KERRY RETREATS FROM HIS DENIAL ON VIETNAM MEET - Evidence Puts Him At Kansas Parley

New York Sun ^ | Mar 19, 2004 | JOSH GERSTEIN

[kennedy]

MILL VALLEY, Calif. — Senator Kerry of Massachusetts yesterday retreated from his earlier steadfast denials that he attended a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which a plan to assassinate U.S. Senators was debated.

The reversal came as new evidence, including reports from FBI informants, emerged that contradicted Mr. Kerry’s previous statements about the gathering, which was held in Kansas City, Mo. in November 1971.

“John Kerry had no personal recollection of this meeting 33 years ago,” a Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, said in a statement e-mailed last night from Idaho, where Mr. Kerry is on vacation.

Mr. Wade said Mr. Kerry does remember “disagreements with elements of VVAW leadership” that led to his resignation, but the statement did not specify what the disagreements were.

“If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war,” the statement said.

It did not address the murder plot, though as recently as Wednesday a top aide to Mr. Kerry said that the Massachusetts senator and presumptive Democratic presidential nominee was “absolutely certain” he was not present when the assassination plan, known as the “Phoenix Project,” was discussed.

The New York Sun first reported last week that other anti-war activists placed Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting. A total of six people have now said publicly that they remember seeing Mr. Kerry there. Participants say the plot was voted down, and several say they remember Mr. Kerry speaking and voting against it.

A historian and expert on activism against the Vietnam War, Gerald Nicosia, provided the Sun yesterday with minutes of the meeting.

Mr. Nicosia also read quotes from FBI surveillance documents he obtained under the Freedom of Information Act as he was preparing his 2001 book, “Home to War.”

“My evidence is incontrovertible.He was there,” Mr. Nicosia said in an interview yesterday. “There’s no way that five or six agents saw his ghost there,” said the historian, who lives in Marin County, north of San Francisco.

Mr. Nicosia said that the records show Mr. Kerry resigned from the group on the third day of the meeting, following discussion of the assassination plan and an argument between Mr. Kerry and another VVAW national coordinator, Al Hubbard.

Reading from an FBI informant report, Mr. Nicosia said, “John Kerry at a national Vietnam Veterans Against the War meeting appeared and announced to those present that he resigned for personal reasons but said he would be able to speak for VVAW” at future events.Another document “describes a conversation actually a confrontation between John Kerry and Hubbard that was taking place on one of the days of that meeting,” Mr. Nicosia added.

Mr. Nicosia said it is clear that Mr. Kerry and the others resigned because of the extreme actions the group was considering.

“It’s kind of unmistakable to see a pattern. All four of them were out the door, bingo, the morning after” the socalled Phoenix plot was discussed, the author said.

Mr. Nicosia generally declined to speculate on why Mr. Kerry had denied being present. However, the author did observe, “Especially if you’re running for president, you don’t want to be associated with a plot for assassinating people.”

Mr. Nicosia repeatedly stressed that he was not calling Mr. Kerry a liar and said he has no animus towards the senator. The historian said he sent copies of some of the documents to the Kerry campaign yesterday morning on his own initiative. “I think Senator Kerry better get his story straight on this,”Mr. Nicosia said.

“I’m a Kerry supporter. I honor the guy,”Mr.Nicosia said.He noted that Mr. Kerry threw a book party for “Home at War” at the Hart Senate Office Building. The senator also wrote a positive blurb for the book’s dust jacket.

The book does not mention Mr. Kerry’s presence at the Kansas City meeting. Mr. Nicosia said he did not have the FBI files as he was writing the manuscript. Other accounts led him to think that Mr. Kerry had quit the group at a July meeting in St. Louis.

Mr. Nicosia also provided the Sun with minutes of the meeting that he obtained from the Wisconsin state archives, which hold most of VVAW’s papers.

