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Church divided over lesbian pastor's acquittal(They shouldn't be divided!)
Spokesman Review ^ | 03/22/2004 | Shannon Dininny, AP

Posted on 03/22/2004 9:39:20 PM PST by writer33

ELLENSBURG, Wash. -- The acquittal of a lesbian Methodist pastor charged with violating church doctrine drew praise and scorn Sunday across a denomination that may see its divisions over homosexuality laid bare at a major conference next month.

Saturday's acquittal of the Rev. Karen Dammann was celebrated Sunday at the church where she used to preach in Ellensburg, a small town in central Washington.

"I'm very pleased," said Dodie Haight, a member of the congregation who sat through Dammann's trial about 95 miles away in the Seattle suburb of Bothell. "I don't think the jury had an easy task, but I think they gave it long, thoughtful, prayerful consideration."

A 13-pastor jury acquitted Dammann, 47, of violating a church ban on ordaining "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals." If nine jurors had voted to convict, Dammann could have lost her ministry.

At one point during Sunday's service, during the sharing of joys and concerns, choir member Charlie McKinney s aid Dammann had taught the congregation about the power of truth.

"She did a courageous thing and a difficult thing," McKinney said. "She did this as a way to pull bricks from the age-old wall of prejudice, fear and exclusion."

But there was concern about the fallout for the United Methodist Church, the nation's third-largest denomination with 8.5 million U.S. members. The church, which cannot appeal the verdict, has repeatedly voted against loosening policies on gays and lesbians.

"I'm just stunned at this decision," said James Heidinger, president and publisher of the Methodist publication Good News. He said the jury committed "intellectual dishonesty" when it claimed church standards regarding homosexuality are unclear.

"I believe the vast majority of United Methodists are in grief and shock today. I'm personally heartbroken," said Patricia Miller, executive director of the Confessing Movement, a conservative movement within the church that claims more than 600,000 members.

"I think the issue is, a part of the jurisdiction has broken covenant with the rest of the church and has decided to go the way of the world, as opposed to being faithful to and abiding by church law."

The Methodist church's stance on homosexuality is on the agenda of its next General Conference, which begins April 27 in Pittsburgh. The conference, made up of nearly 1,000 delegates from around the world, is the denomination's top lawmaking body.

Church law prohibits the ordination of open gay and lesbians and the church's Book of Discipline declares being gay "incompatible with Christian teaching." However, the denomination's social principles support gay rights and liberties.

Several Pennsylvania delegates to the conference said they doubt Dammann's case will have much impact on the recurring debate over changing the Book of Discipline.

"I'd be surprised if we overturned that, even though there may be some (regional) annual conferences that want to," said the Rev. Arnold Rhodes, pastor of the Clarion First United Methodist Church about 60 miles northeast of Pittsburgh.

Delegates in the past two General Conferences, which are held every four years, voted by margins of 2-to-1 or more to keep the existing language, said the Rev. Joel Garrett, pastor of Trinity United Methodist Church in McMurray, Penn.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: homosexual; homosexualagenda; methodism; umc
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To: writer33
As a long-time Methodist, I think I have a pretty good grip on the internal workings of the elite, liberal ruling class of the Church. My take: this was a "done deal" from the very beginning. No jurors voted to convict at the trial; if none who called her to trial were calling for her conviction, then why was Dammann called to trial in the first place?

I believe there WAS NO CALL TO CONVICT from the liberal heirachy of the Methodist Church. Rather, Dammann was called to trial for the express purpose of producing an aquittal, and with the knowledge that there would be NO CONVICTION.

I believe this "jury trial" was merely an act to establish precedent, and to pave the way for the bigger agenda at the General Conference.

I am so torn; I spoke specifically to my local Church about the "end run" that would take place regarding this issue, and called for an open but loving debate on this subject. They did not understand, and instead have chosen a full embrace, rather than debate, out of fear they would be branded as "hateful". I have many of my near aquaintances who are homosexual, and I do not "hate" any of them; still, I do not believe Christianity calls for a world built around sexual orientation rather than family.

