

25 A We -- to get Theresa off medication called

___
32

1 Tegratol, which is for seizures.

2 Q Who put her on Tegratol?

3 A Doctor Hosobuchi.

4 Q So she had been on Tegratol for quite awhile?

5 A Uh-huh, yes.

6 Q And was it your decision that you wanted to have

7 her taken off the medication?

8 A It was my and Doctor Lyle's decision.

9 Q Well, you indicated that the purpose of taking

10 her to Doctor Lyles was to have her taken off Tegratol?

11 A No, I didn't say that.

12 Q What was the purpose of taking her to Doctor

13 Lyles?

14 A 'Cause he was looking at her hip.

15 Q Uh-huh. What happened to her hip?

16 A It was starting to turn out and turned out it was

17 just tone; they were trying to correct the problem.

18 Q So the purpose of taking her to see Doctor Lyles

19 was really for treatment of her hip?

20 A Uh-huh.

21 Q And at that time --

22 A He -- go ahead.

23 Q -- he suggest that you take her off Tegratol?

24 A The Tegratol subject came up.

25 Q How did it come up?

___
33

1 A He had seen her before and Terry's Tegratol level

2 has been real high and he was kind of concerned because

3 she was lethargic. And I mentioned about the Tegratol and

4 she's still real lethargic. He told me the best thing for

5 us to do was take her over to Doctor Harrison.

6 Q What did Doctor Harrison say?

7 A That there is no seizure activity and probably

8 wouldn't present a problem taking her off that.

9 MR. NILSSON: Are you asking for everything

10 Doctor Harrison said to him?

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q Yeah.

13 A Doctor Harrison sent to me, when the EEG was

14 done, sat me down in the office and he says that her EEG

15 is so depressed and why do you let her live. And he said

16 to me that this woman died four years ago, and it's such a

17 tragic thing. And he said to me, I noticed you've taken

18 her to Largo Medical Center for some treatments and he

19 says that next time she gets an infection, not to treat

20 it.

21 And then we started talking about -- he said,

22 remove the feeding tube. And I told him I couldn't do

23 that to Terry. And then he says -- then he said to me,

24 well --

25 Q Go ahead.

___
34

1 A There is no seizure activity, so it wouldn't

2 present a problem of taking her off the Tegratol.

3 Q Was it Doctor Harrison's suggestion the feeding

4 tube be removed?

5 A It wasn't a suggestion, it was just talk. He

6 just mentioned it.

7 Q How did he mention it? What did he say?

8 A He was talking about removing the feeding tubes,

9 and I said I couldn't do that to Terry.

10 Q Was this the first -- this was the first time she

11 had seen Doctor Harrison?

12 A Yes, it was.

13 Q Do you know Doctor Harrison at all?

14 A No, I do not.

15 Q Other than a referral from Doctor Lyles?

16 A Just a referral from Doctor Lyles.

17 Q The things that Doctor Harrison said to you

18 yesterday, have they ever been said to you by another

19 physician?

20 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad and vague.

21 Compound. Ambiguous. Is there any aspect of what

22 was said of the many things that you are curious

23 about?

24 MR. SHEEHAN: He just testified that the doctor

25 said her EEG is so depressed, why do you let her

___
35

1 live. This woman died four years ago. Next time she

2 has an infection, don't treat it. There is no

3 seizure activity. Those were the things he testified

4 to.

5 I asked him the things that the doctor told you,

6 has any other physician ever told you that.

7 MR. NILSSON: Jim, let me make my objection to

8 you. There are a whole lot of things that Harrison

9 said, not just the things you just stated, those were

10 stated, but many other things, too.

11 If you have a particular point of interest, such

12 as taking the feeding tube or lack of EEG response,

13 or any of those things, why don't you just ask him

14 that specifically. And ask him if any of the other

15 doctors have discussed those points with him as

16 opposed to giving him ten unknown things to try --

17 given by all the doctors, you know, it's just overly

18 broad. That's my objection.

19 Let the question stand if you want, subject to my

20 objection. He can do the best he can to answer.

21 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

22 Q Do you understand my question?

23 A I don't recall speaking of it with any other

24 doctor.

25 Q So when you made the decision on your own not to

___
36

1 treat or instructed the doctor not to treat Terry's

2 infection -- her bladder infection, no physician had made

3 the statements that Doctor Harrison had made to you at

4 that time, did they?

5 MR. NILSSON: You're going not from this

6 conversation with Harrison, but back to a time when

7 he had testified previous about don't treat the

8 bladder infection. You're asking if he had a

9 conversation with a doctor about that?

10 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm asking him if any physician

11 made the statements that Harrison made to him prior

12 to the time that he made the decision not to treat

13 Terry's bladder infection.

14 MR. NILSSON: Well, I agree that was your

15 question, and I had four or five different objections

16 I made to it, all of which I think are proper. You

17 know, and I think -- I really think the witness was

18 mislead. If you have a specific question -- if you

19 want to ask about the --

20 MR. SHEEHAN: That was my question.

21 MR. NILSSON: I have the same objection. Overly

22 broad. It's vague. It's ambiguous. It's compound.

23 It covers a lot of different things that we talked

24 about Harrison, none of which this witness can hold

25 in his mind for one moment and give you a direct

___
37

1 response. And it's very unfair to this witness.

2 If you want to ask about prior treatment, if he

3 ever talked to a doctor about it, ask him that, Jim,

4 and he'll tell you. But, you know, to throw

5 everything in one bag and hope he picks the right

6 thing, I think is unfair and improper.

7 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

8 Q Let me see if we can start over again in all

9 fairness to the witness.

10 Prior to your making -- you know, the decision

11 that we're talking about, the decision that you made not

12 to treat your wife's bladder infection --

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q Okay?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Prior to your making that decision, had any

17 physician ever suggested to you that if she has an

18 infection in the future, that you don't treat it or that

19 you allow her to die?

20 MR. NILSSON: Compound.

21 BY THE DEPONENT:

22 A Well, I went and talked to Doctor Mulroy about

23 it.

24 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

25 Q And what was Doctor Mulroy's advice to you, if

___
38

1 any?

2 A Not to treat the infection.

3 Q Okay. That was his advice?

4 A Uh-huh.

5 Q So your answer is yes, Doctor Mulroy had advised

6 you the same as Doctor Harrison advised you?

7 A (Nodding affirmatively.)

8 MR. NILSSON: Objection.

9 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

10 Q As to not treating the infection?

11 MR. SHEEHAN: How's that? Strike the question.

12 I'd like to take a little break at this point.

13 MR. NILSSON: That's fine.

14 (Whereupon, there was a short recess held.)

15 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

16 Q Do you know if your wife, Terry, has a living

17 will?

18 A No.

19 Q No, she doesn't?

20 A She doesn't have a living will.

21 Q When you say that you've taken some action based

22 on what she would have wanted, is that based on what you

23 think she would have wanted?

24 A It's based on what she would want.

25 Q How do you determine what she would want?

___
39

1 A She was my wife. I lived with her. We shared

2 things. We shared a bed. We shared our thoughts. And

3 one incident in particular, a few years back when her

4 grandmother was -- Grandmother Shindler -- she was in and

5 out of a coma. She was in. She was out. She was real

6 sick. And we'd go see her, and we had a vacation planned,

7 to come here to Florida; myself, my brother and my wife.

8 So when we left, her grandmother was still

9 critical. We left, got on the train, and we had this

10 conversation about her grandmother and things like that.

11 And we started talking about her uncle, her uncle Fred,

12 who had lost his wife and child tragically in a train

13 wreck. And he was on an emotional roller coaster. He was

14 a very distraught person, agreeably, after losing your

15 wife and child on a train wreck.

16 And, I guess, I believe he went out one night had

17 a few drinks and wrapped his car around a telephone pole.

18 And her uncle was in a coma for awhile and emerged a man

19 that she never knew anymore. He was disabled. He can't

20 walk. He can't do things for himself. His kids are his

21 Power of Attorney now. We got into discussion about that

22 and she said to me, I would never want to live like that.

23 I would want to just die.

24 Q So what you're saying is from that conversation,

25 you have determined that you know what she would want in

___
40

1 these circumstances?

2 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Argumentative.

3 Misstates the testimony which was other things beyond

4 that conversation, but that was the main thing.

5 BY THE DEPONENT:

6 A I'm sorry?

7 MR. SHEEHAN: Can you repeat the question.

8 (Whereupon, the pertinent portion of the Record was read

9 back by the Court Reporter.)

10 BY THE DEPONENT:

11 A Yes.

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q And you think that she would have wanted to die?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Have you made the statement that at any time, to

16 the Schindler's or -- to the Schindler's, that you didn't

17 want Terry to come out of the coma because it would not be

18 in her better interest?

19 A I made that comment, yes.

20 Q Tell me what you meant by that comment.

21 A At the point of the coma that Terry's in now,

22 she's a total quadriplegic. Okay? In my own feelings, if

23 Terry were to wake up and see herself the way she is now,

24 she wouldn't even want to live like that.

25 Q Who has told you that she is a total

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41

1 quadriplegic?

2 A I can't remember the doctor's name, but back in

3 probate, when I was -- the doctor was testifying in front

4 of the judge, he mentioned that Terry was a total

5 quadriplegic. You'd have to pull records on that one.

6 Q Has a physician told you that even if she comes

7 out of the coma that she will be a total quadriplegic?

8 A I believe Doctor Barras said that to me once.

9 Q And that's the basis for your statement that

10 she'd be better off not coming out of the coma?

11 MR. NILSSON: Objection, misstates. Vague and

12 ambiguous. As to what, the statement of Doctor

13 Barras? The question is vague as to what you infer,

14 in fact, was the basis.

15 MR. SHEEHAN: I'll withdraw the question.

16 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

17 Q Did Doctor Yingling -- when he was here in

18 Florida seeing Terry -- did he ever suggest that she be

19 taken to Shands Clinic in Gainesville for neurological

20 testing?

21 A No.

22 Q Was she ever taken to Shands for neurological

23 testing?

24 A No.

25 Q Did Doctor Yingling find any change whatsoever in

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42

1 Terry's condition from the findings of Doctor Hosobuchi?

2 MR. NILSSON: Objection to the extent you're

3 asking what the doctor found. The doctor is the one

4 who has knowledge of it. This witness hasn't been

5 shown to have knowledge of it. You're asking what

6 the doctors told this witness?

7 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

8 Q To your knowledge; to your knowledge?

9 A To my knowledge?

10 Q Uh-huh.

11 A He found no change.

12 Q You did discuss that with him, didn't you?

13 A Oh, of course, my mother-in-law was there.

14 Q You asked him specifically was there any change

15 from when Doctor Hosobuchi saw her the previous year?

16 A Uh-huh, yes.

17 Q He replied that there wasn't?

18 A There was, I believe -- and don't hold me to his

19 exact words -- there was minimal change. Nothing

20 significant. Nothing consistent.

21 Q Did you ask him if he had any suggestions for

22 treatment?

23 A I don't recall asking him that.

24 Q Was there any discussions between yourself and

25 the doctor about treatment?

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43

1 A I don't recall. It was two years ago when he was

2 here.

3 Q You don't recall whether he suggested that she

4 have any further treatment?

5 A I think what he wanted to do at the time was get

6 the CP-900 machine from Shands, and it couldn't be done,

7 and it was left at that.

8 Q Explain that to me. He wanted a machine brought

9 down to St. Petersburg --

10 A Uh-huh.

11 Q -- from Shands?

12 A That's what I believe he wanted done, yes.

13 Q Was there any problem with taking Terry to Shands

14 rather than having the machine transported?

15 A I think my biggest problem was money.

16 Q Was there -- at least there was a suggestion by

17 the doctor that she be tested neurologically with this

18 machine?

19 A I don't recall if that was a suggestion or not.

20 I think -- I think he was trying to work on getting

21 Mediplex's machine when she was admitted to Mediplex.

22 Q Tell me about this machine. What do you know

23 about it?

24 A Nothing.

25 Q Do you know what the purpose of the testing was?

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44

1 A Brain waves. I believe it was to see what the

2 stimulator was doing.

3 Q Okay. Did the doctor think that this was

4 something that should have been done?

5 MR. NILSSON: Objection as it to what the doctor

6 thought. You can say what the doctor told you.

7 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

8 Q Okay. Fair enough. Did the doctor tell you that

9 he thought this was something that should be done?

10 A Um, I don't recall whether he said that or not.

11 Q Okay. But your recollection is that he wanted

12 the machine to come to St. Petersburg to test Terry?

13 A My recollection is, yes.

14 Q And that didn't happen because?

15 A If I remember correctly, the machine wasn't even

16 at Shands and nobody knew where it was.

17 Q Okay. And you couldn't transport Terry to Shands

18 because you didn't have the money at the time?

19 A Correct.

20 Q You do have the money now?

21 A That's none of your business.

22 MR. NILSSON: Well --

23 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

24 Q It is my business.

25 MR. NILSSON: Are you asking about his personal

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45

1 funds or the guardian funds for his wife?

2 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm asking him if he has the money

3 to transport his wife.

4 MR. NILSSON: If he personally has money?

5 MR. SHEEHAN: No, he's the guardian and there are

6 guardianship funds. He may not be the trustee, but

7 there is money available.

8 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

9 Q That's my question. There is money available now

10 to transport her to Shands to have that testing done,

11 isn't there?

12 A Yes.

13 Q But that has not been done?

14 A No.

15 Q Is there a reason why that hasn't been done?

16 A I haven't talked to Doctor Yingling in a year and

17 a half.

18 Q Do you have any reason to believe that Doctor

19 Yingling's opinion has changed?

20 A I have no idea what his opinion is.

21 Q Okay. There was some testimony the other day at

22 Mr. Schindler's deposition that you lived with the

23 Schindler's for a period of time. Is that correct?

24 A The Schindler's lived with me in my house.

25 Q Okay. When was that?

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46

1 A The year?

2 Q Yeah.

3 A It's '93 now, maybe '92.

4 Q And approximately how long did you and the

5 Schindler's live together?

6 A We lived at Hermacida approximately a year. We

7 lived at the other house approximately four to six months.

8 Q Can you describe, in general terms, what your

9 relationship with the Schindler's was at that time?

10 A Relationship was fine. They did their thing; I

11 did my thing.

12 Q Were you all working closely together to deal

13 with Terry's treatment?

14 A I think my mother-in-law and I were the only ones

15 that did it. She could do it anyway because if I wasn't

16 there, she didn't get anywhere.

17 Q There was a statement that you and her worked

18 very closely together during this time. Is that a true

19 statement?

20 A For the most part we worked closely.

21 Q What was the purpose of everybody living in the

22 same house?

23 A Well, the suggestion came from my father-in-law.

24 Q And what was the purpose of it?

25 A I believe because he was having financial

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47

1 difficulties and he wanted to get a house together.

2 Q Prior to that you lived in a condo that he

3 owned?

4 A Yes, I did.

5 Q And how long did you live there?

6 A I don't remember, approximately a year maybe.

7 Q Okay. Did you always pay your rent?

8 A Not always.

9 Q Were there times that you didn't pay the rent and

10 your father-in-law let you slide?

11 A Sure.

12 Q There came a time when your relationship with

13 Mary and Bob Schindler deteriorated, is that correct?

14 A Right. Correct.

15 Q And can you pinpoint when that happened?

16 A February 14.

17 Q 1993?

18 A Yes, '93.

19 Q Tell me what happened.

20 A I was sitting in the room doing my studies for

21 EMT.

22 Q What room?

23 A Terry's room. She was sitting in front of me in

24 her chair. I was sitting there studying, and they came in

25 late and I was studying and --

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48

1 Q Was this at the nursing home?

2 A Uh-huh.

3 Q Okay.

4 A And my father-in-law's usual question to me was,

5 how much money am I going to get, is what he said to me.

6 And I said, nobody was going to get any money right now.

7 And he said what do you mean, this is my daughter. And he

8 just went on. And to shut him up, I said, look, I gave

9 all my money to Terry. I don't have any money.

10 He looked at me, pointed his finger at me and

11 then pointed his finger at Terry and said, how much money

12 is she going to give me. I said to him, you'll have to

13 call the guardianship. I'm not the guardian over her

14 property. You'll have to get in touch with the bank.

15 He goes off and says, I'm getting on this

16 guardianship and tell you how to do this. And he walked

17 out of the room and called me a fucking jerk off. That's

18 when I got up, I pushed the bedside table aside. He shut

19 the door. My mother-in-law ran over to the door in

20 between me and the door.

21 I opened the door, and he's standing outside and

22 we went face to face. And he started saying that this is

23 his daughter morally and I said, that's great. He's going

24 to get a lawyer, and he started coming down on me. He's

25 going to get a lawyer. I said, fine, let's get a lawyer.

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49

1 And I walked down the hallway and I called my lawyer.

2 And I said to him that if he didn't like me

3 making decisions to leave. You own this nursing home now.

4 That's when I went down and called my lawyer.

5 Q Anything else that you recall?

6 A Not at the present time.

7 Q Okay. Did you ever tell Mr. and Mrs. Schindler

8 that they could not come to the nursing home?

9 A I never told them that.

10 Q Did you ever instruct anybody at the nursing home

11 not to provide any information about her -- about Terry's

12 medical condition to the Schindler's after that?

13 A I instructed the nursing home not to give out any

14 information about Terry's medical condition to anybody but

15 me or the doctor.