The minutes, prepared at the group’s national office in New York, recount the actions taken by VVAW’s “emergency steering committee” during the four-day meeting, which ran from November 12 to 15, 1971. The minutes indicate that at the end of the day on Saturday, November 13, discussion turned to “national actions and other things.” The meeting is reported to have adjourned at 10 p.m. and resumed at 11 a.m. Sunday. The document goes on to say that the group passed a motion to hold a “national action… in 3 to 5 different sites.”The next entry in the minutes is, “John Kerry, Scott Moore, Mike Oliver and Skip Roberts resigned as national coordinators.” A later entry indicates that it was decided that the resignations and the decision on the “national action” should be reflected in all the group’s papers.

According to Mr. Nicosia, the FBI documents and other records do not include any direct reference to the assassination plot. However, Mr. Nicosia said some informants who attended the Kansas City meeting warned the FBI of a “drastic move toward more violent actions.”

A VVAW chapter newsletter obtained by the Sun reports that after “much argument” the Kansas City meeting went into closed session “for various opaque reasons of security and expediency in order to discuss the national Christmas action.” The newsletter also notes the resignation of Mr. Kerry and the other three leaders. It cites “personality conflicts and differences in political philosophies” as the main reasons for the resignations.

A group of VVAW members seized the Statue of Liberty on behalf of the group on December 27, 1971. It’s unclear whether that action was approved at the Kansas City meeting in November.

The three other men who appear to have resigned along with Mr. Kerry did not respond to requests for comment for this story.

Mr. Moore did not reply to an e-mail and messages left at his home. Mr. Roberts is now the legislative director for the Service Employees International Union, which is supporting Mr. Kerry’s presidential bid. Reached at his union office Wednesday, Mr. Roberts said he would call back but did not. Efforts to locate Mr. Oliver were unsuccessful.

Earlier in the week,some aides to Mr. Kerry suggested that because he appeared on a PBS “Firing Line” broadcast with William F. Buckley on November 14, 1971, Mr. Kerry could not have attended the Kansas City gathering. But that contention also disintegrated yesterday on closer examination.

Tapes of the “Firing Line” television program are housed at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. An archivist there, Carol Leadenham, told the Sun that Mr. Kerry and Mr. Buckley taped a program on November 2, 1971. No air date was noted, but Ms. Leadenham said it is likely that it aired about two weeks later.

“That’s about the usual time between the taping and the air date,” she said.

Some discrepancies in Mr. Kerry’s earlier statements about VVAW remain unaddressed by the campaign. Last week, Mr. Kerry said he last saw Mr. Hubbard in April 1971, shortly before a National Review article exposed Mr. Hubbard for exaggerating his rank and his service record in Vietnam. However, a New York Times report put Mr. Kerry at a fund-raiser with Mr. Hubbard on Long Island on August 29, 1971. Now, Mr. Nicosia’s documents indicate that Mr. Kerry had a verbal altercation with Mr. Hubbard in November of that year.

[Howlin]

Well, I am hacked about this letter to the editor in my local paper, The Edwards Observer, if you get my drift.

The records of Lt. Bush's military service





Regarding Scott C. Pierce's March 8 Point of View article "The facts back Lt. Bush," which concerned George W. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard:
The Web site users.cis.net/cold feet/ contains 22 documents from Bush's military records that were released by the Air Reserve Personnel Center (ARPC) under a Freedom of Information Act request in 2000.

The information there shows that Bush served on active duty for basic training and pilot training from May 1968 to May 1970. He continued in the Ready Air Reserve as part of the Texas Air National Guard, for which he was obligated to serve at least four satisfactory years. A satisfactory year required a minimum of 50 retirement points, with one point credited for each day of duty and 15 gratuity points credited for membership in the Ready Reserve.

The records show that Bush earned 61 points for 1970-71, 37 points for 1971-72, 15 (gratuity only) points for 1972-73, and 50 points for May 1973 to May 1974. Bush was grounded on Aug. 1, 1972, for failure to take a flight physical. He requested and was granted early discharge from the Texas Air National Guard on Oct. 2, 1973. He was then placed in a non-pay status and his records were transferred to the ARPC. In this category, he was subject to recall to active duty for a period up to 24 months, and he could have gone to Vietnam. Finally, there is a letter stating that Bush was discharged from the Air Force Reserve on Nov. 21, 1974, six months beyond his obligated service date on or about May 21, 1974.