I have always said that if one didn't agree with the policies of certain establishments, one should change it or leave it - but pick one. I have tried to change the establishment of my Church. Sadly, it may never work; now perhaps it is time to leave it...
21 posted on 03/22/2004 10:05:40 PM PST by dandelion
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To: Libertina
Someone once gave me a link to a religion resource website and now I can't rememnber.... darn
22 posted on 03/22/2004 10:07:04 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.ArmorforCongress.com......................Send a Freeper to Congress!)
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To: writer33
Think of Lutherans as Catholic light. Think of Methodists as Lutheran light. I like to think of Methodists as a cross between Catholicism and Baptists.

I've been called a lot of things but "Catholic light", that's a new one on me!

23 posted on 03/22/2004 10:11:41 PM PST by teletech (Friends don't let friends vote DemocRAT!)
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To: writer33; All
Here's the website for the "Confessing Movement" - the conservative wing of the Church...

http://www.confessingumc.org/

I'm checking it out to see if there is anything we can do from the inside.
24 posted on 03/22/2004 10:12:28 PM PST by dandelion
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To: writer33
There's another hearing that she will have to face after she dies. 'nuff said.
25 posted on 03/22/2004 10:13:09 PM PST by birdsman
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To: writer33
"They split from the Catholic church a long time ago."

Yes they did, but Henry VIII had already split the Church of England off of the Roman church before that.

The Methodists, under John Wesley, found themselves alienated from a very unspiritual Church of England. At the first, Methodists were very solid in the faith.

Ol' John Wesley is probably turning about 500 rpm in his grave over what the Methodists have become.

These poor people have become misled about God and the purpose He has for mankind. They desperately need our prayers.

26 posted on 03/22/2004 10:20:16 PM PST by nightdriver
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To: Arkinsaw
In general, the hierarchy and spokesmen who spend the money are activist liberal and the people who pay the tithes are silent and dumb conservative.

Sounds familiar

27 posted on 03/22/2004 10:20:34 PM PST by Redcoat LI ("help to drive the left one into the insanity.")
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To: GeronL
meta-religion.com

Thats the one.

28 posted on 03/22/2004 10:25:43 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.ArmorforCongress.com......................Send a Freeper to Congress!)
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To: Redcoat LI
Thy this link http://www.unitedmethodist.org/ or this link http://www.umc.org/
29 posted on 03/22/2004 10:27:16 PM PST by RedlegCPT (Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl)
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To: Redcoat LI
Name: The United Methodist Church

Founders: Although the United Methodist Church is actually the current result of several schisms and mergers within and among different churches, the United Methodist Church considers its founder to be John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement. 1

Date of Birth: John Wesley was born in 1703 in England. He died in 1791. 2

Date/Place Founded: Wesley founded The Methodist Church in London in 1739. 3 However, the church that we know today as the United Methodist Church was not founded until April 23, 1968 in Dallas, Texas as a result of the unification of The Methodist Church and The Evangelical United Brethren Church.

30 posted on 03/22/2004 10:29:53 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.ArmorforCongress.com......................Send a Freeper to Congress!)
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To: Redcoat LI
There are apprx. 8.4 million Methodists in the US about a million in other countries. OKay, thats United Methodists.
31 posted on 03/22/2004 10:31:21 PM PST by GeronL (http://www.ArmorforCongress.com......................Send a Freeper to Congress!)
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To: writer33
AH - HERE WE GO -

Petitions before the General Conference:

http://www.umc.org/Calms/Petition.asp?mid=2886

Almost FORTY petitions regarding homosexuality - the vast majority of them calling for acceptance in the Methodist Church. Most notable, this one regarding Scouting:

Submitted Petition Text: Inclusiveness, Scouting, and Other Youth-Serving Groups

WHEREAS, The United Methodist Church affirms that "inclusiveness denies every semblance of discrimination" and holds that "(t)he mark of an inclusive society is one in which all persons are open, welcoming, fully accepting, and supporting of all other persons, enabling them to participate fully in the life of the church, the community and the world" Discipline, 2000, ¶ 138), and

WHEREAS, our denomination "implore(s) families and churches not to reject or condemn their lesbian and gay members and friends," and promises "to be in ministry for and with all persons" (Discipline, 2000, ¶ 161G), and

WHEREAS, the General Conference of 1996 approved a "Call for a Rebirth of Compassion" (Book of Resolutions, 2000, pages 500-01) in which it "call(ed) on our churches to reach out in love and compassion to all persons, regardless of race, economic condition, sexual preference, and religious persuasion, becoming beacons of love in a stormy sea of hatred, discrimination, and violence," and

WHEREAS, the General Conference of 2000 dedicated our church "to a ministry of Christ-like hospitality and compassion to persons of all sexual orientations ..." and recommended "welcoming sexual minorities, their friends, and families into our churches ..." ("Church to Be in Ministry to Persons of All Sexual Orientations," Book of Resolutions, 2000, pages 133, 134), and

WHEREAS, the denomination in 2000 provided that the Scouting Ministries office of United Methodist Men would expand to cover other "civic youth-serving agencies," which include not only Boy Scouts of America but also "Girl Scouts of the USA, Camp Fire Boys and Girls, 4-H, and such appropriate organizations within the General Conferences" Discipline, 2000, ¶ 2302.5), and

WHEREAS, our church now lists "the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Camp Fire Boys and Girls, 4-H, or other appropriate national organizations" as presenting "another setting for ministry to children, youth, their leaders, and their families" at the local church level (Discipline, 2000, ¶ 255.3), and

WHEREAS, the Girl Scouts of the USA, Camp Fire USA, and 4-H do not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation,

Therefore, be it resolved, that:

1)  If local churches or other units within the denomination are considering the sponsorship of youth-serving organizations they should work wherever possible with those groups that are fully inclusive, and

2)  If local churches or other units within the denomination already sponsor Boy Scout activities, they should work to make the Boy Scouts of America fully inclusive.  These efforts should initially include, without being limited to, discussing inclusiveness with parents and local and regional scout leaders and committees, informing appropriate scouting officials that the local scouting group wishes to be fully inclusive, and requesting local and regional scouting officials to work for official Boy Scout membership policy to become fully inclusive.

3)  If, after dialogue with local and regional Boy Scout leaders, local churches or other entities discover that these officials are not willing to support a policy of inclusiveness, then the local church or other sponsoring group should either affiliate with another national organization that is fully inclusive or, if it prefers, challenge the leadership by becoming fully inclusive on its own.

Submitted By Cynthia Williams Oklahoma City OK

32 posted on 03/22/2004 10:37:51 PM PST by dandelion
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To: Paleo Conservative
I thought it was "Brothel" not Bothell.

I suspect it was a typo, and you read it right the first time.

33 posted on 03/22/2004 10:39:47 PM PST by BykrBayb (FReepers make algore regret inventing the Internet)
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To: BykrBayb
I thought it was "Brothel" not Bothell.

I suspect it was a typo, and you read it right the first time.

Maybe you're both wrong, and its' "Bought Hell".

34 posted on 03/22/2004 10:50:27 PM PST by hunter112
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To: dandelion
I am so torn; I spoke specifically to my local Church about the "end run" that would take place regarding this issue, and called for an open but loving debate on this subject. They did not understand, and instead have chosen a full embrace, rather than debate, out of fear they would be branded as "hateful". I have many of my near aquaintances who are homosexual, and I do not "hate" any of them; still, I do not believe Christianity calls for a world built around sexual orientation rather than family.

To my mind, churches need to take a few lessons from the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The father most likely knew that his son was foolish, and told him so, but did not stop the son from going out to discover his foolishness for himself. The father did not support the son in his foolishness, but welcomed his son back when he repented and renounced his wicked ways.