16 Q When did you make that?

17 A It happened a few weeks after Terry -- or maybe a

18 week after Terry came out of Largo Medical Center.

19 Q Which was when?

20 A It was in March, I believe.

21 Q March of '93?

22 A Yes. Yes, '93.

23 Q Okay. Prior to this altercation -- we will call

24 it an altercation -- of February 14, the relationship that

25 you had with the Schindler's was fairly amicable?

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50

1 A Yeah, I believe.

2 Q And they -- prior to that time they had access to

3 the medical records and they could talk to the physicians

4 and the nursing home people about their daughter, is that

5 correct?

6 A Correct.

7 Q Okay. And after that period of time that

8 changed, didn't it?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Overly broad and

10 ambiguous. Are you talking about the access to the

11 daughter, are you talking about medical information?

12 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm talking about the previous

13 question. Everybody in this room understands it.

14 BY THE DEPONENT:

15 A I don't.

16 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

17 Q I figured you wouldn't?

18 A Why do you say that?

19 MR. NILSSON: Let him rephrase it or whatever. I

20 won't argue with you. I'll make my objection. Ask

21 him understandable questions and I won't object.

22 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

23 Q All right. After the altercation on February 14,

24 1993, the Schindler's were not allowed any information

25 concerning their daughter's immediate condition, is that

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51

1 correct?

2 A The order was given not to give out any

3 information to anybody but myself or the doctor.

4 Q Okay. And what was -- why was that order given?

5 A Because I figured that -- the nursing home was

6 having problems, first off, with the certified nurses aids

7 giving wrong information out over the phone -- information

8 to family. And second of all, since my in-laws showed no

9 care about showing up or calling me when Terry was in the

10 hospital, I figured they didn't care.

11 Q Explain that. The Schindler's showed no care

12 about what?

13 A Terry being in the hospital in March.

14 Q Are you saying that you didn't think they cared

15 about their daughter at all?

16 A They never showed up.

17 Q So the reason that they were not at the hospital

18 -- because they were not at the hospital in March you

19 decided that they should not ever have any access to her

20 medical records or medical treatment again?

21 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Misstates and

22 missummarizes the witness's prior testimony about all

23 the events leading up to that point in time.

24 MR. SHEEHAN: Is that right?

25 MR. NILSSON: If you agree with exactly what he

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52

1 said, say it. If you disagree, say it.

2 BY THE DEPONENT:

3 A I agree.

4 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

5 Q When you made the decision that you were not

6 going to treat Terry's infection and you were going to in

7 effect allow her to die, did you think that you had any

8 obligation to tell her parents?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection to the extent it calls

10 for a legal conclusion, what the law is and

11 everything like that.

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q I'm not asking for legal conclusion.

14 A To answer the question, I probably would have let

15 them know sooner or later.

16 Q You never did let them know, though, did you?

17 A No.

18 Q When you say you would probably would have let

19 them know sooner or later, were you contemplating a

20 certain time frame when you would let them know?

21 A I don't know what my thoughts were right then.

22 Q Okay. What was the -- what is the name of the

23 nursing home where Terry is presently residing?

24 A Sable Palms Health Care Center.

25 Q And how long has she been there?

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53

1 A Two years, three months.

2 Q Are you satisfied with the treatment she's been

3 given there?

4 A Not all the time.

5 Q Have you had any particular problems at the

6 nursing home?

7 A I've had quite a few particular problems.

8 Q Can you tell us what those problems are?

9 MR. NILSSON: Let me raise this objection, Jim,

10 you know, looking at the pleadings in your petition,

11 and I've been trying to certainly give you leeway to

12 cover the things that you've alleged, you've not

13 alleged; directly or indirectly, that I can see any

14 problem may exist on the nursing home.

15 I know on the notice you invited a person from

16 the nursing home personnel to be here to sit at this

17 deposition. This is my position. It's not alleged

18 in the petition, and I don't want to go into it,

19 because I think it's outside the scope of what the

20 pleadings allege.

21 It's not directed, that I can see, to obtain

22 relevant information. It's not reasonably calculated

23 to lead to admissible evidence.

24 If you want to make an allegation that somehow

25 this is relevant to what you're seeking, or if the

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54

1 nursing home wants to do something, then it's seems,

2 to me, we can get into all those things.

3 As the pleadings stand, I really don't see it.

4 Right now I'm about to instruct the witness not to

5 answer. But I'm certainly willing to listen to what

6 you have to say.

7 MR. SHEEHAN: Let me just say a few things.

8 MR. NILSSON: Okay.

9 MR. SHEEHAN: This is discovery. I'm entitled to

10 ask any questions which may reasonably be calculated

11 to lead to discoverable evidence. Certainly the

12 relationship between the guardian and the nursing

13 home and what occurs at the nursing home is

14 discoverable in determining the fitness of the

15 guardian, whether there is an allegation about it or

16 not because this is discovery.

17 And the question overall here concerns the

18 ability of the guardian to remain as guardian. Also,

19 you can place an objection as to relevancy and

20 materiality, but you cannot instruct the witness not

21 to answer unless there is a ground privilege. Your

22 objection is noted. I'm entitled to inquire.

23 MR. NILSSON: The Second D.C. case is right on

24 point. It says if it's outside what's reasonable may

25 be evidence in this case, and this is over and above

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55

1 what the rule says, you can't get it.

2 I'll get the case out right now and give it to

3 you if you want me to do that. Your pleadings state

4 what your case is and, you know, I'm not saying

5 you're sitting here trying to get in --

6 MR. SHEEHAN: I can amend my pleadings any time,

7 I'm in discovery. If I file a complaint, I'm allowed

8 to inquire about all events surrounding the subject

9 matter of my complaint, even though it's not

10 specifically stated in my complaint.

11 And if after further discovery, I need to amend

12 my complaint at a later time, I can do that. You

13 cannot tell me that because something's not in my

14 complaint, that I can't ask about it and amend my

15 pleadings later. That's ridiculous.

16 MR. NILSSON: I think I can. How is it relevant

17 to what you've got plead?

18 MR. SHEEHAN: You've got to decide whether you're

19 going to instruct the witness not to answer or not.

20 I think it's certainly relevant. His relationship

21 with the nursing home is certainly relevant.

22 MR. NILSSON: I'm going to instruct him not to

23 answer, for the reasons stated. If you want to

24 allege that he has some problem with the nursing home

25 that keeps him discharging his duties, alleged, if

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56

1 you want to make them right now into the record, I'll

2 let you make the amendment and you can get into it.

3 Without the allegation, I'm not going to let you go

4 fishing for things. I'm just not.

5 MR. SHEEHAN: Well, I will say this on the

6 record. Evidence has appeared, has come to me, that

7 there may be a problem, and I think I have a right to

8 inquire about it. For me to say absolutely there is

9 problem, without inquiring about it, I think is

10 something that I should not do.

11 MR. NILSSON: I appreciate that, but for me to

12 have my witness exposed to, you know, who knows what,

13 without him being fairly on notice from the pleading,

14 I think is not right either.

15 MR. SHEEHAN: I'll put you on notice right now

16 there has been statements made to me that there is a

17 problem with his relationship with the nursing home.

18 What that is specifically, I don't know.

19 That's why we have the depositions set of the

20 nursing home people, and that's why we have Mike

21 Schiavo's deposition set. And I don't know what

22 those problems are, but I'm entitled to inquire about

23 them, because they affect the specific issue of

24 whether he's qualified to be a guardian.

25 Now there may be an allegation. I'll make an

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57

1 allegation right now to solve your dilemma. I'm

2 alleging right now that he's not qualified to be

3 guardian for, not only the reasons expressed in the

4 petition, but because he his having problems at the

5 nursing home and because of his relationship and his

6 nature with the nursing home people, it effects his

7 ability --

8 MR. NILSSON: To properly care for his wife?

9 MR. SHEEHAN: -- to properly care for his wife.

10 MR. NILSSON: Okay. Subject to that allegation

11 that you have amended, it's appropriate form to put

12 it in writing, but with it having been stated, ask

13 him.

14 MR. SHEEHAN: Let me say this, if the facts don't

15 bear that out, I'm not going to amend.

16 MR. NILSSON: I don't think they will, but go

17 ahead. That's fine. Restate it.

18 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

19 Q Okay. Now you indicated that you have had

20 problems at the nursing home from time to time, and I

21 think my last question to you is: What problems have you

22 had?

23 A With the care of my wife.

24 Q Can you be more specific?

25 A Well, I don't have all the grievances in front of

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58

1 me, but let's see. Maybe, the one --

2 MR. NILSSON: Let me interject. We do have

3 grievances outside. He just referred to them in

4 advance. I'll be glad to go get them and bring them

5 in here and, maybe, give you more specific

6 information.

7 MR. SHEEHAN: Sure.

8 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

9 MR. NILSSON: Do you want me to give it to him or

10 to you?

11 MR. SHEEHAN: Well --

12 MR. NILSSON: Ask your question, see if he's

13 referred to the grievances in it.

14 MR. SHEEHAN: Can I look at them first before I

15 ask the questions?

16 MR. NILSSON: Do you have all the grievances

17 there?

18 THE DEPONENT: No, Sable Palms hasn't come up

19 with the first year's. This is '93.

20 MR. NILSSON: We've handed Mr. Sheehan a number

21 of photocopy pages of, what are they, Mike?

22 THE DEPONENT: They're called grievance

23 procedures.

24 MR. NILSSON: Okay.

25 MR. SHEEHAN: Do you think it would be okay if I

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59

1 got copies of these?

2 MR. NILSSON: I don't.

3 THE DEPONENT: I don't if you don't.

4 MR. SHEEHAN: If we got allegations, we will be

5 glad to provide that to you.

6 Okay. Let me just state, on the record, that

7 I've been handed a number of documents entitled

8 grievance procedures and I've gone through several of

9 them and counsel agreed to provide me a copy. At a

10 later time, after I've reviewed them, I may want to

11 continue the deposition just for the specific purpose

12 of going through these particular documents, do you

13 have any objection to that?

14 MR. NILSSON: I do. If you wanted to do a

15 subpoena duces tecum or a notice of taking deposition

16 duces tecum to Mike and have received these records

17 previously and done your deposition, you were free to

18 do that.

19 You just learned it. I'm trying to cooperate by

20 providing the records. I'm not saying I wouldn't

21 agree to it. But I'm not going to sit here and say I

22 would. It's not the easiest thing for Mike to come

23 and have to do. And I don't know if I want to put

24 him through another day of depositions.

25 MR. SHEEHAN: I understand.

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60

1 MR. NILSSON: Do the best you can with the

2 records right now and we'll address it.

3 MR. SHEEHAN: I understand. I just wanted to put

4 you on notice of it.

5 MR. NILSSON: Okay. Fair enough.

6 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

7 Q Mr. Schiavo, you provided me with a number of

8 documents entitled grievance procedures and, as I

9 understand it, these are grievances that you filed with

10 the nursing home regarding their -- in general, regarding

11 their failure to perform proper functions with regard to

12 your wife's treatment, is that correct?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Who at the nursing home do you deal with?

15 A I deal -- basically, I made a deal with Elaine

16 Nelson and Bev Bule (phonetic). If I had a problem I'd

17 come see them.

18 Q Anybody else?

19 A No. That was the deal I made. I'd come see Bev

20 and Elaine.

21 Q Is it your feeling that you have a personality

22 problem with some people at the nursing home?

23 A No. I don't have a personality problem with the

24 people at the nursing home.

25 Q Have you had arguments with anybody?

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61

1 A Oh, yeah.

2 Q Who have you had arguments with?

3 A Terry Russell.

4 Q When you said that you made --

5 MR. NILSSON: Well, let me ask that the witness

6 be allowed -- you asked him a question. He answered

7 one. He was not finished, I don't believe.

8 MR. SHEEHAN: Oh, I'm sorry.

9 MR. NILSSON: I don't want it to appear later

10 that he only said one name. If he's got additional

11 information, please let him finish.

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q I'm sorry were you finished?

14 A No. I've had some mild talking with Elaine

15 Nelson. I've had some mild talking with Bev Bule. And I

16 believe I had loud talking with one nurse a long time ago.

17 Q And you don't remember her name?

18 A Judy O'Brien.

19 Q Okay. When you said that now you deal with

20 Elaine Nelson and Bev Bule, is it?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q By agreement, are you saying that you, for some

23 reason, you and the nursing home have agreed that you're

24 not going to deal with Terry Russell anymore?

25 A I deal with Terry Russell, but Terry Russell got

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62

1 a new job now. He's not the administrator anymore.

2 Q He's not at the nursing home anymore?

3 A He's on the third floor of the ACLF. He does

4 something else.

5 Q But the reason that you don't deal with him is

6 because he has a new job and not any --

7 A No, I usually -- go ahead and finish your

8 question.

9 Q Not any personality conflict that you had with

10 him?

11 MR. NILSSON: Are you talking about right now as

12 he sits here?

13 MR. SHEEHAN: Yes.

14 BY THE DEPONENT:

15 A No, I don't have any personality conflict with

16 Terry Russell. I've even told him that.

17 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

18 Q But the arguments that you've had at the nursing

19 home have been with Terry Russell?

20 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Misstates his

21 testimony. He mentioned several people.

22 MR. SHEEHAN: He said he had arguments with Terry

23 Russell and loud talking with these other people.

24 BY THE DEPONENT:

25 A I had one argument with Terry Russell, and the

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63

1 rest was loud talking.

2 Q When was the argument?

3 A The argument was back in -- don't quote me the

4 month -- but that's when I asked my mother and

5 father-in-law to come in and settle it. That's with Judy

6 O'Brien. Wife was spiking a fever. I asked her to call

7 the doctor. Judy O'Brien got in my face and I got in her

8 face. Then I went down and got loud with Terry Russell.

9 Q And then --

10 A That was the argument I had with Terry Russell in

11 the middle of the floor.

12 Q And you said that you asked the Schindler's to

13 come in and --

14 A I called my mother-in-law and I said to her, you

15 know, I can't get anything done in here. You guys come

16 and smooth this out.

17 Q Did they do that?

18 A I don't know whether they smoothed it out or not.

19 My father-in-law told me that I should start keeping notes

20 about everything that happens around here.

21 Q When was the next time you went into the nursing

22 home after that argument?

23 A The next day.

24 Q Was everything taken care of?

25 A No. I had taken Terry out into the lounge where

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64

1 I usually sit and we'd sit and talk. And Terry started

2 choking real bad, so Patrick, the physical therapist at

3 the time that was there, came over and said, do I need

4 help. I said, yes, please get a nurse.

5 He ran around the corner, got a nurse that

6 happened to be Judy O'Brien. Judy O'Brien came around the

7 corner, looked at me, and left. I had to wait for another

8 nurse to come up and help Terry.

9 Q So what did you do?

10 A I helped Terry as much as I could till the nurse

11 got there.

12 Q What did you do about that situation?

13 A I went and got angry about it with Bev Bule. I

14 told her, you know, she can have all the grief she wants

15 with me. She has patient care to do. That's walking away

16 from a choking patient. And Terry Russell's comment that

17 day was, if you don't like the care here, leave.

18 Q Is there any reason why you haven't left there?

19 A Because I shouldn't have to leave the nursing

20 home. I like the nursing home overall. It's a beautiful

21 place.

22 Q Has the nursing home ever had discussions with

23 you -- let me strike that. Is the reason that you don't

24 want to leave the nursing home because it is a facility

25 that adequately takes care of Terry?

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65

1 A That's one of the reasons adequately.

2 Q Do you think that it is the best facility in the

3 area to keep her?

4 A It's the cleanest and the brightest and the

5 prettiest facility in the area.

6 Q Are there any other facilities that you'd rather

7 see her in?

8 A No.

9 Q So you think it's the best?

10 A It's the cleanest, the brightest and it's the

11 cleanest. I didn't say it was the best.

12 Q Is there a better one that you know of?

13 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Can you clarify when

14 you say best in terms of, what, medical treatment or

15 number of nurses on staff?

16 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm talking about overall.

17 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

18 Q When you evaluate where you want somebody to be,

19 you're going to consider each and every factor to

20 determine which is the best place for her to be. That's

21 what built into my question. Do you consider that overall

22 to be the best place for her to be?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Have you had any discussions with the people at

25 the nursing home, in particular Terry Russell, Elaine

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1 Nelson, Bev Bule, in which they have indicated to you that

2 they may remove Terry from the nursing home because of

3 your behavior?

4 A I haven't had any of those, no. Matter of fact,

5 Terry Russell said, I don't want Terry to leave.

6 Q No one had indicated to you --

7 A Nobody has indicated that to me.

8 Q Okay. The lawsuit that was filed against the

9 doctor who treated your wife. When was that, when was the

10 verdict entered, do you know?

11 A When was the verdict entered?

12 Q Uh-huh.

13 A November tenth.

14 Q 1992?

15 A Uh-huh. Right.

16 Q Do you recall what the verdict was?

17 A Um, they found --

18 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Best evidence. Answer

19 to the best of your ability.

20 BY THE DEPONENT:

21 A To the best of my knowledge, and what I remember,

22 they found Terry 70 percent negligent and Igel 30 percent.

23 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

24 Q What was the total damage award to Terry? Or let

25 me ask this: What was the net damage award to Terry?

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1 MR. NILSSON: Same objection. Best evidence.

