Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[presidio9]

THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

He further claims that Mel Gibson "belongs to an ultra-conservative Catholic group which does not recognise the reforms of Vatican II, and celebrates Mass in Latin".

Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it.

Sadly, however, it will be welcomed and praised by many who ought to know better."

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."

[ought-six]

"Whenever I have a religious discussion with my hard core Protestant friends, they always seem fixated on:
1. Purgatory
2. The legitimacy of the Pope
3. Veneration of Mary (and saints)."

I'm a Catholic, and my response to the "concerns" identified is thus: (1). Purgatory is allegorical; it doe snot exist; (2). The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, just as the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the Anglican Church, etc.; Catholics no longer see the Pope as being infallible, as perhaps some of them at one time they did; (3) Mary is the Mother of Jesus; she is not God, she is not of the Trinity; she is revered as being the Mother of Jesus. As for the Saints, they are viewed primarily as martyrs for their faith; they are not God, and they are not of the Trinity. They are popular because of specific associations: St. Joseph was a carpenter, so he is popular with carpenters; St. Francis (of Assisi) was what today would be called an animal rights activist, so he is popular with veterinarians, animal lovers, etc.

[ought-six]

"Do you pray for the dead? Why?"

I pary to God to welcome them into His loving arms.

[Preachin']

The movie wasn't Catholic, at all.

It dealt with Jesus as a man, and as deity.

The man side must include His mother. Having her in the film did a lot to show the "humanness" of Christ.

It heps us to understand the passages where we find out that He is familiar with our infirmities, or our problems.

Christ is touchable, and the film does an excellent job making this point.

On top of this, what mother would not be torn apart, or be at the center of the murder of her son?

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

Whatever else you want to say you cannot escape the fact that you have added changed and distorted the word that was delivered.

Let's specifically address "distorting the word".

Indeed. For your reference, please consider what Havoc stated on two different occasions on what it takes in becoming a Christian.

Statement #1

"The first step in becoming Christian is to Repent - or admit to the sin in your life and vow to turn from it. The second step is to confess Christ as savior, and that is followed by learning Scripture and Following Christ."

see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1023239/posts?page=111#111

so the above is:

1) Repent
2) Confess
3) Learning Scripture and following Christ

Statement #2:

"That's two shot down specifically. The sacraments generally pervert scripture as much in what they cause as in what they get wrong. There is no ritual that I'm aware of mentioned in the entire New testament that is required to be a Christian. There are actions that are required. They are three - You must 1) believe with your heart and confess with your mouth to be born again (Paul specifically states this). 2) Per Jesus in Mark 16:15-18 you must be born again (saved - as paul said) and baptized in the Holy spirit. 3) John 10 and Romans 8 you must follow Christ in the Holy Spirit."

see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/992292/posts?page=253#253

So, in this message we have:

1) Believe, Confess
2) Born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit
3) Follow Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Given that one has the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit so that one can understand Scripture, and given that Christ and the Holy Spirit cannot err, makes 'ya wonder why the statements do not mesh - they don't agree. They do not have to be worded exactly the same to mean the same things. The above don't even mean the same things.

The requirements for becoming a Christian are clear - but not from the messages above.

[ought-six]

"No, the dead's fate is sealed. Either they believed and accepted the truth or they rejected it and no amount of praying that I do can change that."

I disagree. There is no sin vile enough or big enough that God cannot forgive it.

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

I've researched the matter - female pope and all.

But there rarely seems to be documentation and citations to back up what Havoc claims. Even look at the comments attributed to the Pope on Mary and salvation. The best we get is something along the lines of "I heard it on a tape". Pretty convincing...

[Fury]

Let's just take one small snippet of what Havoc writes:

...nor did it exist at the time of Constantine or Theodosius

Theodosius? Which one? Theodosius I (reined 379 - 395) or Theodosius II (reined in the Eastern empire 402-450)?