As far as I know, no one has challenged the accuracy of these documents. As a former commanding officer of Ready Naval Reserve units during the Vietnam War, and noting that all of Bush's Air Force Reserve records have not been released, I am certain that if there are records that show that he attended drills during 1972-73 when he was in Alabama, he would have released them by now to clear up this issue. One does not need to rely on eyewitness accounts to determine his National Guard service.

Thomas Henkel

Cmdr., USNR (Ret)

Chapel Hill


Now, I thought we had put that issue to rest; but, leaving that aside, it's puzzling to me why everybody is so damn worried about that, but it doesn't bother anybody that John F. Kerry, who may have still be in the Naval Reserves, sat at a meeting where there was discussion of murdering United States Congress members -- and did NOTHING to report it.

I'm trying to formulate a response....one that could actually get printed, if you know what I mean.....LOL.

[BlessedByLiberty]

Brilliant question. Just how much of his anti-war activities were conducted while he served or was a reservist?

How does a reservist or active military man not turn this information to superiors or the FBI?

How does the participation in such events or meetings square up with the profile of a hero? Just wondering how this information will effect the 'veteran' support that Kerry brags about having.

To date the words despicable, devious and disastrous crossed my mind everytime I saw Kerry - should I perhaps add deadly?

[Hon]

"Let me ask you this........this meeting that Kerry can't remember attending, would this have been AFTER he left the Navy -- but while he was still in the reserves?"

Somebody (and I'm not volunteering) ought to put up a Frequently Asked Questions thread that is readily available for questions like this. I've answered it a dozen times I believe. Kerry left the Navy in January 1970. He returned to the Naval Reserves in 1972. How he managed to drop out--given what should have been his Navy committment as an officer is beyond me. But that is what his bios claim.

Here is the Boston Globe's timeline, which covers some of this:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/timeline.htm

[EllaMinnow]

I am coming late to this story, so forgive me if I'm duplicating earlier research. I googled Mr. Camil, and I am utterly horrified.

http://innerspace-unltd.net/writing/camil.html

"...of the shocking nature of Camil’s often graphic testimony. This skill is epitomized by his reaction to Camil’s explanation of an alternative to symbolically throwing away medals during a march on Washington. Camil prefaces the plan by saying that it is something he has never told anyone before, and “I did not think it was terrible at the time. My plan was that, on the last day…we would go into the [congressional] offices…we would schedule the most hard-core hawks for last-and we would shoot them all.” L: “Were you serious about this?” C: “I was serious. I felt that I spent two years killing women and children in their own f**king homes. These are the guys that f**king made the policy, and these were the guys that were responsible for it, and these were the guys that were voting to continue the f**king war when the public was against it. I felt that if we really believed in what we were doing, and if we were willing to put our lives on the line for the country over there, we should be willing to put our lives on the line for the country over here."” Had Landers vehemently objected to the feasibility, logic, legality, or appropriateness of this alternative plan, he would have alienated Camil, thereby destroying the rapport which enabled him to obtain information throughout the interview, which would have sacrificed the honesty of his description of the plan and his justification of such extreme measures, as well as his willingness to speak honestly throughout the remainder of the interview.

[Hon]

"Brilliant question. Just how much of his anti-war activities were conducted while he served or was a reservist?"

Kerry was piloting Adam Walinsky around while he was still on active duty with the Navy. He also attended the "Moratorium" rally in DC while still on active duty:

John Kerry's First Big Protest [While On Active Duty In The Navy]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1092308/posts

[Howlin]

Well, not to be a pest, but isn't it a fact that back then when you did get out of the Navy, you were still in the reserves for several years?

[PhiKapMom]

Can you believe their statements? They must think we are all dumb with comments that defy imagination. Noticed how they put FBI surveillance tape as questionable. Surveillance tape doesn't lie. Do you think Kerry is dumb enough to think that all these demonstrations and meetings were not on surveillance tape?