2 You're saying how much money actually was going to be

3 paid to Terry or her guardianship?

4 MR. SHEEHAN: Exactly.

5 BY THE DEPONENT:

6 A After everybody else was paid off?

7 MR. NILSSON: Taking out attorneys' fees and

8 all --

9 BY THE DEPONENT:

10 A Attorneys' fees?

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q Yeah. No just give me the net award.

13 MR. NILSSON: What the jury awarded as a total

14 figure that was going to be paid to Terry's

15 guardianship.

16 BY THE DEPONENT:

17 A I think one point two. Don't quote me on one

18 point two.

19 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

20 Q One point two million?

21 A Don't quote me on that.

22 Q There was an award to you, also, correct?

23 A Correct.

24 Q What was the amount of that award?

25 A Um, I think before the 70 was taken out,

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1 something like two point one.

2 Q Two point one?

3 A Million.

4 Q It was a personal award to you, two point one

5 million?

6 A If I'm saying that right, if I understood it

7 right, the way they did it.

8 MR. NILSSON: Same objection. Best evidence.

9 BY THE DEPONENT:

10 A I really don't know how they did the numbers.

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q Okay.

13 A I mean, I'm not a mathematician.

14 Q Well, what I'm asking is: How much did you

15 receive as result of this verdict? Did you receive two

16 point four million dollars?

17 A No. No. I ended up with like 300,000.

18 Q Okay. You were here at the deposition the other

19 day when Mr. Schindler had said that there was an

20 agreement that you and the Schindler's were going to share

21 whatever award you personally received as a result of that

22 lawsuit? Do you recall that testimony?

23 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Misstates the prior

24 testimony. I think it was a commitment.

25 BY THE DEPONENT:

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1 A I don't remember it word for word.

2 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

3 Q But you do recall in general?

4 A I recall something of that, yeah.

5 Q Okay. Was there ever any type of commitment on

6 your part to the Schindler's to share your portion of any

7 award?

8 A No, there was not.

9 Q Was there ever any discussion about that, to your

10 knowledge?

11 A Of an award of money?

12 Q Yes.

13 A There was some possibilities of what we would do

14 with Terry if there was enough money there.

15 Q Tell me what those discussions were.

16 A That's was back in the Roland Lamb days, when

17 Roland Lamb had the case.

18 Q Is that the attorney with --

19 A Glen Woodworth. And Roland would tell us this

20 case was worth 15, 20 million dollars. With that we were

21 shooting around, you know, how nice Terry could live and,

22 you know.

23 And then the case went bust and belly up. And

24 Roland left, and there was no commitments. I didn't even

25 know if I was going to get any money or if Terry was going

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1 to get any money. Glen Woodworth told me that a million

2 times, don't count on anything.

3 Q Did you ever make the statement to either Bob or

4 Mary Schindler, to either of them, that if I receive my

5 money in this lawsuit, I'm going to share it with you?

6 A No.

7 Q Did you ever make a statement similar to that?

8 A No.

9 Q Were there discussions between yourself and the

10 Schindler's about using the money, if you received any

11 money from the lawsuit, to either rent or purchase a house

12 where Terry would actually live with her parents?

13 A There was discussions about that. That was back

14 in the Roland Lamb days when, you know, the 15, 20 million

15 dollars was there. and it kind of like, faded away.

16 When it came up again, my father-in-law wanted to

17 purchase a house with a separate apartment for Terry, so

18 the nurses would have a separate room for the nurses to go

19 in.

20 MR. NILSSON: Objection, unless the witness has

21 finished his answer.

22 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

23 Q Were you finished?

24 A Yeah.

25 Q What was your thoughts about that, about that

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1 arrangement, about Terry living at home with her mother

2 and father?

3 A I wasn't crazy about that. We've had Terry home

4 before, and I took care of her. My father-in-law would

5 tell me all the time that this isn't working out because

6 your mother-in-law is getting upset. She doesn't like to

7 be with Terry at home. She needs to be with professional

8 people.

9 I was the one that used to fight it. I was the

10 one that said, no, I'll take care of her. No, I'll do it.

11 I'll do it. My father-in-law never lifted one finger to

12 help out. I was the one in the -- got up in the middle of

13 the night, every night, checking on Terry. I was the one

14 that slept in her room.

15 Q How long was she at home?

16 A The first time she was home for about four months

17 with us.

18 Q And why did she go back to the nursing home?

19 A Because we could not do it. It got to be too

20 much.

21 Q But you tried it again after that?

22 A She went to Mediplex after that and came home

23 about nine days. We hired round-the-clock nurses.

24 Q After that first time, you feel that you had all

25 reached the conclusion you really couldn't handle her at

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1 home?

2 A I didn't reach that conclusion. I would have

3 liked to brought her home again.

4 Q Why didn't you?

5 A Because it was too much work. I would have like

6 to brought her home, but it was too much work.

7 Q So you did reach the conclusion that it was too

8 much work?

9 A Well, yes. Yes.

10 Q When did you quit work again at Augustino's? I

11 can't remember the exact date you said.

12 A I don't remember the exact dates either. It had

13 to be maybe -- I'd stayed with Terry in ICU -- it was 16

14 days and nights before I even left ICU. Um, I think

15 maybe 15 days later I went back to work and I was with

16 them for about another month.

17 Q So it would be approximately sometime in March or

18 April of --

19 A Probably more towards the end of April.

20 Q -- of 1990?

21 A '91 it would have to be. February, March. Don't

22 hold me to the dates. I'm not good with dates.

23 Q When did you receive any money as a result of the

24 lawsuit?

25 A When?

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1 Q Uh-huh.

2 A Glen Woodworth gave me a check approximately, I

3 think it was a month after.

4 Q So it would be approximately December of '92?

5 A Well, no, it had to be in January, 'cause --

6 yeah, it had to be longer than that.

7 Q What did you live on between April of '91 and

8 January of '93?

9 A Some money that I had. I collected Terry's life

10 insurance; lived on that. Terry and I had some money

11 saved. It was scrimping. My parents helped me out a

12 little bit.

13 Q What money did you use for Terry's treatment?

14 A We had fundraisers for that.

15 Q Can you tell me a little bit about those

16 fundraisers?

17 A It was a bunch of stuff went on. I sat on the

18 beach for two or three weeks selling hotdogs out of a

19 truck, raising money that way, sold pretzels at the beach

20 fest, that way.

21 I went on the T.V. and the news. We got

22 responses that way. Um, some of the neighbors pitched in.

23 We had a Valentine's Day dance for her. When I was out in

24 California, they had a, luminary-type thing, sold wax bags

25 and put sand in it and put a candle in it, stuff like

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1 that.

2 Q Do you know how much money you raised on the

3 fundraiser s?

4 A Offhand, don't hold me to it, but 20,000, maybe,

5 I'm not sure. I'd have to look at records.

6 Q Was it -- was it put in a separate trust?

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q And who was the trustee of that trust?

9 A My mother-in-law and me, and couple of people

10 from Vina Del Mar Association had to be on it.

11 Q And where was that trust account?

12 A First Union Bank.

13 Q Did you and Terry also have a bank account,

14 separate bank accounts?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Where was that at?

17 A First Union.

18 Q Did you also have a savings account?

19 A Just checking.

20 Q Okay. Did you only have one checking account?

21 A Uh-huh.

22 Q Do you know what the trust account at First Union

23 Bank was called?

24 A Theresa Schiavo Trust Fund.

25 MR. NILSSON: Let me interpose an objection to

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1 relevancy. Is this somehow tied in to the

2 allegations that he's not properly taking care of his

3 wife right now?

4 MR. SHEEHAN: What I'm trying to do is, I'm

5 trying to find out how he was living, find out if he

6 was using any of the trust funds?

7 MR. NILSSON: Does that relate to any of the

8 petitions to get her moved?

9 MR. SHEEHAN: I think that would have some

10 relation.

11 MR. NILSSON: You tell me. I don't see it at

12 all. It's not alleged and --

13 MR. SHEEHAN: Well, let me just -- we have

14 alleged that -- we have alleged that there is a real

15 potential conflict of interest and the conflict

16 involves money, it involves his relationship and, you

17 know --

18 MR. NILSSON: As an heir, that's what you say

19 specifically?

20 MR. SHEEHAN: Correct. But I think it is

21 relevant to inquire, at least to determine what his

22 motivation in the future is as to what he's done in

23 the past. That's certainly relevant.

24 MR. NILSSON: Let me think about that one for

25 just a minute.

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1 MR. SHEEHAN: I really only have one or two

2 questions.

3 MR. NILSSON: Go ahead.

4 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

5 Q Did you ever use any of the funds from the

6 Theresa Schiavo Trust Fund for your own personal living

7 expenses?

8 A Absolutely not.

9 Q When you went to California, who paid for that

10 trip?

11 A Theresa's trust fund.

12 Q And it paid for your expenses out there?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Your daily rent, food, et cetera, did the trust

15 fund pay for any of that?

16 A Yes.

17 Q So the trust fund really did pay for your

18 daily --

19 A In that instance, yes.

20 Q Okay. When you were not in California, when you

21 were at home in St. Petersburg, did that trust fund money,

22 was that used for rent or food?

23 A No, absolutely not.

24 Q What specifically was it used for?

25 A Well, it was used for the trip to California.

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1 Okay. It was used to pay College Harbor Nursing Home. It

2 was used to pay the round the clock nursing care we had

3 when I came home. It was used for some various things

4 that Terry needed. I didn't spend a dime of it on myself.

5 Q Were there any other -- was there any other

6 source of income that you or Terry was receiving at that

7 time other than the trust fund or your own personal

8 savings?

9 MR. NILSSON: Objection. The question is

10 compound. It's vague and it's ambiguous. It

11 missummarizes the prior testimony. He just testified

12 that that trust fund was not a source of income to

13 him and Terry, yet you filtered that in to your

14 question. I think the question is highly improper

15 and can even be answered by the witness. But if you

16 think you can answer it, answer it.

17 BY THE DEPONENT:

18 A There was no money spent on myself.

19 MR. SHEEHAN: That's not my question. And your

20 objection is well taken.

21 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

22 Q Were you or was your wife receiving any income at

23 that time? And I'll leave the question at that.

24 MR. NILSSON: At what time?

25 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

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1 Q During the period of time from 1991 when you left

2 your employment to January of 1993?

3 MR. NILSSON: On other than what he's already

4 testified to?

5 MR. SHEEHAN: Yeah. He's testified that there

6 was a trust fund which he did not use for anything

7 other than Terry's care, that there was some funds

8 that you had saved.

9 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

10 Q Was there any other source of income?

11 MR. NILSSON: Let me raise this objection.

12 Sources of income, you know, are -- you had gainful

13 employment, so he was receiving a salary. Are you

14 talking about interest income, dividends? Are you

15 talking about the savings account. If he's got a

16 thousand dollars in savings, he pulls $50 out, do you

17 consider that to be income?

18 MR. SHEEHAN: No. I'm talking about any income

19 from stocks, bonds --

20 MR. NILSSON: Ask him that.

21 MR. SHEEHAN: -- social security.

22 MR. NILSSON: Did you have any income from stocks

23 and bonds?

24 BY THE DEPONENT:

25 A I had social security, Terry's social security

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79

1 check, yes, which was given to me to help live. And this

2 -- that didn't happen for awhile because I was receiving

3 -- Terry couldn't get social security.

4 That's why she couldn't get on Medicaid or

5 Medicare because she was receiving her monthly paycheck as

6 a benefit when you become disabled, you still receive your

7 pay check. Now, I do remember that, I was receiving her

8 paycheck.

9 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

10 Q Any stocks or bonds?

11 A No. No.

12 Q So if I understand it, the only source of income

13 that you had during this period of time would have been

14 her paycheck from work for a year?

15 A Uh-huh.

16 Q Her social security check --

17 A She didn't have a social security check then.

18 Q I understand. That came about a year later?

19 A Right.

20 Q But it was during -- she was receiving some

21 social security during this period of time, 1991 to 1993?

22 A Didn't start till like nine -- middle of '92 she

23 started getting it. Like I said, she was receiving her

24 paycheck.

25 Q Her paycheck, her social security, whenever it

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1 kicked in, and whatever savings that you had?

2 A Right.

3 Q Whatever savings you had would have been

4 reflected in your checking account at First Union Bank?

5 A Should be.

6 MR. SHEEHAN: If we can just take another quick

7 break, I think I'm just be done.

8 MR. NILSSON: Sure.

9 (Whereupon, there was a short recess held.)

10 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

11 Q What did you do with your wife's jewelry?

12 A My wife's jewelry?

13 Q Yeah.

14 A Um, I think I took her engagement ring and her --

15 what do they call it -- diamond wedding band and made a

16 ring for myself.

17 Q Okay. Anything else? Did you make any other

18 jewelry for yourself?

19 A No, just that.

20 Q What did you do with her cats?

21 A Her cats were put to sleep on the advice of my

22 mother-in-law.

23 Q Did you open a safe deposit box at First Union in

24 1992?

25 A Uh-huh.

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1 Q Did you put ten thousand dollars into that?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And where did you get that money from?

4 A That was the living needs benefit that I received

5 from Terry.

6 Q What was that life insurance?

7 A Uh-huh. It was a couple of checks, and I stuck

8 them in there for safekeeping.

9 Q Anything else that you put in there?

10 MR. NILSSON: Objection.

11 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

12 Q I'll withdraw the question.

13 It's my understanding that you, at least at one

14 time, were treating with a psychiatrist?

15 A Right.

16 Q Who is that?

17 A Doctor Peter Kaplan.

18 Q Are you still treating with him?

19 A No.

20 Q Was this something that -- I mean, the treatment

21 that you received, was this because of what happened to

22 your wife?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And was it for a temporary period of time?

25 A Yes.

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1 Q How long was it for?

2 A Couple years, on, off.

3 Q And now you don't see the doctor?

4 A No. I haven't seen him in over a year.

5 Q Are you on medication?

6 A None.

7 Q At one time were you on medication?

8 A I was prescribed medication, I picked it up and

9 never took it.

10 Q What type medication were you prescribed?

11 A I was on -- I took some, Welbutron one time, some

12 Pamelor. I was on Elavil or Prozac, but I never took the

13 medication. I used to fight the doctors all the time, the

14 family doctor, Doctor Kaplan.

15 Q Let's go back over the medication again. What

16 medications were you prescribed by the doctors, if you

17 recall?

18 A Welbutron, Pamelor, Elavil, Prozac. That's all I

19 can recall. Not all at the same time.

20 Q That's my next question. Were these all

21 prescribed at different times?

22 A Yes. They're like -- maybe, he would prescribe

23 them when I got real down. I mean it's -- I'm talking

24 spans between each one.

25 Q Was there any reason why the doctor changed the

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1 medication?

2 A Because a lot of it made me sick to my stomach.

3 A lot of it was clouding my thoughts and I didn't like

4 that. It's an artificial stimulant, and I didn't want to

5 be artificially stimulated.

6 Q You took at least some of it?

7 A Some, but nothing to become addicted, if you want

8 to use that word.

9 Q Did the doctor change your medication from, say,

10 Melabutron to Pamelor --

11 A Welabutron --

12 Q -- to Pamelor at your request?

13 A I called him up and told him I wasn't feeling

14 well on these pills. And he says, well, let's try this.

15 Q Is that what occurred also from, when Pamelor was

16 changed to Elavil?

17 A A lot of them were making me sick to my stomach.

18 Q What about when you were prescribed Prozac?

19 A I don't think -- I think I got the prescription

20 filled, but I don't think I ever took it.

21 Q But you did take the others?

22 A One or two pills, three maybe, never took a whole

23 prescription.

24 Q Did you ever express to Mr. Schindler or Mrs.

25 Schindler at any time that you felt like committing

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1 suicide?

2 A Oh, yeah, felt like dying lots of times. Human,

3 you know, a lot of people like to die, you know, expressed

4 that to my own parents.

5 Q When did you express that to them?

6 A When I was down and feeling low and I didn't know

7 how to handle the situation.

8 MR. NILSSON: When in terms of time frame? Can

9 you put a time frame on it?

10 BY THE DEPONENT:

11 A Probably right after this happened to Terry.

12 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

13 Q Did that feeling -- I know you said it wasn't a

14 continual feeling but occurred from time to time -- did

15 that feeling occur from time to time over a period of

16 years?

17 A Um, very long time to times.

18 Q When did you stop treating with Doctor Kaplan?

19 A It's been about eight months, nine months now.

20 Q Since you've stopped with the doctor, have you

21 ever had a feeling that you're so low that you wanted to

22 commit suicide?

23 A No.

24 Q When was the last time before you stopped

25 treating with the doctor that you had that feeling?

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85

1 A Long time ago. Probably -- I can't give you a

2 date or time. I haven't felt it in a very long time,

3 maybe a year, year and two months. I don't know.

4 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay. I don't have any further

5 questions.

6 MR. NILSSON: I've got just a couple questions.

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. NILSSON:

9 Q Mr. Sheehan had asked you about your wife's

10 current condition. Is she in a comatose state right now?

