No more computer science please (from India)

The Times of India ^ | March 27, 2004

[MikeJ75]

Fearing job losses due to outsourcing, undergraduates in the US have begun to abandon their studies in computer technology and engineering, says a new study.

Conducted by the Washington-based Computing Research Association, the study will be published in May.

It shows there is a dramatic drop-off in the enrolment of the two subjects - 19 per cent - even as some educators warn about the potential consequences for America's global competitiveness.

Enrolment in undergraduate computer-science courses continued to grow after the collapse of the dotcom bubble until the sharp decline in the 2002-03 academic year, according to the study.

Many students are making rational choices, like 22-year-old Vince Ronan of Daly City, a senior majoring in information systems at San Francisco State University, who plans to pursue a master's in business administration after graduating rather than an advanced degree in technology.

"I don't know about outsourcing, but I know how tough it is to get a good job these days," said Ronan, whose older brother earned a technology degree three years ago but kept his day job as a supermarket checkout clerk, says a report in the San Jose Mercury News .

The Computing Research Association's annual survey says the number of undergraduates enrolled showed a fall from 94,461 to 76,844. This represented an estimated one-third of the total in all institutions.

But researchers said they believed that their findings accurately reflect trends in computer education across the nation.

According to the San Jose Mercury News, enrolment in the computer-science department at the San Jose State University has fallen by one-third over the past three semesters. The number of majors has declined to fewer than 1,400 students from more than 2,000.

Ohio State University's computer and information science department reported that there was a 30 per cent drop in enrolment last year in the computer science department.

The cause is subject to speculation, but many educators say their students are worried at the growing trend of sending software-industry work overseas.

Microsoft chairman Bill Gates went on a tour of major university campuses last month to encourage students to stick to their studies despite the exodus of computer-industry jobs overseas.

Gates even stopped at Harvard University, where he had dropped out as an undergraduate to start his software empire.

"We need your excitement," he said in his pep talk to Harvard students, according to a report in the New York Times.

"Most of these jobs are very interesting and very social -- you work with a lot of smart people. I'm excited about the future of computing, and I'm excited to see how each of you can contribute to it."

It's no secret that Microsoft, as well as nearly every major US technology company, is involved in one way or another in shipping high tech jobs offshore.

Many American companies, including Microsoft, turn to India for cost-cutting reasons. India offers technology work at comparatively cheap prices - about one-ninth the cost of their US counterparts, according to the report.

[ottothedog]

This is the problem with the media overhyping the outsourcing issue. Now all these people are going to become lawyers!

[steplock]

"Fearing job losses due to outsourcing, undergraduates in the US have begun to abandon their studies in computer technology and engineering"

With the "helpful" encouragement of their socialist/communist teachers, the students are dropping the courses that will maintain the American world leadership role in the sciences and technology.

As previously stated ... what can they do? be lawyer scum?

The story does illustrate the intentional dumbing down of American children (adults now). If they cannot destroy us miltarily and directly, they have almost done so through the children with IGNORANT parents - and those parents without the courage to kick out all the socialist/communist/leftist garbage.

Soon, it will be up to the Second Amendment to bring us back to FREEDOM and LEADERSHIP.

[old-ager]

> media overhyping the outsourcing issue

No, it's laid off and burned out engineers and computer programmers telling their kids not to go into computer science or engineering.

Don't pick an argument with me, ok?

[reed_inthe_wind]

I earned a post graduate degree in MIS, but kept my career in finance and audit. Eventually, the perfect opportunity came along, as I was competent in several fields. In my experience, corporations pay big bucks for people who master multi-disciplines.

[Twrch]

When my brother in law was laid off from Boeing, he applied to some work retraining program. They told him that they would not back him to study anything related to computers.

So, he is going to be tug boat captain.

[Arkinsaw]

This is the problem with the media overhyping the outsourcing issue.

That's funny. I remember everyone pooh-poohing the manufacturing jobs going to Mexico saying that we were in the information age and that computer jobs would replace them. Now they are doing the same with the computer jobs. At least they are not trying to fool us by saying that those jobs will be replaced with something better this time.

[Arkinsaw]

So, he is going to be tug boat captain.