[js1138]

...and did NOTHING to report it.

We don't know for a fact that he wasn't one of the FBI finks. That would be cool.

[Carolinamom]

He resigned, BUT he offered to speak for them? Nuance?

[BlessedByLiberty]

Thanks for the memory jog.

I think we need a brilliant Freeper poster to come up with the (non-copyright) antiwar pics of Kerry and caption them with his comments about troops; overlay the whole thing with "...and JF*ing Kerry wants to be CIC"

[js1138]

The non-denial denial in #197 is a hoot. You don't come up with stuff like that on the spur of the moment. Kerry has been planning this for years. But he is not as clever as charming Billy, and he doesn't have SHE-RA covering his tailgate.

[Hon]

"Well, not to be a pest"

I didn't mean to suggest in my earlier post that you were being a pest by asking your question. I just meant it shows that there are a number of questions that occur to people regularly and which should be readily addressed somewhere.

"but isn't it a fact that back then when you did get out of the Navy, you were still in the reserves for several years?"

I don't know. I've seen some posts from people who seem to know what they were talking about that suggest that this is the normal case. You'd think it would be easy enough to nail down.

The few people I've mentioned it to in real life who were in the military thought it was odd. They thought that the obligation was supposed to be continuous. But I haven't seen anything definitive. Given the bogus Bush AWOL charge, it would be a major embarrassment if Kerry turned out to have shaved the rules on this.

[MeekOneGOP]

He accuses the GOP/Bush of being 'Liars and Crooks' and then this comes up. He's the liar.

Then he talks to his base about the GOP 'Attack Machine' smearing him.

He's doing a pretty good job of smearing himself with his transparent BS, imho !!

To all you lurkers out there: Vote Bush-Cheney !!

________________________________________________________

We don't need somebody that is WEAK on DEFENSE !! ...

[cyncooper]

Remember all the whining the media has done about FBI surveillance of the anti-war movement? This one story proves the surveillance was entirely appropriate.

I've been thinking that God works in mysterious ways and that this Kerry business might bring about the debunking of a lot of the "conventional wisdom".

We'll see. I know my eyes are being opened and I'm reconsidering what I thought I knew.

[MeekOneGOP]

Incredible memory lapse.

Yeah, NOBODY in their right mind 'forgets' about a discussion involving assassinations of U.S. Senators.

Incredible is right !!

[MeekOneGOP]

Just wait 2 days..he will deny it all over again:)

Hey, that is not so far-fetched with this creep ! I was thinking the same thing.
Seriously, I wouldn't put it past him at all ...

Earlier, Connelly wrote, when Yarrow sang “Puff the Magic Dragon”
at an event in a private home in Ames, Iowa, “Kerry lifted his
fingers to his mouth for a quick toke on an imaginary joint.
You can almost see his thick mane of silver hair returning to the
shaggy brown do of those days.”

John Kerry: Stuck in a Vietnam-era time warp
(Click here or on the pic to read the entire article)

[BlessedByLiberty]

...Given the bogus Bush AWOL charge, it would be a major embarrassment if Kerry turned out to have shaved the rules on this...

We now know what's behind the bogus Bush charge! When it's brought up about Kerry, the answer is, well Bush did it too!

BTW, the idea about a Kerry FAQ's is a very good one. Might I also humbly suggest a time line? We have his supposed resignation letter from this group, I believe they said it was archived in Kansas, that no one can find, the assorted resignation dates and then the photo in the Boston Globe where he is identified and associated with the VietVetsAgainsttheWar.

[cyncooper]

As I pointed out yesterday, and as it plainly states in the article, the author of the book submitted a normal Freedom of Information request and got the files.

It's not HRC.

Hence the redacted files.

[breakem]

I was waiting for the part about reporting the conspirators to the FBI or at least the local police.

[Hon]

BTW, here is a FR thread on the subject of Kerry's military obligation:

Kerry's Reserve Service Obligation
Vanity
Posted on 03/14/2004 8:24:08 PM PST by pfflier

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1097774/posts