11 A Yes, she is.

12 Q Can she feed herself?

13 A No, she can't.

14 Q Can she clothe herself?

15 A No, she can't.

16 Q Can she take a bath by herself?

17 A No, she can't.

18 Q Can she wash herself?

19 A No, she can't.

20 Q Can she maintain her own personal hygiene?

21 A No, she can't.

22 Q Can she go to the toilet by herself?

23 A No, she can't.

24 Q Can she speak?

25 A No, she doesn't.

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86

1 Q Have you ever discussed with any doctor the use

2 of a do not resuscitate order --

3 A Yes.

4 Q -- concerning your wife?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Which doctor did you discuss that with?

7 A Doctor Mulroy.

8 Q And what did Doctor Mulroy say about that?

9 A Um, that it was feasible to do in her condition.

10 Q Did he say whether, in his opinion, it should be

11 done in her condition?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What did he say?

14 A Just said, you know, somebody in Terry's

15 condition, if she were to have a heart attack, they should

16 let it go through the steps without resuscitating.

17 Q Was there a D and R order ever given for Terry?

18 A Yes.

19 Q As a result of that conversation with Doctor

20 Mulroy?

21 A Yes.

22 Q When was that?

23 A The same time the order was given for no

24 treatment.

25 MR. NILSSON: No further questions.

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87

1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

3 Q Was that order given by you?

4 A Given by the doctor.

5 Q At your instructions to the doctor?

6 A Yeah. More like not at my instruction as what we

7 were talking about.

8 Q As the guardian, you gave the doctor permission

9 to give that instruction?

10 A Uh-huh, yes.

11 Q You were just talking about Terry's condition.

12 And I want to ask you a question about her response or

13 reaction. Does she know when you are in the room or is

14 there any way that you can tell that she responds to

15 somebody being in the room?

16 MR. NILSSON: Objection. Compound. When you

17 say, does she know if someone's in the room, or do

18 you know if she knows? There's two different points

19 and you're asking the same thing.

20 BY MR. SHEEHAN:

21 Q Let me rephrase it. From your own perceptions,

22 do you think that Terry can perceive when you are in the

23 room or is aware in any way of what's going on around her?

24 A Um, Terry, in my own opinion, has no idea of

25 what's going on.

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88

1 Q There is no expression or any other indication

2 from her movements that she's aware of anything, is that

3 what you're saying?

4 A Right. The expression that she shows, which God

5 left her with, was the expression of pain, and that has

6 been since Terry's been in the coma. Terry -- they know

7 Terry can feel pain.

8 Q They know she can feel pain?

9 A Oh, yes.

10 Q Who has told you that?

11 A Many of the doctors.

12 Q Has Doctor Mulroy told you that?

13 A Sure.

14 Q Just one final question. What was your

15 relationship with your wife before she went into a coma?

16 A Our relationship was great.

17 Q Did you ever have any problems? Did you ever

18 discuss divorce at any time?

19 A We never discussed divorce. There was no need to

20 discuss it.

21 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay. I have nothing further.

22 MR. NILSSON: No questions. We will read.

23 MR. SHEEHAN: I'm not going to order it.

24 MR. NILSSON: I won't order it either.

25 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 3:43 p.m.)

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1

2 STIPULATION

3 It was stipulated by and between counsel and the deponent

4 that the reading and signing of the deposition not be

5 waived.

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1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 In Re: Schindler v Schiavo Case No. 90-2908-GD

3 DO NOT WRITE ON TRANSCRIPT -- ENTER CHANGES HERE:

4 Page No. Line No. Change

5 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

6 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

7 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

8 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

9 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

10 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

11 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

12 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

13 _______/ ________/ ________________________________/

14 ______________________________

15 MICHAEL SCHIAVO

16

17 STATE OF FLORIDA

18 COUNTY OF PINELLAS

19 I DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT MICHAEL SCHIAVO appeared

20 before me and stated that he has read his deposition;

21 further, that this Errata Sheet was signed in my presence on

22 the ____ day of ________________, 1994.

23 _________________________________

24 Notary Public

25

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91

1 STATE OF FLORIDA

2 COUNTY OF PASCO

3 I, DEVERAH BIANCO, Court Reporter and Notary Public

4 in and for the State of Florida at Large, DO HEREBY

5 CERTIFY that MICHAEL SCHIAVO was duly sworn by me.

6 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 15th day

7 of February, 1994, in the City of the New Port Richey, County

8 of Pasco, State of Florida.

9
<signed>
10 _________________________________

11 Deverah Bianco

12 Notary Public - State of Florida

13 My Commission No.

14

15
<Notary Seal DEVERAH BIANCO>
16 <MY COMMISSION # CC 179034 EXPIRES>
< MARCH 17, 1996 >
17 <BONDED THRU TROY FAIN INSURANCE, INC.>

18

19

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1 STATE OF FLORIDA

2 COUNTY OF PASCO

3 I, DEVERAH BIANCO, Court Reporter, DO HEREBY CERTIFY

4 that the foregoing deposition was taken before me at the

5 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand notes

6 were thereafter transcribed into this computer-assisted

7 transcript under my supervision; and the foregoing pages

8 numbered 1 through 91, inclusive, constitute a true and

9 correct record of the testimony given by the deponent.

10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee,

11 attorney or counsel of the parties, nor financially

12 interested in the foregoing action.

13 DATED this 15th day of February, 1994

14
<signed>
15 ____________________________

16 DEVERAH BIANCO

17

18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME this 15th day of

19 February, 1994, by DEVERAH BIANCO, who is personally

20 known to me.

21
<signed>
22 ____________________________

23 Notary Public - State of Florida

24 My Commission No. <OFFICIAL NOTARY SEAL>
< WENDY A LOKAN >
25 <NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF FLORIDA>
<COMMISSION NO CC103875>
<MY COMMISSION EXP. APR. 29, 1995>

1 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 PROBATE DIVISION
CASE NO. 90-2908-GD3
3 ______________________________________

4 IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF
THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
5
Incapacitated.
6 ______________________________________

7 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, AS GUARDIAN OF THE
PERSON OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
8
Petitioner,
9 APPEAL
vs.
10
ROBERT SCHINDLER AND MARY SCHINDLER,
11
Respondents.
12 ______________________________________

13 BEFORE: GEORGE W. GREER
Circuit Court Judge
14
PLACE: Clearwater Courthouse
15 Clearwater, FL 33756

16 DATE: January 24, 2000

17 TIME: 9:00 a.m.

18 REPORTED BY: Beth Ann Erickson, RPR
Court Reporter
19 Notary Public
____________________________________
20

21 TRIAL
____________________________________
22
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
23 501 South Fort Harrison
Clearwater, Florida 33756
24 (813) 464-4858
Volume I Pages 1 - 175
25

2
1 APPEARANCES:

2 GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
3 640 Douglas Avenue
Dunedin, FL 34698
4

5 Attorneys for Petitioner

6
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
7 The Alexander Building
535 Central Avenue
8 Suite 403
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
9

10 Attorney for Respondents

11

12 INDEX
Page
13 WITNESS
MICHAEL SCHIAVO
14 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 20
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 74
15 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 89

16 SCOTT SCHIAVO
Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 90
17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 108
Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 117
18
JAMES BARNHILL, MD
19 Direct Examination by Ms. Felos 121
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 159
20 Redirect Examination by Ms. Felos 171

21
EXHIBITS - PETITIONER'S
22 Page
Exhibit No. 1 25
23 Exhibit No. 2 25
Exhibit No. 3 56
24 Exhibit No. 4 71
Exhibit No. 5 134
25

3
1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit Court

3 in and for Pinellas County is now in session with

4 the Honorable George W. Greer, circuit court

5 judge, presiding. Be seated.

6 THE COURT: Good morning. Is the

7 petitioner ready to proceed?

8 MR. FELOS: Yes, we are, Your Honor.

9 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor.

10 THE COURT: Introduce those at counsel

11 table.

12 MR. FELOS: George Felos, Felos and

13 Felos PA.

14 MS. FELOS: Constance Felos, from the

15 firm of Felos and Felos, PA. This is the

16 petitioner, Michael Schiavo.

17 MS. CAMPBELL: Pam Campbell here

18 representing Mr. and Mrs. Schindler, the parents

19 of Theresa Schiavo and respondent, Bob Schindler,

20 father. My legal assistant, Theresa, and Mrs.

21 Schindler, the mother.

22 THE COURT: Opening statements?

23 MR. FELOS: We do have an opening

24 statement. Before we proceed, I notice there are

25 a number of witnesses here. Does the Court want

4
1 to swear in witnesses now and invoke the rule of

2 witnesses?

3 THE COURT: I'll swear the witnesses in

4 as they take the stand. The Court does not invoke

5 the rule. Do you wish to invoke the rule?

6 MR. FELOS: We wish to invoke the rule.

7 THE COURT: Aside from the parties, is

8 there anyone present that is a witness or intends

9 to be a witness in this case?

10 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Sir, the rule has been

12 invoked, which is a rule of sequestration. What

13 that means is that the only time you can be

14 present in court is when you are testifying. From

15 this point forward, you are not to discuss your

16 testimony with anybody or the facts of this case

17 with anyone other than the lawyers, Ms. Campbell

18 or Mr. Felos -- you can talk to them -- but other

19 than that, you are not to discuss the case with

20 anyone.

21 So the bailiff will show you where you

22 can stay, if you are called to testify. Counsel,

23 be so kind as to advise your other witnesses that

24 the rule has been invoked. Very well. Mr. Felos?

25 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor.

5
1 Your Honor, in this case there are no winners.

2 Whatever the outcome of this case, everyone has

3 lost. A little less than ten years ago, February

4 1990, a beautiful vivacious young woman's heart

5 stopped beating. Her brain was deprived of oxygen

6 and since that time she's existed in a permanent

7 vegetative state, whereas her parents have agreed

8 in the pleadings, it's an irreversible, profoundly

9 debilitating condition.

10 On that day close to ten years ago, my

11 client, Mr. Schiavo, lost the wife he knew. Her

12 parents lost their dreams and hopes of a full life

13 with their daughter and her siblings, and friends

14 lost a shining presence in their lives. So in

15 this case, there is no final judgment order,

16 decree, that can ever bring Theresa Schiavo back.

17 If this Court grants the petition and

18 permits Theresa Schiavo's artificial life support

19 to be removed, all the parties will have to suffer

20 the agony of watching a beloved one die, even

21 though it is my client's belief and wish that is

22 what his wife wanted. If this Court does not

23 grant the petition, Theresa Schiavo's body will be

24 maintained in this condition, perhaps for decades,

25 and there is no victory or win in that for anyone.

6
1 The evidence will show in this case that

2 Theresa had a conventional childhood. She was

3 brought up by her parents. They were practicing

4 Catholics at the time. She meets Michael in

5 community college in the Philadelphia area. They

6 fall in love. They married. They lived there

7 from, as a married couple, from 1984 to 1986.

8 They met in 1982. They had a family oriented life

9 in Philadelphia, both with Michael and Theresa's

10 family.

11 They moved to Florida in 1986. She

12 worked for Prudential Insurance and he worked in

13 food service management as a restaurant manager,

14 assistant restaurant manager, working nights. You

15 will also hear evidence that Theresa once had a

16 weight problem. Was heavy in her early adulthood

17 and lost a significant amount of weight. You will

18 hear evidence that Theresa wanted to become

19 pregnant. Wanted to have a family. Was under a

20 doctor's care to become pregnant, and while under

21 that doctor's care, developed a potassium

22 imbalance which caused her heart to stop beating,

23 which caused the incident in question.

24 You will hear much evidence as to how

25 Mr. Schiavo cared for his wife. Fought for his

7

1 wife. Fought to get experimental treatment for

2 his wife. Raised funds for his wife to go out to

3 California and have electrical implants to try to

4 stimulate her brain. Engaged in fund raisers.

5 How he stayed with her for day and night for

6 periods of years. How he has been termed, as he

7 has been termed, as a nursing home administrator's

8 worst nightmare. How he has gotten for Theresa a

9 level of care that most other patients would not

10 have received.

11 You will hear evidence how he hired a

12 private aide over a 2-year period to take Theresa

13 out to museums, hairdressers, beauty makeovers, to

14 try to stimulate her in some hope that she may

15 improve or may revive. You will also hear

16 evidence from physicians, Your Honor, that there

17 is no hope of recovery for Theresa. That she is

18 in a permanent vegetative condition.

19 You will also hear doctor's evidence

20 that the process of removal of a feeding tube and

21 the death process involved there takes seven to

22 ten days. That a patient does not starve to

23 death. A patient quickly develops an electrolyte

24 imbalance which causes death within a short time,

25 and that death as a result of this process is not

8
1 painful.

2 You will hear disputed evidence as to

3 the cognition of Theresa Schiavo. I am sure you

4 will hear evidence by the respondent that they

5 believe Theresa is aware of their presence.

6 However, it is important for the Court to remember

7 that that is really a non issue in this case. The

8 major issue in this case is what Terri's intent

9 was.

10 And we will present testimony from Mr.

11 Schiavo and his brother and sister-in-law as to

12 conversations Theresa Schiavo had with them in

13 which she stated that if she had to be dependent

14 on the care of others, she would not want to live

15 that way. She would rather die. Also, if she was

16 in that condition, she would not want to be kept

17 alive or maintained artificially. Her wishes were

18 not contingent upon being totally unconscious or

19 vegetative, but broadly expressed in that way. So

20 although there may be dispute in this case as to

21 whether Theresa has some awareness of her

22 surroundings, minimal awareness, it really is a

23 non issue in terms of her expression of intent.

24 There may be some evidence that while

25 Theresa was living with her parents, she may have

9
1 made comments about the Karen Ann Quinlan case.

2 We believe that the Court will not find that

3 evidence particularly credible, and certainly if

4 it is, contrary to her later statements, would

5 have been a change of position for Theresa.

6 You will also receive testimony, Your

7 Honor, from some experts. One will be an expert

8 witness testifying as to the doctrine and policies

9 of the Catholic church regarding artificial life

10 support. That testimony will show that the

11 request of the petitioner in this case is highly

12 consistent with the teachings of the Catholic

13 faith.

14 You will also hear evidence from an

15 expert in America's attitudes and expressions

16 concerning end of life care, who will also testify

17 that the manner of expression, the manner in which

18 Theresa expressed her wishes, is very consistent

19 with how Americans do that. That usually these

20 statements are made as a catalyst to a particular

21 event and illness of a relative; watching a movie

22 or television program where someone is impaired.

23 That is how these expressions are usually and

24 customarily made.

25 You will also hear in this trial

10
1 testimony regarding the relationship between the

2 parties, the petitioner and respondents, which was

3 a good relationship and a supportive relationship

4 until the malpractice award was given in this

5 case. You will hear evidence that in 1992 a

6 verdict was issued in a medical malpractice case

7 brought on Theresa's behalf and Theresa, the

8 guardianship estate, netted over $700,000 and that

9 Mr. Schiavo netted approximately $300,000 in a

10 loss of consortium award.

11 You will hear evidence -- you will hear

12 testimony from the respondents that there was an

13 alleged agreement between Mr. Schiavo and the

14 respondents that he would split his loss of

15 consortium award with them. You will hear

16 testimony from Mr. Schiavo that that was not the

17 case. You will hear testimony that the

18 respondents were in significant financial

19 difficulties at that time and were upset that they

20 didn't receive a portion of Mr. Schiavo's award.

21 You will hear testimony of basically an

22 unfortunate falling apart of that relationship and

23 also testimony that shortly after that falling

24 apart, the respondents filed a suit in this court

25 to remove Mr. Schiavo as Theresa's guardian

11
1 alleging that he was in a relationship with

2 another woman, that he was not caring for her

3 medically, and that he had a financial conflict of

4 interest. You will hear testimony that that suit

5 was dismissed with prejudice by the respondents.

6 There will be testimony that three years

7 after Theresa's incident, yes, Mr. Schiavo did

8 have a relationship and is in a relationship

9 currently. You will hear testimony that, yes, Mr.

10 Schiavo wants to have a family in the future. He

11 wants to be a father in the future. And you will

12 also hear that that doesn't mean that he doesn't

13 love Terri and will always love Terri and wants

14 what's best for her.

15 You will hear testimony that it's always

16 been the respondents' wish for Mr. Schiavo to move

17 on with his life, and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler take

18 over the guardianship and take over the care of

19 Terri. You will hear testimony regarding the

20 Schindlers' beliefs concerning medical treatment

21 and their wishes concerning Terri. Terri's

22 medical treatment. Some of that evidence, which

23 may be disturbing.

24 You will hear testimony that the

25 Schindlers, if in Terri's condition, would want

12
1 all possible medical treatment to keep them alive

2 at all costs, even if they were permanently

3 unconscious. You will hear testimony that they

4 would choose chemotherapy. They would choose, if

5 they developed gangrene, they would choose to have

6 their limbs amputated to remain in a permanent

7 vegetative condition.

8 You will also hear testimony from

9 Theresa's father that if Terri needed open heart

10 surgery, he would choose to have open heart

11 surgery performed on her rather than have her die.

12 You will hear testimony from her father that if

13 Theresa developed gangrene and limbs needed to be

14 amputated, he would choose to have that for his

15 daughter. You will also hear testimony,

16 Your Honor, that those beliefs and intents have

17 nothing to do with being Catholic or part of the

18 Catholic faith.

19 You will hear -- I am sure you will hear

20 testimony in this case about the guardianship

21 estate, and yes, if Theresa Schiavo dies at this

22 time and the petition is granted, Mr. Schiavo will

23 inherit those funds of Theresa's Schiavo's

24 intestate. You will hear testimony that Mr. and

25 Mrs. Schindler also, if the petition is denied and

13
1 Mr. Schiavo does remarry, will be Theresa's

2 intestate heirs and will inherit.