It would be interesting to have a discussion on the issues, but when our friend can't get the base facts of the period correct, it makes it more of a challenge.

[presidio9]

No they didn't. I told you myself that it matters not one bit what is in that prayer beyond the active passage. One sentence took it into Blasphemy. You could put the entire Bible from front to back in that prayer and that one line would still be blasphemy. You have to play damage control here or accept the truth and you have chosen damage control.

If this is true, why did your advocate feel compelled to lie?

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

Did I ever study logic, yes. Irving L. Copi. Still on my shelf

At http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1037248/posts?page=63#63 , our friend claimed:

"a theory is an opinion".

And as was pointed out at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1037248/posts?page=70#70 , that is not correct:

"Incorrect. A theory is "An entire body of knowledge associated with a particular area of study, including the basic postulates, predictions based on these postulates, observations and experimental data, and their interpretation. [Cal Poly Physics Colloquium, 9/23/99]
Theories are well described, repeatedly observed, and verified statements. When they have repeatedly confirmed over a long period of time, the theory for all practical purposes is used as true or fact, (sometime referred to as superb theory such as quantum mechanics)."

[presidio9]

One of the haters protested that the film was dominated by Mary (insert ominous monster-movie music here), "who hardly appears in the bible!". It was funy then when another person posted a long, long list of references to His blessed mother, the queen of angels.

If you can find a link to that post, I'd really appreciate it.

[presidio9]

Anti-Catholicism is a garbage buzzword you guys throw around whenever anyone points out the errors and false nature of your claims.

Please direct me to the thread where Catholics are hard at work attacking the traditions of other orders.

You have no counterpart among Catholics. What does that tell you?

[presidio9]

I say let's let this Wallace Thompson direct a remake of "Passion."

This is exactly what the Protestant faiths have been doing for centuries.

[kid_in_kc]

Wouldn't any mother suffer when she saw the agony inflicted on her only son?

um....just for clarification...Jesus wasn't mary's only son.

[presidio9]

I'm willing to bet that if you did a study, the majority of folks who have seen the film in the USA ARE Evangelical Protestants.

Have you seen it yet bro?

[presidio9]

The "Catholic" flag on your picture is that of the Franciscan order. The true flag of the Catholic Church is that of the Holy See:

[BaBaStooey]

"Paging Jack T. Chick, Jack T. Chick to the "Catholicism Conspiracy Room...."

[Cronos]

um....just for clarification...Jesus wasn't mary's only son.

umm. and were you the handmaiden? Please don't quote that "His brother John, or something else" as in the Middle East and Asia it's pretty common to call a cousin a 'brother' or to be more exact a 'cousin brother'

[presidio9]

As far being "too Catholic" goes I do not believe it is Catholic doctrine that Mary Magdalena was the prostitute that Jesus saved from being stoned.

When Gibson cast Mary who is called Magdalene as the adutress she was an obvious metaphor for all women.

[presidio9]

I pary to God to welcome them into His loving arms.

For what purpose? If there is no Purgatory, either this has already taken place or it won't.

[kid_in_kc]

Who else on earth was EVER hailed as a queen by an angel?

this morning, i searched the gospels for this because of your post. the conception and birth of jesus is relayed in two of the four gospels--matthew and luke. Matthew only gives a slight nod..

" This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

so, i assume you are talking about the visitation to mary by the angel Gabriel as recorded in Luke chapter 1. I have checked several bible translations...here's what i find: she is called "favored one", "highly favored", "full of grace"...never do i see her addressed as queen.

Luke 1:28:

The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." --New International Version

And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." --New American Standard Bible

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.--King James Version

Gabriel appeared to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"--New Living Translation

Upon entering, Gabriel greeted her:Good morning! You're beautiful with God's beauty, Beautiful inside and out! God be with you.--The Message

And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;'--Young's Literal Translation

I could continue, but i think you must get the point i'm making here...