I perceive that some churches are afraid to take strong moral stances for fear of 'scaring off' sinners. IMHO, this is a big mistake; it would be akin to the Prodigal Son's father continuously wiring him money to bail him out of any financial difficulties.

No matter what a church tries to do, some people are going to ignore moral teachings and engage in all sorts of depravity and wickedness. Rather than trying to provide support for people who engage in such wickedness (which would in turn just enable it), a church should instead recognize that the hedonists are going to eventually find that something is missing from their life. It may take years or even decades, but eventually hedonists will realize that the their care-free lifestyle can't supply the spiritual nourishment they desparately need.

Trying to plant God's seeds of wisdom in people will be futile if the people's souls are hard and barren and aren't willing to accept it. But when people soften up after discovering that their lives are really empty, then the seeds of wisdom can germinate and bear fruit.

35 posted on 03/22/2004 10:53:32 PM PST by supercat (Why is it that the more "gun safety" laws are passed, the less safe my guns seem?)
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To: cherry
I did something. 16 months ago, I left the ELCA church I belonged to all my life, and attend a non-denominational Bible teaching church. I now know what it truly means to have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. The direction of so many mainline denominations is a tragedy, IMHO.
36 posted on 03/22/2004 10:57:18 PM PST by luckymom
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To: writer33
ZOT!! is VERY unclear, don't you see?
37 posted on 03/22/2004 10:59:20 PM PST by Waco
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To: cherry
I think in the main Protestant sects...Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal.....if you have conservative beliefs, I don't know how you can either allow this sanctifying of gay clergy to go on, or how you can remain in your churches....

being gay, and being an openly gay minister are two differant things....

You make some good points. My sister is Episcopalian and is seriously considering joining Mel Gibson's branch of Catholicism.

I'm in Seattle and watched all this Methodist stuff in the news. I have gay relatives and friends and generally wish them well. However, does the Bible say what it says or not? Does the Methodist discipline book say what it says or not? I do not understand how an open, practising gay person can be a Methodist minister when their rules say she cannot.

Does the law mean anything?

38 posted on 03/22/2004 11:02:24 PM PST by radiohead (Over toning the opponent since 2003)
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To: writer33
"THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR ON THIS ISSUE! WHY ARE WE DEBATING PREJUDICE?"

This might help to understand the mentality behind such debates if you have plenty of time to follow links and read.

There were two very similar churches in early 1800s America that were mysticist, illuminist, feminist, romanticist and anti-scriptural (although they say that they only believe scripture to be "secondary," and so forth). Those religions exist today and continue their earlier work--to spread illuminism (the god within, "inner light,"...) to Protestantism and Judaism. Their members intentionally become members of more scriptural churches in order to incrementally reverse scriptural beliefs.

When one is in transition toward dismissing scripture, one will argue with it. When one no longer believes in scripture at all (e.g., that our Father of the Old Testament was no more than a negative "Author" of the universe, that the Satan of the Garden of Eden was the hero for humanity, etc.), one does not care what scripture says.

http://familyops.us/anthonyproject/Susan_B_Anthony_Devil.html

It tells some of the story of what happened to Protestantism.
39 posted on 03/22/2004 11:19:38 PM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: writer33
This was one unbelievable case, without any regard for the law of the church.

From what I understand, the church law prohibits the ordination of practicing, self avowed homosexuals. This whole thing started when this "minister" and her partner went to get married, I think in Portland.

So I don't understand how she could be acquitted. I mean, don't two lesbians getting married and reciting "vows" make you a professing homosexual? Give me a break.

I guess it's one of those liberal things, you don't have to follow the law if you don't approve of it.

It makes one want to pull one's hair out. If they don't like the law, change it or change their denomination. But stop lying to themselves and everyone else. It's so Clintonesque - I guess it is based on what your definition of IS is.
40 posted on 03/22/2004 11:20:26 PM PST by I still care (The appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last - Churchill)
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