3 At the end of the evidence, the Court I

4 believe will conclude that Mr. Schiavo is not

5 concerned with finances, with money, financial

6 gain, but always has been concerned with the best

7 interests of his wife. You will also hear

8 evidence regarding the time period that has

9 elapsed since Terri's incident and the request to

10 remove the feeding tube. It has been ten years,

11 and the argument has been made and was made by the

12 guardian ad litem's report that is in the file

13 that that somehow affects Mr. Schiavo's

14 credibility.

15 The Court will hear evidence for the

16 first four years or so that Mr. Schiavo

17 aggressively, aggressively treated or tried to

18 seek treatment for Terri in the hope of recovery.

19 Despite doctor's advice there was no hope, he did

20 not give up hope. And I believe the evidence will

21 show he can't be faulted for trying as hard as he

22 did to help his wife in the hope of recovery.

23 In 1994, at the suggestion of his

24 doctors, the Court will hear that Mr. Schiavo made

25 a decision not to treat an infection, which would

14
1 have resulted in Terri's death. In response to

2 that, Your Honor, the evidence will show that Mr.

3 and Mrs. Schindler amended their petition to

4 remove Mr. Schiavo as guardian, alleging he was

5 not treating the infection and alleging that

6 constituted an abuse of Terri.

7 The evidence will show that at that

8 time, my client was emotionally unable to proceed.

9 After making a decision not to treat an infection,

10 he was attacked for it and not emotionally able to

11 proceed with the removal of the feeding tube.

12 That about a year later, he started to take steps

13 to do that which has resulted in this petition.

14 The Court will, as part of the evidence

15 in this case, review the report of the guardian ad

16 litem and also the suggestion of bias filed in

17 response. The Court will also hear testimony that

18 the guardian ad litem at the time he issued his

19 report had one piece of evidence regarding Terri's

20 intent and that was the statements relayed to him

21 by Mr. Schiavo. You will hear the guardian ad

22 litem testify that had he known of the statements

23 of Mr. Schiavo's brother and sister in law, that

24 his conclusions may very well have been

25 different.

15
1 You will also hear testimony regarding

2 the guardian ad litem of his personal findings

3 regarding removal of feeding tubes. The guardian

4 ad litem has been very candid, and the evidence

5 will show, personally, he has great difficulty

6 with placing removal of artificial provision of

7 sustenance as medical treatment, which is the law

8 in Florida.

9 You will hear testimony of the guardian

10 ad litem to the effect that he believes patients

11 should not have the right, although the Supreme

12 Court of Florida has given the patient the right

13 to cease food and water, in his belief that should

14 not be the case and the patient should not have

15 that right. We will argue to the Court that may

16 have affected the close call, and I use the words

17 of the guardian ad litem, the close call he made

18 in his report.

19 We believe at the conclusion of the case

20 the Court will find clear and convincing evidence

21 that Theresa Schiavo would not want to be kept

22 alive in this condition and would want the feeding

23 tube removed. Also, if it's necessary for the

24 Court's determination, we believe the Court will

25 find the removal of the feeding tube is in Theresa

16
1 Schiavo's best interest. I say, if necessary,

2 Your Honor.

3 Obviously, the primary question before

4 the Court is Theresa's intent. If the Court does

5 not find clear and convincing intent, which we

6 believe the Court will do, but if that should

7 occur, we intend to argue to the Court that the

8 Court does have the authority, absent clear and

9 convincing evidence of intent under a best

10 interest test, to grant the petition.

11 Your Honor, in closing here, while the

12 petitioner agrees that life is sacred and should

13 be preserved, he also believes, and we will

14 suggest to the Court, that neither the law, nor

15 Theresa's religion, or moral dictates would

16 require that life be artificially preserved at all

17 costs. Thank you.

18 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Felos.

19 Ms. Campbell.

20 MS. CAMPBELL: Mr. Felos has already

21 very eloquently and accurately set forth a lot of

22 the history in this case going over the dates and

23 times of the testimony dictated here in the next

24 week. Our differences where we come is as to what

25 the Court will find and also the credibility of

17
1 the witnesses.

2 Mr. Felos has his witnesses that will

3 tell what Ms. Terri Schiavo's wishes would be

4 regarding the feeding tube. You will also hear

5 from our side of it. On our side, you will hear

6 from a long childhood friend of Terri's. You will

7 also hear from a co-worker that was more closely

8 related to Terri close to the time of the incident

9 of the accident, which was February of 1990.

10 You will hear a lot of medical testimony

11 concerning the persistent vegetative state that

12 Theresa Schiavo currently exists in. We do not

13 doubt she's in a permanent vegetative state.

14 However, a lot goes to the cognitive activity and

15 brain activity of Theresa Schiavo. In reading

16 through some of the medical records, you will hear

17 testimony about her no recognition. However, you

18 will hear testimony from our side there is

19 recognition. She does recognize her mother.

20 There is a videotape we would like for

21 the Court to see, very brief, that is a videotape

22 capturing this relationship between Terri and her

23 mother that was recently taken. The guardian ad

24 litem, Richard Pearse, who was appointed in this

25 case, he will be testifying. The guardian ad

18
1 litem was appointed to investigate and make a

2 report to this Court, which he did, which the

3 court file contains a copy of his report.

4 Mr. Pearse thoroughly investigated the

5 whole case and interviewed various witnesses; met

6 with people at the nursing home staff; saw

7 different physicians; and came to the ultimate

8 conclusion that the feeding tube should be

9 maintained. It's our position here that the

10 guiding case for the court in setting precedence

11 is the Estele Browning case, which sets forth that

12 clear and convincing evidence should be

13 established of the patient's wishes, and that if

14 it's oral evidence, that the petitioner would bear

15 the burden of showing this was by clear and

16 convincing evidence.

17 We do not believe, as the guardian ad

18 litem also found, that the evidence you will hear

19 is credible. We have contradictory evidence that

20 will show in fact that it is not credible as to

21 what her wishes her. You will also hear from her

22 long time childhood friend that when the Karen Ann

23 Quinlan case was being discussed in conversations

24 between Terri Schiavo and this long childhood

25 friend regarding the Karen Ann Quinlan case, which

19
1 we believe ultimately sets forth Terri's beliefs,

2 it would be in the situation she is in one that

3 she would not ultimately choose to be in the

4 situation she is in, but the circumstances she

5 faces, that Theresa Schiavo would want to maintain

6 her feeding tube.

7 As a public policy statement, we also

8 believe the Court is firmly held to review the

9 conflict of interest of Michael Schiavo and the

10 financial situation that would rest in the

11 intestate estate. There is case law precedent to

12 that which we will be arguing in our closing

13 argument that we believe firmly sets forth this

14 conflict of interest. Thank you and good luck for

15 this week.

16 THE COURT: Call your first witness.

17 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor. Call

18 Mr. Schiavo.

19 THE COURT: Call your first witness.

20 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor. Call

21 Mr. Schiavo.

22 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY

23 THE COURT.)

24

25

20
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. FELOS:

3 Q State your full name and current address

4 for the record, please.

5 A My name is Michael Schiavo. My address

6 is 2807 Marie Court, Clearwater, Florida.

7 Q What is your date of birth?

8 A 4-3-63.

9 Q Mr. Schiavo, how are you employed at

10 this time?

11 A I work for Morton Plant/Mease

12 Countryside Hospital as a respiratory therapist.

13 Q Please tell the Court what your

14 employment background is.

15 A I worked for Morton Plant/Mease ever

16 since I became a respiratory therapist five years

17 ago.

18 Q Before that?

19 A I worked for various amounts of

20 restaurants. Right before I got into medical, I

21 worked for Agostino's Restaurant.

22 Q Um-hmm.

23 A Prior to that, I worked for the

24 Columbia. And prior to that, I worked for the

25 Breckenridge Hotel.

21
1 Q Tell the Court, please, what your

2 educational background is.

3 A I went to community college for about a

4 year-and-a-half in the Philadelphia area. Bucks

5 County Community College, starting, I believe, in

6 1983. Don't hold me to the dates. I'm not good

7 with dates. I went to St. Pete Junior College. I

8 received a certificate for my EMT license.

9 Q What is that?

10 A Emergency Medical Technician. I went

11 back to school and received an AS degree in

12 respiratory therapy and back to back received my

13 SA in nursing. I just took my boards and passed

14 last week.

15 Q Where did you grow up, Mr. Schiavo?

16 A Levittown, Pennsylvania. Suburb of

17 Philadelphia.

18 Q Tell us about your family background.

19 Are your parents alive? Do you have brothers and

20 sisters?

21 A I have four older brothers. My mother

22 is deceased. It will be three years in July. My

23 father is still alive living here in Florida.

24 Q Did you have a relationship with any of

25 your grandparents?

22
1 A Yes. I did. All my grandparents.

2 Q Do you recall, were any of your

3 grandparents on life support?

4 A Yes. My father's mother.

5 Q How did that come about?

6 A She had a heart attack. Prior to that,

7 she had open heart ten years prior to that. She

8 had a heart attack. She ended up on a ventilator,

9 which was against her wishes. She had a living

10 will in place. A DNR in place.

11 The doctors did intubate her. My family

12 showed up. It was told to the doctor this was not

13 her wishes. Her living will and DNR was shown to

14 the doctor, I believe, and the ventilator was

15 removed.

16 Q Where were you and Terri living when

17 your grandmother died?

18 A Here in Florida. St. Pete Beach.

19 Q Did you attend the funeral?

20 A Yes. We did. We flew up.

21 Q Did Terri know or have a relationship

22 with your grandmother?

23 A She had a close relationship with my

24 grandmother.

25 Q Do you recall any conversations at the

23
1 funeral, the funeral luncheon after that,

2 regarding the issue of your grandmother's life

3 support?

4 A I vaguely remember a conversation that

5 happened, but my brother, Scott, had the

6 conversation. He would know better about the

7 conversation.

8 Q Is there anyone in your family that has

9 a particular reputation for having a good memory?

10 A My brother, Scott. We always tease him

11 about having the mind of an elephant.

12 Q Please tell me how you and Terri met?

13 A At Bucks County Community College in one

14 of our classes. I can't remember which class it

15 was.

16 Q Tell us a little about your courtship

17 with Terri.

18 A Terri and I dated approximately about a

19 year. We did the usual things. Family parties.

20 Movies. We went to dinner a lot. We were engaged

21 probably about a year into our relationship. We

22 were engaged for a year before we got married.

23 Q When did you and Terri marry?

24 A November 10, 1984.

25 Q Where did that occur?

24
1 A In Huntingdon Valley, PA.

2 Q Is that a suburb?

3 A Suburb of Philadelphia.

4 Q Describe for us Terri's personality.

5 A She was a very outspoken person. She

6 believed in what she believed in. But on the

7 other hand, she had a heart of gold. Somebody

8 that was sweet. Very personable. You would meet

9 her and just be charmed with her. Somebody -- to

10 me, she was everything.

11 Q Before you met -- when you met Terri,

12 what was her weight?

13 A Approximately 155 pounds.

14 Q Before you met Terri, had she been

15 heavier?

16 A Yes. She was in her early childhood.

17 Q Did she lose any weight during the

18 course of your marriage?

19 A Terri lost weight throughout the course

20 of our marriage. Yes. She did.

21 Q I would like to show you, Mr. Schiavo,

22 Petitioner's Exhibit Number One and Number Two

23 marked for identification and ask you if you can

24 identify what those are, please.

25 A This young lady right here is Terri.

25
1 That is her sister, Suzanne. This is when they

2 used to go away to -- I forget. They used to stay

3 at a hotel every year. This is Terri in Florida,

4 I believe. Actually on our honeymoon. This is

5 Terri and I. This is a good picture of her. This

6 is Terri right before we left for Florida. This

7 is Terri right here at her brother's graduation.

8 Q In Petitioner's Exhibit Number One, was

9 that the weight of Terri approximately at the time

10 you married her?

11 A The bottom picture? No.

12 Q The top picture?

13 A The top picture, yes.

14 Q In Petitioner's Exhibit Number Two, is

15 that Terri's approximate weight during your

16 marriage?

17 A Yes.

18 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we move to

19 introduce these photos into evidence.

20 THE COURT: Is there an objection?

21 MS. CAMPBELL: No objection, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: So received.

23 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBITS NUMBERS 1 &

24 2 WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

25 Q (By Mr. Felos) Now that the Court has

26
1 had the benefit to see the photographs, I'd like

2 to bring your attention to Petitioner's Exhibit

3 One. If you can explain to the Court what those

4 two pictures are?

5 A The bottom picture here was Terri at a

6 younger age. This is on a family vacation. To

7 the right of her, far right, is her sister,

8 Suzanne. The top picture is, I believe is -- that

9 was our honeymoon.

10 Q Okay. Now Petitioner's Exhibit Number

11 Two, can you explain when approximately these

12 pictures were taken, and where, starting with the

13 upper left?

14 A The upper left, that is Terri and I

15 outside of our apartment at Thunder Bay. I don't

16 know the approximate year of that. Date. To the

17 right of that is a party thrown for us about a

18 week before we left for Florida. That is my

19 mother with her back toward you. My brother and

20 sister-in-law.

21 Down on the bottom on the left with the

22 truck leasing, that is her brother's graduation.

23 That is Terri in the white. That is her sister in

24 the black. To the right of that, that is a

25 picture at Disney World. I believe that is -- I

27
1 don't know the approximate date on that one.

2 The bottom, that is Terri bending down

3 with the blond hair to the right of Santa Claus in

4 the back with the red suit. That is approximately

5 about six or so months prior to her accident.

6 Q Did you notice that Terri was losing

7 weight during the course of the marriage?

8 A Yes. I did.

9 Q To your knowledge, while living with

10 Terri, did you know whether or not she ever had an

11 eating disorder such as anorexia or bulimia?

12 A I did not. No. There was speculation

13 made to that, but there was nothing ever proven in

14 court as to that diagnosis.

15 Q Once you were married, tell us the type

16 of things that Terri and you liked to do together.

17 A After we are were married, I did work a

18 lot. I worked a lot of nights. On the days off

19 that I did have, we would go to the movies. Spent

20 a lot of time with her parents. We would go out

21 to dinner a lot. Spend time at home.

22 Q Were you in love with your wife?

23 A I was deeply in love with my wife and I

24 still am.

25 Q How long did you live in Philadelphia

28
1 after your marriage in 1984?

2 A I believe -- don't hold me to dates. I

3 believe about a year-and-a-half. I'm sure we left

4 for Florida in 1986.

5 Q Did you and Terri socialize with any of

6 your family members?

7 A All the time. We went to frequent

8 birthday parties. We had a lot of little kids.

9 We went to adult parties. Kids' parties.

10 Holidays. We spent a lot of time with family.

11 Q Where did your parents and siblings live

12 at that time?

13 A I'm sorry?

14 Q Where did your parents and siblings live

15 at that time?

16 A My parents lived in Levittown,

17 Pennsylvania. My brother, one brother in Trevose,

18 Pennsylvania. One brother lived in Fairless

19 Hills. One brother lived in Philadelphia. One

20 brother was not married yet. Kind of lived with

21 my parents and had his own place for a while.

22 Q Was that all in the greater Philadelphia

23 area?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Was Terri particularly close to any of

29
1 your brothers or sister-in-laws?

2 A Terri was very close with my brothers.

3 Especially my sister-in-laws and especially my

4 sister-in-law, Joan. They were best friends.

5 Q At that time, how would you describe

6 your relationship with Terri's parents and family

7 while you were living in Philadelphia?

8 A I believe we had a close relationship.

9 She was very close with her brother, Bobby. She

10 was not so close with her sister, Suzanne.

11 Q Did Terri have any close friends in

12 particular in the Philadelphia area?

13 A She had a very close friend, Sue Cobb.

14 She had other acquaintances. Other friends.

15 Q Why is it that you and Terri decided to

16 move to Florida?

17 A We were over the cold. We wanted

18 something new.

19 Q After you and Terri were married, but

20 before you moved to Florida, did you ever take any

21 trips here?

22 A Yes. We did. I remember one

23 especially.

24 Q What was particularly special about that

25 trip?

30
1 A That is before we left her grandmother

2 was gravely ill.

3 Q Um-hmm. Did Terri have any concerns

4 about taking the trip to Florida given her

5 grandmother's condition?

6 A She was very concerned. She did not

7 want to leave her grandmother. She was pretty ill

8 at the time. She was in the hospital in intensive

9 care.

10 Q Do you know why she decided to take the

11 trip?

12 A Her mother told us to go.

13 Q Did the subject of Terri's grandmother

14 -- by the way, did you fly, drive, or take the

15 train?

16 A We took a train.

17 Q Did the subject of Terri's grandmother

18 come up at all during that train trip?

19 A Yes. It did. We were taking the train

20 trip. We are sitting there. Terri was reading a

21 book. She put the book down and looked at me.

22 She says, "I'm kind of concerned about leaving."

23 I told her, "Your mom said to go." She says,

24 "Well, I'm concerned about my grandmother. What

25 if she dies? Who is going to take care of my

31
1 uncle?" She says, "If I ever have to be a burden

2 to anybody, I don't want to live like that."

3 Q You made reference -- did you say

4 anything in response to that?

5 A I told her that -- I told her that she

6 should remember that for me, too.