Good choice, lots of our scrap metal will be shipped overseas for years to come.

[ottothedog]

Hey I'm a C/S guy myself, so I know the market has been tight. It will be much worse if we don't have a strong pool of trained engineers. I don't believe that outsourcing is the cause of all ills in the IT market. I think with the dot bomb blow out there is a lot of stuff that still needs to be unwound. Just my opinion, your mileage my vary. :)

[Ciexyz]

So, he is going to be a tug boat captain.

Cool! Here's wishing him good luck. Sounds like an interesting job.

[BabsC]

It will be much worse if we don't have a strong pool of trained engineers.

That's what I kept trying to tell the younger people at the office when I retired. The jobs going overseas is more pencil pushing grunt coding, the design and original ideas should still come from the US.

But then you go running into the "government" schools and the ability for individual, original thought is pretty much suppressed.

[ottothedog]

I think you are being overly negative. I guess that my point is I wish people would get serious about making the U.S. the most competitive it can be rather than all the hand wringing.

[valkyrieanne]

No, it is not "encouragement from their socialist teachers." In my teens' high school the counselors are still pushing CS and EE. The *kids themselves* are smarter - they see their parents and friends' parents laid off after being forced to train their replacements. The schools are way behind the curve here.

I think it's disastrous, personally, because to provide for our own *defense* we need a reserve of technically-educated people. Companies that push outsourching *are* traitors, because if you need technical people for *military* reasons, you aren't going to turn Wal-Mart managers into engineers and computer scientists overnight. And you certainly aren't going to hire Indians & Chinese to do critical defense work.

This goes beyond free market economics. It's a matter of securing the common defense.

[valkyrieanne]

At least they are not trying to fool us by saying that those jobs will be replaced with something better this time.

Au contraire. We're all supposed to "retrain" to be PhD biochemists for the biotech industry, didn't you know?

[valkyrieanne]

The jobs going overseas is more pencil pushing grunt coding, the design and original ideas should still come from the US.

Yes, I hear that said a lot. But one little problem. Someone doesn't get good enough in engineering to do top level design and high level management without doing the lower level jobs *first.* In other words, someone has to start out as a coding monkey, when they graduate from college. But those are precisely the jobs being outsourced. Where are all these exalted "design managers" supposed to get their fundamental experience, especially after the current crop of "experts" retires / dies off? Are we supposed to import them back from India?

[valkyrieanne]

But then you go running into the "government" schools and the ability for individual, original thought is pretty much suppressed.

Not so. If you look at schools like MIT, Stanford, Purdue, Washington University in St. Louis, University of Illinois, University of Missouri at Rolla, Georgia Tech - all great engineering schools - you will see that the *vast majority* of their students come from public schools. Obviously the public schools aren't doing that bad a job if their students make up the bulk of engineering graduates.

[ottothedog]

I think that the work is going to follow the skills. I have worked with a lot of Indians, and this is just my observation: The distribution of talent seems to be highly bifurcated. You have a small group at the top who are very knowledgeable/good communication skills, etc. Then the bulk are bordering on useless. Either you can't communicate with them or they don't know what they are doing. With some of this outsourcing, I think the companies may end up finding out that it wasn't a bargain. Again, this is just my observation.

The problem is that high school/college age kids (this is just a generalization) seem only to be interested only in video games/mp3 players when it comes to computers. This may not be fair since back when I had my first computer, most people didn't have them, so if you had one you were definitely a geek.

[ottothedog]

Well that is true, but even before that the person should have a tech degree. I think that as long as we have the people who get the training in school there will be jobs for them here (mostly).

One thing to keep in mind is that we are going to *have* to outsource. Baby boomers are not that far from retiring. My guess is that a lot of them will retire on the early side to pursue other types of careers. We will have to replace these people.

[nightdriver]

"We need your excitement," he said in his pep talk to Harvard students....

Who can get excited about a non-existent job?

Thank you, Bill Gates, now go sit down!

[ottothedog]

The problem that I have with the national defense security argument is that everyone uses it. For instance, the steel people say that if we become dependent on foreign steel....then there is foreign oil...

I agree that it is different for some engineering work, but when I taunt someone in the steel industry for that argument, I don't feel comfortable making that argument for my industry.