7 Q Do you know why Terri made a reference

8 to her uncle in connection with her grandmother's

9 illness?

10 A Years prior, her uncle was in a severe

11 car accident. He was depressed because his wife

12 and child were killed in a car accident. They

13 were hit by a train coming here from the mall. He

14 became, as what Terri says, severely depressed.

15 Had a few drinks one night. Went out. On the

16 drive home, he hit a tree. He ended up in a comma

17 for a few weeks.

18 When he came out of his comma, he was

19 pretty much severely handicapped. Had a lot of

20 impediments. Had to live with his mother.

21 Q Did -- regarding Terri's uncle, did you

22 ever meet him?

23 A Yes. I did.

24 Q You observed his condition?

25 A Yes.

32
1 Q Did you observe any infirmities in the

2 uncle?

3 A Her uncle had paralyzed -- I believe his

4 right arm was paralyzed, I believe. He had a

5 severe limp. He used a cane. He had slurred

6 speech. Difficulty. He had to sit for long

7 periods. He could not get up and move around a

8 lot. Difficulty in thought processes, I believe.

9 That he could not process his thoughts quick

10 enough with his answers.

11 Q Again, why was Terri concerned about her

12 uncle because of her grandmother?

13 A Because he lived with the grandmother

14 and she basically helped take care of him.

15 Q After -- by the way, after the

16 conversation on the train, what happened to

17 Terri's grandmother?

18 A She died while we were here in Florida.

19 Q Michael, did you have any other

20 conversations at all with Terri about removal of

21 life support?

22 A Yes. I did.

23 Q Tell us about those, please.

24 A Terri and I would be home. We would be

25 watching TV. You know, a documentary would come

33
1 on. It would depict you know adults, children

2 that are being sustained and kept alive by parents

3 at home. People that had to be on ventilators.

4 People getting tube feedings. Medications

5 throughout. IVs.

6 She made the comment to me that she

7 would never want to be like that. Don't ever keep

8 her alive on anything artificial. She did not

9 want to live like that. I looked at her and I

10 said do the same for me.

11 Q Do you recall how many conversations

12 like that you had with Terri in response to a TV

13 program or documentary?

14 A It was two, two or three times.

15 Q When you moved to Florida, when you

16 first moved to Florida, where did you live?

17 A We lived in the Schindler's condominium.

18 Q How long did you live there?

19 A Approximately a year.

20 Q Did you pay rent?

21 A We paid rent when we could. The

22 Schindlers were gracious enough to let us slide

23 when we had to. Terri was not working at the

24 time.

25 Q Okay. Then after living in Mr. and Mrs.

34
1 Schindler's condo, where did you live?

2 A We moved to Thunder Bay apartments on

3 4th Street.

4 Q St. Petersburg?

5 A St. Petersburg.

6 Q Tell us a little bit about the logistics

7 of your life down here in terms of schedule. You

8 said Terri did not work initially. Did she

9 eventually find employment?

10 A Terri did not work initially. I started

11 work at Olga's Kitchen as a manager. Terri did

12 not work for a while. About four months. She

13 previously worked at Prudential up north, and she

14 went to Prudential here and they hired her on as a

15 transfer. That is where she stayed.

16 Q Was that Prudential Securities?

17 Prudential Insurance?

18 A Prudential Insurance.

19 Q Did Terri work days or nights?

20 A Days.

21 Q What were your hours?

22 A My hours usually were 4:00 to close.

23 3:00 to close.

24 Q Closing is?

25 A Sometimes midnight. Sometimes 11:00.

35
1 Sometimes I was home at 1:00 in the morning.

2 Q How did Terri feel about you working all

3 those nights?

4 A She was not particularly thrilled with

5 it, but she knew I had to do that.

6 Q Did the two of you -- did Terri have any

7 particularly close friends at Prudential?

8 A She had acquaintances. She had

9 friends. I would not say they were close.

10 Q Did the two of you have any close mutual

11 friends here in Florida?

12 A We did not have mutual friends. We had

13 acquaintances we both knew. We did not have any

14 close mutual friends.

15 Q Did Terri's parents move to Florida at

16 some time?

17 A I believe it was a year later after

18 Terri and I moved here.

19 Q After the Schindlers moved to Florida,

20 but before Terri's medical accident, how would you

21 describe the relationship you and Terri had with

22 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?

23 A I'm sorry. Repeat that question.

24 Q Once the Schindlers moved to Florida,

25 how would you describe the relationship you and

36
1 Terri had with her parents down here? Did you see

2 each other often?

3 A Terri saw the Schindlers probably more

4 than I did. In my own opinion, I thought we were

5 pretty close.

6 Q Tell me a little bit about -- tell us a

7 little about Terri's religious practice from the

8 time you knew her. Well, do you know what faith

9 Terri was brought up?

10 A Terri was brought up Catholic.

11 Q During the time that you knew Terri or

12 let's say from the time you were married, how

13 often would Terri go to mass?

14 A I'm sorry. Repeat that for me, George.

15 Q How often would Terri go to mass?

16 A Not very often. Once every few months.

17 Q Did you go with her?

18 A Yes. I did.

19 Q Every time?

20 A Yes. I did.

21 Q Did Terri ever receive communion when

22 she attended mass?

23 A No. She did not.

24 Q Did Terri ever participate in the

25 sacrament of confession?

37
1 A No. She did not.

2 Q Did you and Terri ever consider having a

3 family?

4 A Yes. We did.

5 Q What was -- what were your feelings

6 about that and Terri's feelings?

7 A Terri adored children. She wanted

8 children desparately, as I did.

9 Q Was there a time when the two of you

10 actually decided to start a family?

11 A Yes. It was --we decided to wait about

12 five years before we really wanted to start a

13 family. It was probably the beginning of 1989 we

14 started, I believe.

15 Q Did Terri ever become pregnant?

16 A No. She did not.

17 Q What was the difficulty?

18 A Terri was not receiving her period.

19 Q Did you or Terri ever seek medical

20 advice or treatment regarding your desire to have

21 children?

22 A Terri did. Yes. She was seeing a

23 family physician and a gynecologist.

24 Q Who was that?

25 A The gynecologist was Dr. Egel.

38
1 Q Did Dr. Egel --

2 A Egel. E-g-e-l.

3 Q What time period was Terri consulting

4 with Dr. Egel in an effort to become pregnant?

5 A I believe starting in the beginning of

6 1989.

7 Q How long did her -- how long did she go

8 to Dr. Egel?

9 A For a period of about a year.

10 Q Michael, tell me what occurred on

11 February 25, 1990.

12 A I got home late from work that night. I

13 came in the house. Terri woke up. She heard me.

14 I gave her a kiss good night. She gave me a kiss

15 good night. A few hours later, I was getting out

16 of bed for some reason and I heard this thud. So

17 I ran out into the hall and I found Terri on the

18 floor. I knelt down next to her and I turned her

19 over because she sort of fell on her face. On her

20 stomach and face.

21 I turned her over going, "Terri, Terri.

22 You okay?" She kind of had this gurgling noise.

23 I laid her down and ran over and called 911. I

24 was hysterical. I called 911. I called her

25 brother, who lived in the same complex as we did.

39
1 I ran back to Terri. She was not moving. I held

2 her in my arms until her brother got there. I

3 rocked her. I didn't know what to do. I was

4 hysterical. It was a horrible moment.

5 Q Do you know how long it was before the

6 paramedics came?

7 A Had to be a good six minutes or so.

8 Q What happened when the paramedics came?

9 A I moved away. Her brother was sitting

10 in the kitchen around the corner. I moved away

11 and they started working on Terri. They put the

12 leads on. I heard them say she is flat line.

13 Start CPR. I am standing there going what is

14 happening here? Why is this happening? Why isn't

15 her heart beating? I was just a mess. I was

16 hysterical.

17 Q Where did the paramedics take her?

18 A To Humana Northside, St. Pete.

19 Q Did you ride with the paramedics?

20 A Yes. I did.

21 Q What is Terri's condition as a result of

22 the incident that occurred on February 25, 1990?

23 A She's in a chronic vegetative state

24 anoxic encephalopathy due to cardiac arrest.

25 Q For those of us who did not go to school

40
1 in medicine --

2 A Lack of oxygen because her heart was not

3 pumping to her brain.

4 Q Can Terri run?

5 A No.

6 Q Can Terri walk?

7 A No.

8 Q Can Terri stand on her own?

9 A No. She can't.

10 Q Sit on her own?

11 A No. She can't.

12 Q Can Terri turn over?

13 A No. She can't.

14 Q Does she talk?

15 A No.

16 Q Can she eat?

17 A No.

18 Q Can she drink?

19 A No. She can't.

20 Q Can she swallow?

21 A No.

22 Q Can she go the bathroom?

23 A No.

24 Q Can she brush her teeth?

25 A No.

41
1 Q Can Terri clip her fingernails?

2 A No.

3 Q Comb her hair?

4 A No.

5 Q Can Terri dress herself?

6 A No. She cannot.

7 Q How are all those activities done for

8 Terri?

9 A I have her in a nursing home. The

10 facility employees do all that for her. She has

11 to be intubated by one person. She wears a diaper

12 which has to be cleaned, and you know, whether she

13 has a BM, they have to change the diaper. Clean

14 her. She has her period, which is at times

15 extremely heavy and messy. They have to clean

16 her. They have to do her hair. Her teeth. They

17 have to do total care for Terri.

18 She can't turn. They have to come in

19 every two hours and turn her. They have to place

20 her in a chair. They have to put the side rails

21 up on the chair to hold her in place.

22 Q Is there a neck support on the chair?

23 A Concave headrest more of. Her head fits

24 into the support.

25 Q In addition to the total care Terri has

42
1 received, I would like you to tell the Court some

2 of the additional medical problems Terri has had.

3 A Terri has had numerous, numerous urinary

4 tract infections. She has had her left little toe

5 removed due to osteomyelitis.

6 Q What is that?

7 A Bone infection that was caused by a

8 pressure sore.

9 Q Has Terri ever had to be hospitalized

10 because of the urinary tract infections?

11 A Yes, she has. Numerous amounts of time

12 for that.

13 Q For the removal of her toe?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Go on.

16 A She has kidney stones. She had her

17 gallbladder removed.

18 Q Did that require hospitalization?

19 A Yes. It did.

20 Q She had vaginitis. She had pelvic

21 inflammatory disease. She had I believe two D and

22 Cs.

23 Q Did the pelvic inflammatory disease, or

24 D and Cs, require hospitalization?

25 A Twenty-four hour admits.

43
1 Q Um-hmm.

2 A She has had respiratory problems. She

3 had dehydration.

4 Q What respiratory problems?

5 A Upper congestion. She can't control her

6 gag. When she fills up, she has to be constantly

7 suctioned down her nose or in the back of her

8 throat. She was put on some aerosol medications

9 that helped dry and relieve the congestion. She

10 has to be watched at those points because she

11 can't control her gag and she will choke.

12 Q Has Terri been hospitalized due to

13 respiratory infections?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Go on, please.

16 A I lost my train of thought.

17 Q Did Terri ever suffer seizures?

18 A Yes. She's suffered seizures. She

19 makes constant muscle twitching. She has severe

20 contractures of the hands, the elbows, the knees,

21 the feet. Her foot drop is to the point where --

22 Q What is a foot drop?

23 A Foot drop is where your foot drops and

24 sticks into a certain spot. Her feet are

25 basically lower than her leg, when she sticks it

44
1 out. She's had a couple cysts removed off her

2 neck. Numerous amounts of things. I'm trying to

3 think. She has a food tube that has been infected

4 a few times that she had to be taken to the doctor

5 to remove.

6 Q Gastronomy tube?

7 A Yes. Infection. Inflammation around

8 that. Due to contractures in elbows, now the skin

9 in between is starting to break down. She's had,

10 she has constant diarrhea which leads to

11 dehydration which leads to --

12 Q Has she ever been hospitalized for

13 dehydration or diarrhea?

14 A She has in the past. This previous

15 dehydration she stayed in the nursing home.

16 Q Michael, you have spent more time with

17 Terri and have seen Terri more often than anyone

18 since her incident. Have you ever seen any

19 voluntary or volitional response on her part in

20 all these years?

21 A I have not.

22 Q Does Terri, does Terri emit any noises?

23 Does her face move? Her head?

24 A Terri will moan, but it's not to

25 anything. We could -- I could be sitting next to

45
1 her and she will start to moan. Her eyes will

2 blink. Her head will kind of twitch. It will

3 kind of move itself. She also has -- she goes

4 into this spasm where she will hyperflex her neck

5 and will make these noises.

6 She will move her, I shouldn't say --

7 her arms move to where it looks like it is

8 tightening up and she is almost sitting in like a

9 praying mantis position. I have never ever seen

10 Terri have any voluntary movement or follow

11 through with any commands.

12 Q Does Terri have tears at times?

13 A I have noticed she had a tear or two,

14 but to me it was after she would kind of take a

15 big deep breath. Almost looks like a yawn, and

16 her eyes would tear.

17 Q Have you ever seen Terri laugh or smile?

18 A I have not seen Terri laugh or smile?

19 She makes a moaning noise and her mouth opens up

20 kind of, but I would not call that a smile.

21 Q Do you know of any treatment method or

22 drug or thing that can be done which will improve

23 Terri's condition?

24 A No. I don't.

25 Q Has any doctor informed you there is any

46
1 treatment method, drug, or thing that can be done

2 to improve Terri's condition?

3 A No.

4 Q What steps, if any, did you take in

5 order to try to improve Terri's condition?

6 A When this first happened I, you know,

7 she was at Bayfront for rehab. And we found this

8 doctor in California that was doing experimental

9 surgeries on people that are in vegetative

10 states. He was placing a stimulator inside their

11 brain in hopes that that would stimulate the

12 dormant cells that were not actually dead yet. I

13 took her there.

14 The doctor was Hoshibushi (phonetic).

15 He was doing experimental surgery. The protocol

16 was one month. There was no improvement from

17 that. I brought Terri back. I hired a private

18 aide.

19 Q Let me backtrack. When was it that you

20 brought Terri to California? Do you recall?

21 A I believe '91. '92.

22 Q That was before the medical malpractice

23 award?

24 A Yes. It was.

25 Q How did you come by the funds in order

47
1 to send Terri to California?

2 A We were on the news. I sold hot dogs on

3 St. Pete Beach. Sold pretzels. The association

4 where we lived got involved with us. Had a

5 Valentine's dance for her. They helped. We

6 raised some money to get her out there.

7 Q Did you go to California with Terri?

8 A Yes. I did.

9 Q You mentioned that stimulators were put

10 into Terri. Where were they put into Terri?

11 A Into her brain. Right on top of the

12 gray matter, which is the top part of your brain.

13 Q How were they -- were these electric

14 stimulators?

15 A It looked like your hand and had wires

16 that came out at a certain point of your brain.

17 It was electrodes in the back. I don't want to

18 say electrodes. I don't know what it was called.

19 Placed here that the wires ran off of. Ran down

20 the side of her neck and would go into her chest.

21 It looked like a pacemaker. They turn off and on

22 at that point.

23 Q An external device?

24 A Right.

25 Q You mentioned when you came back you

48
1 hired a private aide?

2 A Yes. I did.

3 Q Tell me why you did that.

4 A To continue to stimulate Terri. I

5 wanted to make sure she was dressed in everday

6 clothes. I had Diane take her to museums. I had

7 Diane make sure when I was not there that she was

8 taken her for walks. I had Diane take her to

9 museums. To beauty makeovers. I made Terri's

10 hair done the way she did it. Makeup on.

11 Earrings. Necklaces.

12 Q Were any of these efforts successful,

13 Mike?

14 A No. They were not.

15 Q Have you ever received any opinion from

16 any doctor or physician to the effect that Terri

17 has any mental ability?

18 A No. I have not.

19 Q Any opinion from any doctor or physician

20 that she has any cognitive skill or cognitive

21 interaction with her environment?

22 A No. I have not.

23 Q I would like to outline with you Terri's

24 care after the accident. You mentioned that she

25 went to Humana Northside?

49
1 A Yes. She did.

2 Q How long was she in Humana Northside?

3 A Approximately two-and-a-half months.

4 Q Was she in the ICU?

5 A Yes. She was. I spent the first

6 sixteen days and nights there. Never left her.

7 Q Where did you sleep?

8 A Sometimes right next to her. Sometimes,

9 most of the times, out in the waiting room on the

10 chairs.

11 Q After those first sixteen days, did

12 you -- how often did you see Terri at Humana

13 Northside?

14 A I came every day.

15 Q Where did Terri go after Humana

16 Northside?

17 A She went to College Harbor.

18 Q What type of facility is that?

19 A Skilled nursing.

20 Q How long did you see Terri at College

21 Harbor?

22 A I saw Terri every day.

23 Q How much time did you spend?

24 A I went in the morning. Left in the

25 evening. Spent 8, 10, 12 hours a day.

50
1 Q After College Harbor, where did Terri

2 go?

3 A She went to Bayfront --

4 Q Um-hmm.

5 A -- Medical Center under the care of

6 Dr. Baras.

7 Q What was the purpose of Bayfront?

8 A She had 90 days of skilled rehab.

9 Q Was there any problem in getting the

10 insurance money for Bayfront?

11 A Yes. There was. I had to actually

12 fight the insurance company for that.

13 Q What type of rehabilitation was given to

14 Terri at Bayfront?

15 A Aggressive rehabilitation. They also

16 got to take the trach out. Remove the trach.

17 Q When you say rehabilitation, is that

18 physical therapy?

19 A Physical, occupational. Special

20 therapists worked with her.

21 Q Other than removing the trach, was

22 there any improvement in Terri's condition?

23 A No. There was not.

24 Q How often did you see Terri at Bayfront?

25 A I was there every day.

51
1 Q Where did Terri go after Bayfront?

2 A She went to my home.

3 Q How long was Terri at home?

4 A Approximately four months, I believe.

5 Q Who took care of her at your home?

6 A I did 98 percent of it. My

7 mother in law did help. My father-in-law

8 basically did not do much at all.

9 Q Were your in-laws living with you at

10 that time?

11 A Yes. They were.

12 Q Why is it you said she was home for

13 about four months? Why didn't she stay home

14 longer than that?

15 A Because Terri needs total care. It is a

16 lot of work. We could not afford nurses. I could

17 not do it by myself. My mother-in-law was afraid

18 to have her there. My father-in-law was concerned

19 about that.

20 Q Did your mother-in-law express why she

21 was afraid?

22 A In case something happened to Terri that

23 she didn't know how to do.

24 Q After Terri was at home, where did she

25 go?

52
1 A She went back to College Harbor.

2 Q How long was she there?

3 A She was there for a couple of weeks.

4 Q How often did you see her at College

5 Harbor?

6 A Every day.

7 Q And from College Harbor?

8 A She went to California.

9 Q Where were you in California for this

10 experimental treatment?

11 A We went to the University of California

12 at San Francisco Hospital.

13 Q How long were you there?

14 A At the hospital, itself, we were there

15 about a week. For the rehab portion, we were

16 there about a month. A little over a month and a

17 week.

18 Q How often did you see Terri in the

19 hospital in the rehab in California?

20 A At the hospital, I stayed in her room 24

21 hours a day. I slept in a cot next to her. At

22 the rehab center, I was there every day with her.

23 Morning, noon, and night.

24 Q When you came home from California,

25 where did Terri go?

53
1 A She came home with us, with me, for a

2 couple of weeks.

3 Q Who took care of her at home?

4 A I did, plus we were able to, since we

5 had the money from the fund raisers, we were able

6 to afford a couple of nurses to come in and help

7 us.

8 Q After Terri was at home a short time,

9 after that where did she go?

10 A Bradenton Medical Rehab.

11 Q What type of institution is Mediplex

12 (phonetic)?

13 A Mediplex deals mainly with brain

14 injury, strokes, anything that has to do with the

15 brain.

16 Q How long was Terri at Mediplex in

17 Bradenton?

18 A Approximately three months.

19 Q Why did Terri leave Mediplex?

20 A Because the doctors informed us there

21 was nothing more they can do for Terri and we had

22 to find a facility to put her in or take her home.

23 Q How often did you see Terri at Mediplex

24 in Bradenton?

25 A Every day.

54
1 Q Where did Terri go after Mediplex?

2 A Sabal Palms.

3 Q where is that located?

4 A In Largo, I believe.

5 Q At Sabal Palms, did you have any

6 conflicts or disputes with the nursing home

7 regarding Terri's case?

8 A Yes. I did. I had many conflicts and

9 disputes. They had a lot of agency nurses on the

10 floor and they did not have enough staff. Terri

11 was getting the wrong medications. Terri was

12 laying in her dirty diaper for hours and hours on

13 end. Many grievances. She was not getting her

14 shower. Her teeth were not getting done. her

15 medication to her mouth was not put on. When she

16 had the osteomyelitis, it was not cleaned properly

17 after the hospitalization.

18 They did not have enough CNAs on the

19 floor to care for the people and the amount of

20 care that was needed for certain people.

21 Q What did you do to make sure that those

22 deficiencies did not affect Terri's care?

23 A I went through the grievance policy that

24 they give to the family members when there is a

25 problem.

55
1 Q What were those?

2 A It was a form you filled out. The

3 grievance. You handed it in. The Director of

4 Nurses would read them and supposedly they would

5 fix them. And they would write you a little

6 letter back, and most of the time nothing was done

7 because they did not have enough staff to handle

8 the problems.

9 Q Were you a particularly popular person

10 with the nursing home administration?

11 A No. I was not.

12 Q At some point, did the nursing home take

13 some sort of legal action against you?

14 A Yes. They did.

15 Q Tell us about that, please.

16 A They basically tried to have me

17 restrained from the nursing home.

18 Q What was -- how did that play out,

19 Mr. Schiavo?

20 A It kind of coincided with the

21 Schindler's petition.

22 Q Was the nursing home successful?

23 A They were not.

24 Q Did the court appoint a guardian ad

25 litem to investigate the nursing home charges?

56
1 A Yes.

2 Q Did the guardian ad litem issue a

3 report?

4 A Yes. He did.

5 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we, at the

6 status conference last week, agreed to take

7 judicial notice of the prior matters in the file,

8 but for convenience, I would like to introduce

9 into evidence Petitioner's Exhibit Number Three

10 which are certain pleadings and documents from

11 prior proceedings.

12 THE COURT: Is there an objection?

13 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Thank you. They will be

15 received as Petitioner's Number Three.

16 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 3 WAS

17 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

18 Q (By Mr. Felos) Mr. Schiavo, I would

19 like you to read a paragraph from the report of

20 John Pacaric, (phonetic). Report of the guardian

21 ad litem. This is the paragraph that starts on

22 the bottom of Page 2 of the report and ends on top

23 of Page 3.

24 A The guardian of the person, Michael

25 Schiavo, is reported by everyone interviewed to be

57
1 attentive to the pleas of his wife. He is at the

2 nursing home on almost a daily basis. He is

3 constantly reviewing the ward's chart at the

4 nursing home and not hesitant to point out errors

5 and omissions in the care of his wife. There are

6 reported incidents of the guardian yelling and

7 screaming in the hallways, nurses in tears, and

8 intimidation of the staff by Mr. Schiavo.

9 Although I have concluded Mr. Schiavo is

10 a nursing home administrator's nightmare, I

11 believe that the ward gets care and attention from

12 the staff at Sabal Palms as a result of Mr.

13 Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf. A

14 family member of another resident at Sabal Palms

15 reports that his relative receives less care as a

16 result of the staff spending so much time with

17 Mrs. Schiavo.

18 Q How often did you see Terri at Sabal

19 Palms?

20 A Every day at Sabal Palms.

21 Q How long was she there?

22 A Approximately two years, I want to say.

23 Q How long would you see her?

24 A Um, 8, 10 hours a day.

25 Q Did you have a dispute with Mr. and Mrs.

58
1 Schindler at Sabal Palms Nursing Home in February

2 of 1993?

3 A Yes. I did.

4 Q Describe, please, what happened at Sabal

5 Palms on February 14, 1993.

6 A February 14th I was in Theresa's room.

7 I had the door closed. I was studying for some

8 homework I had. The Schindlers came into the room

9 and they went over and said hello to Theresa. The

10 first words out of my father-in-law's mouth was

11 how much money he was going to get. I was, what

12 do you mean? Well, you owe me money.

13 I said to him to stop everything. I

14 said I did not receive any money. I gave it all

15 to Terri. He then, in turn, pointed at Terri and

16 said how much money is she going to give me. I

17 said to him you need to talk to the guardian of

18 the property. I'm not that person. With that, he

19 call me a few choice words, went out and slammed

20 the door.

21 With those words, I followed him and my

22 mother-in-law stepped in the way. She started

23 saying this is my daughter, our daughter, and we

24 deserve some of that money.

25 Q Mr. Schiavo, do you know what money

59
1 Mr. Schindler was talking about?

2 A He was talking about the award that I

3 received.

4 Q Approximately how much did you receive

5 net in your loss of consortium award?

6 A Approximately 300,000.

7 Q Was Mr. Schindler -- let me backtrack.

8 When did that case come to trial?

9 A The malpractice?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Um.

12 Q Does November '92 sound right to you?

13 A Yes.

14 Q How much in funds did Terri receive net?

15 A I think she netted 700,000.

16 Q Who was sued?

17 A The doctors were. Doctor Egel and

18 Power.

19 Q The gynecologist Terri was seeing to

20 become pregnant?

21 A Right. And the family doctor.

22 Q Was Mr. Schindler aware of the

23 malpractice proceeding?

24 A Yes.

25 Q He attended the trial?

60
1 A Yes.

2 Q Do you know whether or not he was there

3 the day the verdict was entered?

4 A Yes. He was there with pencil and

5 paper. He wrote the verdict amounts down to the

6 point that he was so upset that he thought the

7 judge did not calculate right. He could not go to

8 work the next day.

9 Q Did Mr. Schindler ever tell you why he

10 thought he was entitled to a portion of your loss

11 of consortium award?

12 A Because it was his daughter and he

13 deserved it.

14 Q Did you ever say to Mr. and Mrs.

15 Schindler that you would split with them your loss

16 of consortium award or pay them any portion of it?

17 A No. I did not.

18 Q I think you testified that you told

19 Mr. Schindler that you gave your money away?

20 A Yes. I did.

21 Q Was that a correct statement?

22 A No. It was not.

23 Q Why did you say this?

24 A Just basically to shut him up because he

25 was screaming.

61
1 Q At that time, in that dispute with

2 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler that day, was there any

3 discussion of lawsuits or lawyers?

4 A Yes. I got through. My mother-in-law

5 went outside. He was standing there. His fists

6 were clenched. He got in my face. Said he's

7 coming down on me. Going to get on this

8 guardianship and he was going to get a lawyer.

9 Q At any time have you told Mr. or Mrs.

10 Schindler that they could not come to the nursing

11 home or visit Terri?

12 A No. I did not.

13 Q did you ever tell the nursing home not

14 to give the Schindlers information on Terri's

15 medical condition?

16 A At one point, yes.

17 Q Why did you do that?

18 A When Terri was in the hospital for, I

19 believe a urinary tract -- no. I forget what she

20 was in the hospital for. It was for some

21 hospitalization. And the Schindlers never showed

22 up or even called about her care.

23 Q Did you change your position about

24 giving the Schindlers access to medical

25 information?

62
1 A Yes. I did.

2 Q Looking back on it, was that a moment

3 that you are proud of?

4 A No. I was not. It was done. It was

5 emotions running. I was angry.

6 Q Back then in 1993, that was still three

7 years after Terri's incident, how were you doing

8 emotionally? How were you taking it?

9 A I'm sorry. Repeat that, George.

10 Q Back in 1993, how well were you coping

11 emotionally with what happened to Terri? How were

12 you doing?

13 A I don't know how I was doing it. I was

14 an emotional wreck. I was seeing a

15 psychiatrist. A psychologist, I should say. I

16 had a lot of unanswered questions of why.

17 Q Did you ever tell your in-laws that

18 Terri would be better off dead than coming out of

19 her coma?

20 A No. I did not, sir.

21 Q Did you ever have a conversation or make

22 a statement about her coming out of the coma?

23 A I made a mention to Mr. Schindler one

24 day out in the hall. I said, this was after

25 probably four or five years of Terri being in this

63
1 condition, I said to him maybe it was in Terri's

2 best interests. It was not feasible to come out

3 and find out you are going to be a quadraplegic

4 and you can't walk anymore.

5 Q On what basis did you believe she would

6 be a quadraplegic?

7 A The doctors have told me that in the

8 past.

9 Q How has her (sic) relationship been with

10 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler since the February '93

11 incident?

12 A How has my relationship been?

13 Q Yes.

14 A I have not spoken to them since, except

15 through trials or --

16 Q Have they spoken to you?

17 A No. They have not. I did, on one

18 occasion when Terri had her gallbladder removed, I

19 did on one occasion when the mother called the

20 nursing home, I tried to talk to her and she

21 refused to talk to me.

22 Q Did Mr. Schindler ever follow up on his

23 threat to get a lawyer?

24 A Yes. He did.

25 Q I believe a petition was filed in July

64
1 of 1993. Later that year. What were you sued

2 for, Mr. Schiavo? What was the Schindlers asking

3 the Court to do?

4 A That I was not taking care of Terri. I

5 was seeing other people. And that I was in

6 conflict due to her money that if Terri died I

7 would inherit it.

8 Q Mr. Schiavo, since Terri's incident, did

9 you have any intimate relations with another

10 woman?

11 A Yes. I did.

12 Q When did that occur?

13 A Approximately five years after the

14 incident. I don't know the exact dates.

15 Q How long did that relationship last?

16 A Approximately eight months.

17 Q Did Mr. and Mrs. Schindler know about

18 it?

19 A Yes. They did. Mr. Schindler wanted me

20 to do it. He condoned it, along with Mrs.

21 Schindler. They met the person I was seeing.

22 Q Do you currently have an intimate

23 relationship with a woman?

24 A Yes. I do.

25 Q How long have you known her?

65
1 A Five-and-a-half years.

2 Q Would you like to have a family

3 sometime?

4 A Very much so.

5 Q Because you're involved, because you

6 have a relationship with someone else, does that

7 mean you don't love Terri?

8 A I love Terri very deeply. I always

9 will.

10 Q Michael, does your petition have

11 anything to do with Terri's money at all?

12 A No. It does not.

13 Q How was the lawsuit the Schindler's

14 brought against you disposed of?

15 A They dismissed their case with prejudice

16 as long as I would not seek attorney's fees.

17 Q At some point in time, did you move

18 Terri from Sabal Palms Nursing Center?

19 A Yes. I did.

20 Q Where did Terri move to?

21 A Palm Garden, Largo.

22 Q Is that where she is currently staying?

23 A Yes. It is.

24 Q When did that occur?

25 A 1996, I believe.

66
1 Q How often did you -- how often do you

2 see Terri at Palm Garden in Largo?

3 A Currently?

4 Q Yes.

5 A Once or twice a week.

6 Q What do you do? How long do you stay?

7 What do you do when you see Terri?

8 A An hour-and-a-half, two hours. I

9 usually get there when Olga is bringing her out of

10 the shower. Help lift her. Get her dressed.

11 Usually blow dry her hair. Dry her hands off.

12 Put her pads in her hands. Usually check over her

13 skin. Make sure she does not have any tears or

14 whatever.

15 Q Do you still buy Terri's clothes for

16 her?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Do you still help dress Terri?

19 A Yes. Make sure she has her haircut

20 appointment. Do her wash. Make sure all her

21 needs are met.

22 Q By the way, Mr. Schiavo, all the times

23 that Terri has been hospitalized, how many times

24 would you say Terri has been hospitalized?

25 A Hospitalized?

67
1 Q For the various medical problems you

2 testified to before.

3 A Twenty times.

4 Q Has she ever been in the hospital one

5 day when you were not there?

6 A No. She has not.

7 Q How many times has Terri gone to the

8 doctor?

9 A Over a hundred, 130.

10 Q What is the logistics, mechanism of

11 getting Terri to the doctor?

12 A Depending on what the problem is, prior

13 we used to have to put her in SunStar ambulance.

14 Now she basically is transported by wheelchair

15 transport.

16 Q In those hundred or so doctor visits,

17 has there ever been a doctor visit for Terri where

18 you have not been there with her?

19 A No. There has not. I was there for

20 every one of them.

21 Q Was there a point in Terri's care where

22 you came to the decision that she should not be

23 medically treated for an infection?

24 A Yes. There was.

25 Q When did that occur?

68
1 A I believe it was in '94. '93, '94.

2 Q When did -- tell me how that came about?

3 A I took Terri to the doctors for a

4 bladder infection. The doctor recommended that we

5 don't treat the infection and that Terri should

6 have a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in place.

7 Q How did you feel about that when you

8 heard that?

9 A I was emotional, but I felt it was what

10 Terri would want.

11 Q Did you bring up the subject of the DNR

12 order, not treating the infection, first?

13 A No. The doctor did.

14 Q Did you make a decision to implement,

15 institute, a Do Not Resuscitate order and Do Not

16 Treat The Infection?

17 A Yes. I did.

18 Q What would have been the medical

19 consequences of not treating that infection?

20 A Terri -- the infection would basically

21 turn into a septic-type infection throughout her

22 body. It would naturally shut down her organs.

23 A painless process.

24 Q Was that decision implemented?

25 A Yes. It was.

69
1 Q Did the nursing home react to it at all?

2 A Yes. They did. They started getting

3 all upset. Telling me it was against the law to

4 do something like that.

5 Q How did -- did Mr. and Mrs. Schindler do

6 anything in response to your decision not to treat

7 the infection?

8 A They amended their original petition

9 and brought the new amended petition against me

10 that I was not treating the infection.

11 Q Didn't they accuse you of abusing Terri

12 by not treating the infection?

13 A Yes. They did.

14 Q Did you back off of the decision at

15 that time?

16 A Yes. I did. I had the nursing home, I

17 had the petition, and my emotions were running.

18 So I backed way off.

19 Q Back then in, I believe it was March of

20 1994, the Schindler's amended their petition in

21 regarding the decision not to treat. At that

22 time, why didn't you pursue removal of the feeding

23 tube?

24 A Because at that time my emotions were

25 running. I couldn't -- I was ready to do the

70
1 natural thing. I was not ready to pull the

2 feeding tube at that time.

3 Q Even though you knew Terri wanted it?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Why were you not able?

6 A It was -- I was not ready for that yet.

7 Q The Schindlers dismissed their petition

8 with prejudice in September of 1995 and this

9 petition was filed in 19 -- your current petition

10 to remove artificial life support was filed in May

11 of 1988 (sic). Why did you wait two-and-a-half

12 years to file the petition?

13 A I did not wait. I met you in the

14 beginning of 1996, I believe. I was talking to

15 another attorney.

16 Q Well, okay. I have to caution you not

17 to testify as to any communication you might have

18 with your attorney because of attorney/client

19 privilege. Let me ask it this way. Did you seek

20 to put into motion your decision to remove the

21 feeding tube before the petition was filed in May

22 of 1988 (sic)?

23 THE COURT: You keep saying '88.

24 MR. FELOS: '98. Thank you.

25 Your Honor.

71
1 Q (By Mr. Felos) When did you make the

2 decision and start putting it in motion?

3 A In 1995. End of 1995.

4 Q Mr. Schiavo, I would like to show you

5 Petitioner's Exhibit Number Four for

6 identification and ask you if you can identify

7 what those are.

8 A This is an affidavit from Dr. Gambone.

9 I believe it explains Terri's condition.

10 Q Affidavit of Dr. Gambone and affidavit

11 of --

12 A I'm sorry. James Barnhill.

13 Q And?

14 A Dr. Kamp.

15 MR. FELOS: Your Honor. I move to

16 introduce these into evidence as Petitioner's

17 Exhibit Number Four.

18 THE COURT: Is there an objection?

19 MS. CAMPBELL: No objection.

20 THE COURT: Thank you. They will be so

21 received.

22 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 4 WAS

23 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)

24 Q (By Mr. Felos) Mr. Schiavo, you

25 mentioned that your mother passed away. When did

72
1 that occur?

2 A 1997. July.

3 Q Did that experience at all affect your

4 decision to bring this petition?

5 A My mother gave me a gift when she was

6 dying. We stopped her feeding because that is

7 what she wanted, and her medications. She gave me

8 that gift that it was okay to die.

9 Q Mr. Schiavo, why have you filed this

10 petition? Why are you asking the Court for

11 permission to remove Terri's feeding tube?

12 A Because that is what Terri wanted, and

13 it's my responsibility because I love her so much

14 to follow out what she wanted.

15 MR. FELOS: Thank you. No further

16 questions.

17 THE COURT: Why don't we take a short

18 break. Five minutes ought to be enough to stretch

19 and use the facilities and get back.

20 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in

21 recess.

22 (THEREUPON, A RECESS WAS HAD FROM 10:40 -

23 10:50 A.M.)

24 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, may I step out

25 and find co-counsel?

73
1 THE COURT: Yes, sir.

2 THE BAILIFF: Circuit court is back in

3 session.

4 THE COURT: Thank you.

5 MR. FELOS: May we approach a moment?

6 (THEREUPON, THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE

7 HAD AT THE BENCH.)

8 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, my client

9 requests that the proceedings not be recorded by

10 the media, and he believes that it would impair

11 the privacy rights of the ward and we make that

12 request.

13 THE COURT: What is the legal basis for

14 that? Is there any authority for keeping the

15 media out of here?

16 MR. FELOS: I have not researched the

17 issue, Your Honor. I have no case to present.

18 THE COURT: The bases are juvenile

19 proceedings are private and they cannot be in

20 those, but they can be outside the court. It's

21 interesting they can take --

22 MR. FELOS: There is some precedent in

23 the guardianship statute. There is a provision

24 for the court to be closed in incompetency

25 proceedings.

74

1 THE COURT: Incompetency proceedings.

2 And I have so ruled the media had no right to

3 those files or proceedings. This is different.

4 Do you know of any authority?

5 MS. CAMPBELL: I don't know of any.

6 While I'd like to see it agreed to, I don't know

7 of any legal authority that we could, because I

8 don't think there is anything under Chapter 119.

9 THE COURT: Absent authority, I don't

10 know how I can ask them to leave. If you would

11 like to take an additional recess and see if you

12 can prevail upon them, I'm willing to do that, but

13 I don't know of any legal authority for them to

14 not be here.

15 MR. FELOS: Then I say let's proceed, if

16 that is the ruling of the Court.

17 THE COURT: Thank you.

18 CROSS-EXAMINATION

19 BY MS. CAMPBELL:

20 Q Good morning, Mr. Schiavo. As you

21 recall, I am Pam Campbell. I represent Mr. and

22 Mrs. Schindler.

23 A Good morning.

24 Q The relationship that you currently

25 have, the lady's name, is it Jody Sintonsay

75
1 (phonetic)?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Could you describe that relationship for

4 me?

5 A We are boyfriend/girlfriend. We live

6 together.

7 Q Would you consider her your fiancee?

8 A I would consider her -- yes. Yes.

9 Q Has she ever been so noticed as anything

10 in writing in the newspaper as your fiancee?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You and she own a house together; is

13 that correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Can you recall going on the train tip

16 incident that you referred to with Mr. Felos, can

17 can you recall the time frame when you and Terri

18 were coming on the train to Florida?

19 A What do you mean the time frame?

20 Q When was that?

21 A I believe it was in '86.

22 Q 1986?

23 A Yeah. '86. I'm not good with dates and

24 times, like I told you before.

25 Q Wasn't it in October of 1985?

76
1 A I don't recall the month. It was the

2 month that her grandmother passed away.

3 Q You were married November of '84?

4 A November 10th. Yes.

5 Q You came to the Schindlers' condominium

6 in St. Petersburg for a honeymoon right after

7 that?

8 A Correct.

9 Q Then in '85, the spring of '85, did you

10 come back to St. Petersburg for a vacation?

11 A Did we come back?

12 Q A plane trip?

13 A I don't believe so. I don't recall

14 that.

15 Q After Terri's accident, which was

16 February 1990, were you employed at that time?

17 A After Terri's accident? Yes. I was.

18 Q Shortly after the accident, didn't you

19 stop working at Agostino's?

20 A Yes.

21 Q When did you then become reemployed?

22 A I went back to Agostino's for a month or

23 so. I worked part-time for them. They were under

24 new ownership so -- and that went belly up. Then

25 I just -- I didn't work. I went back to school in

77
1 '93, I believe.

2 Q And you began your employment with

3 Morton Plant in 1996?

4 A Correct.

5 Q So basically from the beginning of 1990

6 until 1996 you were unemployed; is that correct?

7 A Yes.

8 Q You were talking about some of the fund

9 raisers that you testified to previously. Can you

10 tell me about some of the details of the fund

11 raisers?

12 A We sold hot dogs, or I sold hot dogs on

13 St. Petersburg Beach. We sold pretzels at the

14 Publix. We had a Valentine's Day dance for her

15 with the association. The association I believe,

16 around Christmas, they put a luminary -- you buy

17 the bag in Terri's name. They did that on St.

18 Pete Beach to help raise money.

19 Q where were all those funds that you were

20 raising, where were they being maintained?

21 A At First Union Bank.

22 Q Did she work for Prudential at the time?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did the Prudential employees get

25 together and have a fund raiser?

78
1 A I don't recall. I don't remember that.

2 Q Was there a fund raiser promoted by the

3 St. Petersburg Times, Channel 10 and Channel 8?

4 A Yes. I said I was on the news.

5 Q About how much money did all those

6 different fund raisers raise?

7 A Probably close to about 20,000. I'm not

8 sure. You would have to check on the old

9 records.

10 Q Did you also receive a payment, pay-out,

11 from Prudential from insurance proceeds that Terri

12 was entitled to?

13 A It was her life insurance, yes, that she

14 was entitled to.

15 Q How much was that?

16 A 10,000.

17 Q Did you also receive Terri's social

18 security checks during that time frame?

19 A No. Terri could not get social security

20 because she was still receiving her payment from

21 work.

22 Q Did you receive any SSI from Terri?

23 A No.

24 Q Did you move to Florida from

25 Philadelphia in April 1986?

79
1 A That sounds correct.

2 Q And you lived in the Schindlers' condo?

3 A Yes. We did.

4 Q How much rent were you paying at the

5 time?

6 A I don't recall.

7 Q About $400 a month?

8 A Sounds correct. Yeah.

9 Q Now you testified previously that

10 afterwards you moved to Thunder Bay. Isn't it

11 true that you moved to McGregor Place?

12 A Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I forgot about

13 that one.

14 Q You moved to McGregor Place in September

15 1989; is that correct?

16 A I don't remember the date.

17 Q If you could bear with me and listen to

18 the time frame. I believe you testified that you

19 moved into the Schindlers' condo in April of '86

20 and then moved to McGregor Place, I'm asking you,

21 in 1989? Was it previously to --

22 A I don't recall the dates, ma'am.

23 Q Was it right prior to Terri's accident,

24 which would have been in February 1990?

25 A I don't recall the dates that we moved

80
1 in there and moved around. The accident happened

2 at Thunder Bay.

3 Q How long did you live in McGregor Place?

4 A I just remembered it. I don't

5 remember.

6 Q Months?

7 A It was a few months. Yeah.

8 Q How long did you live in Thunder Bay

9 prior to Terri's accident?

10 A Eight months, I believe. I'm not sure.

11 Q During that entire time that you were

12 living in the Schindlers' condo, from '86 until

13 sometime in '89, were you paying rent consistently

14 during that time?

15 A No. We were not.

16 MR. FELOS: Objection. I believe that

17 is a mischaracterization of his testimony. He

18 didn't testify that he lived in the Schindler's

19 condo from '86 to 1989.

20 THE COURT: I'll overrule the

21 objection. I think there is enough in there to

22 allow that kind of question.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Repeat the

24 question.

25 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did you pay rent to

81
1 the Schindlers then during that entire time you

2 were living in the Schindler's condo?

3 A No. They were gracious and let us slide

4 a couple months when we could not afford it.

5 Q Just a few months?

6 A I don't remember how many months, ma'am.

7 Q Did the Schindlers assist you in moving

8 from Philadelphia to St. Petersburg?

9 A No. I don't recall.

10 Q Did they contribute $900 for your moving

11 expenses?

12 A I don't recall that.

13 Q When you moved from the Schindlers'

14 condo, is it your testimony then that you moved

15 from the Schindlers' condo to McGregor Place?

16 A That would have to be. Yeah.

17 Q When you moved from the condo to

18 McGregor Place, did the Schindlers loan you money

19 at that time to secure a new apartment?

20 A I don't recall.

21 Q Right after Terri's accident, wasn't

22 Mrs. Schindler right there by your side helping

23 with Terri each step of the way?

24 A Not all the time. No.

25 Q Would you describe your relationship as

82
1 close in trying to assist Terri?

2 A My mother-in-law and I were close. Yes.

3 Q In February of 1991, a year after the

4 accident, didn't you, the three of you, live

5 together?

6 A Yes.

7 Q You and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?

8 A Yes.

9 Q With the hopes that Terri would then

10 ultimately come home and live there with you?

11 A Yes.

12 Q At that time, were you sharing in the

13 expenses, you and the Schindlers?

14 A Which home are you speaking of?

15 Q Hemosita in Del Mar?

16 A That home was in my name. I was paying

17 half the rent. Mr. and Mrs. Schindler and their

18 daughter were paying the other half.

19 Q Other expenses that you shared, Florida

20 Power, telephone bill, they were shared as well?

21 A Yes.

22 Q You were in the larger home with hopes

23 that Terri would be able to come and live there

24 with you?

25 A We were in the larger home, but it was

83
1 not with the hopes that Terri could live with us.

2 Because we only rented the place.

3 Q Was there a reason why it was in, the

4 lease was in your name as opposed to

5 Mr. Schindler's name?

6 A Because Mr. and Mrs. Schindler went

7 bankrupt and they could not get credit.

8 Q But you all shared the home equally?

9 A Mr. and Mrs. Schindler and Suzanne and

10 myself.

11 Q Was there a time then in that you moved

12 from that house to another house with the

13 Schindlers?

14 A No.

15 Q When you were describing the different

16 places where Terri went, from Northside to

17 Bayfront and to the Mediplex, College Harbor,

18 would Mrs. Schindler go with you to those

19 individual facilities to visit Terri?

20 A She went. Yes. But not all the time.

21 Q The time Terri was home living in the

22 home with you, Mrs. Schindler lived there, too?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Did she assist you in taking care of

25 Terri during that time frame?

84
1 A Yes. She did.

2 Q The incident then that happened, the

3 disagreement in Terri's room in February of 1993

4 between you and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler, to that

5 time frame, was it shortly thereafter that you

6 decided to withhold medical information from the

7 Schindlers?

8 A I don't know the exact time frame, but I

9 believe it was.

10 Q Do you recall then how long it was then

11 until you started allowing the Schindlers to learn

12 more about the medical condition of their

13 daughter?

14 A I don't recall the time frame.

15 Q Do you recall in 1996 your attorney,

16 Deborah Bushnell, sending a letter to the

17 Schindlers allowing them to now be able to get

18 information about their daughter?

19 A Yes. I remember that.

20 Q Prior to that kind of communication

21 going in 1996 -- so from '93 to 1996, did you

22 allow the nursing home to talk to Mr. and Mrs.

23 Schindler about their daughter's medical

24 condition?

25 A Yeah. Um-hmm.

85
1 Q It's your testimony here today that the

2 nursing home was permitted, from 1993 to 1996, to

3 discuss Terri's medical condition with the

4 Schindlers?

5 A I believe after I left I told them not

6 to -- to disregard or whatever, that other order.

7 Yeah. I'm not sure of the exact time frame.

8 Q Would it surprise you to know that the

9 nursing home was not giving out information during

10 that time frame to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?

11 MR. FELOS: Objection. Lack of

12 foundation.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 A I'm sorry. Repeat your question.

15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Would it surprise you

16 to know that the nursing home was not giving out

17 information to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler from '93 to

18 '96?

19 A The way Sabal Palms went, it would not

20 surprise me. But I know they get information.

21 Q I'm sorry. What was the last point?

22 A I know they did get information.

23 Q Who do you believe they received

24 information from?

25 A Elaine Nelson. The social worker.

86
1 Q From Sabal Palms?

2 A Yes.

3 Q And the different facilities that you

4 would take Terri to, for example when she would go

5 to Largo Medical Center for hospitalization, were

6 you ever requested as the guardian as to whether

7 or not there were any advanced directives from

8 Theresa Schiavo?

9 A From the hospital?

10 Q Yes.

11 A I don't remember any of those.

12 Q On any of the hospital admission dates,

13 do you recall anyone from admissions going over

14 paperwork with you?

15 A Yeah.

16 Q Do you recall them asking you whether or

17 not Theresa Schiavo had any advanced directives

18 such as a living will?

19 A I don't recall them asking that.

20 Q What do you believe that your testimony

21 would have been to that? What do you think your

22 answer would have been?

23 A If they would have asked me at that time

24 frame that she was --

25 Q The question is whether or not she had a

87
1 living will?

2 A My answer would be no. She does not

3 have a living will.

4 Q Did you ever seek legal assistance or

5 authorize an attorney to demand payment

6 reimbursement to you of the Schindlers for some

7 money for a credit card debt?

8 A This -- I don't recall that.

9 Q In 1993, do you recall an attorney Jan

10 Piper?

11 A Yes. I do.

12 Q Do you recall Mr. Piper sending a letter

13 to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler on your behalf demanding

14 payment of, a refund of some credit card debt?

15 A I remember him sending a letter. I

16 don't know if it was about a credit card.

17 Q What was your recollection of what was

18 the dispute between you and Mr. and Mrs.

19 Schindler?

20 A I don't remember, but I don't think it

21 was a credit card.

22 Q You do recall Mr. Piper sending a letter

23 on your behalf to the Schindlers? A demand

24 letter?

25 A I do recall that. Yes.

88
1 Q Is it your testimony here today that

2 you never agreed with Mr. and Mrs. Schindler to

3 reimburse them for any of the expenses that they

4 had advanced to you and Terri in the way of moving

5 expenses?

6 A I never agreed with them.

7 Q You never agreed to reimburse them?

8 A I never agreed. They never even brought

9 it up.

10 Q So your testimony is today that you and

11 the Schindlers never discussed repayment of any of

12 the loans made to you?

13 A No. We have never discussed that.

14 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, objection. The

15 question is improper because the witness has

16 denied that there were any loans. The question

17 is --

18 THE COURT: The question is did you ever

19 agree to reimburse. I don't know how you

20 categorize it. We can get real technical. I

21 think the Court understands the nature of the

22 question. I will allow it.

23 MS. CAMPBELL: The question went to a

24 discussion between he and the Schindlers, and I

25 believe the answer was no. There was no other

89
1 discussions. No further questions.

2 THE COURT: Thank you. Redirect?

3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. FELOS:

5 Q Just to clarify a couple of things, Mr.

6 Schiavo, there was some testimony about life

7 insurance. Was in fact the payments that Terri

8 received disability payments from Prudential?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Not life insurance benefits?

11 A Yes.

12 Q You also testified about social security

13 benefits. I recall you saying that Terri did not

14 receive social security benefits. Was that during

15 the time she was receiving disability from

16 Prudential?

17 A Say it again to me.

18 Q Did Terri ever -- did Terri ever receive

19 any social security benefits while she was

20 receiving disability payments from Prudential?

21 A No.

22 Q Did she receive social security payments

23 after that?

24 A Yes.

25 Q In fact, are you aware of any written

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