#590 Faith is believing without evidence, and regardless of comments to the contrary, the standard interpretation of "Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test," is that you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, and it is sinful to try.
#599 If you look at the original incident that led to this prohibition you will see that there was a scientific experiment performed to test for the presence of God. It worked, too. This incident must have caused a bit of trouble for later leaders, because later scripture specifically prohibits trying to repeat this experiment.
Let's START with what Jesus said to Satan:
Matthew 4
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
Jesus said, "It is written..." so let's just see WHERE 'it is written'.
The footnote at the bottom of my Bible refers to Deut 6:16..... Let's see what IT says......
Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah.
HMmm.. not too much here; what is this MASSAH thing??
Doing a search I find:
Exodus 17
1. The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink.
2. So they quarreled with Moses and said, "Give us water to drink." Moses replied, "Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the LORD to the test?"
3. But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, "Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?"
4. Then Moses cried out to the LORD, "What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me."
5. The LORD answered Moses, "Walk on ahead of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go.
6. I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.
7. And he called the place Massah and Meribah because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"
Deuteronomy 9:20-24
20. And the LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too.
21. Also I took that sinful thing of yours, the calf you had made, and burned it in the fire. Then I crushed it and ground it to powder as fine as dust and threw the dust into a stream that flowed down the mountain.
22. You also made the LORD angry at Taberah, at Massah and at Kibroth Hattaavah.
23. And when the LORD sent you out from Kadesh Barnea, he said, "Go up and take possession of the land I have given you." But you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God. You did not trust him or obey him.
24. You have been rebellious against the LORD ever since I have known you.
Deuteronomy 33:8-9
8. About Levi he said: "Your Thummim and Urim belong to the man you favored. You tested him at Massah; you contended with him at the waters of Meribah.
9. He said of his father and mother, `I have no regard for them.' He did not recognize his brothers or acknowledge his own children, but he watched over your word and guarded your covenant.
Psalms 95:6-11
6. Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker;
7. for he is our God and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care. Today, if you hear his voice,
8. do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the desert,
9. where your fathers tested and tried me, though they had seen what I did.
10. For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways."
11. So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."
Different translations use 'tempt' instead of 'test'
KJV Psalms 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
ASV Psalms 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, Proved me, and saw my work.
ASV Exodus 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the striving of the children of Israel, and because they tempted Jehovah, saying, Is Jehovah among us, or not?
KJV Exodus 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the Lord, saying, Is the Lord among us, or not?
KJV Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
ASV Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt Jehovah your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
|
In their 'testing', the root of it all was an unbelief of God's promise and presense:
Deuteronomy 9:23b ...... But you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God. You did not trust him or obey him. 24 You have been rebellious against the LORD ever since I have known you.
Psalms 95:9 ..... where your fathers tested and tried me, though they had seen what I did.
Exodus 17:7 .... because they tested the LORD saying, "Is the LORD among us or not?"
Here is another 'test' of GOD....
Judges 6
1. Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and for seven years he gave them into the hands of the Midianites.
2. Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves and strongholds.
3. Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country.
4. They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys.
5. They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts. It was impossible to count the men and their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it.
6. Midian so impoverished the Israelites that they cried out to the LORD for help.
7. When the Israelites cried to the LORD because of Midian,
8. he sent them a prophet, who said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I brought you up out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
9. I snatched you from the power of Egypt and from the hand of all your oppressors. I drove them from before you and gave you their land.
10. I said to you, `I am the LORD your God; do not worship the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you live.' But you have not listened to me."
11. The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites.
12. When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, "The LORD is with you, mighty warrior."
13. "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, `Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14. The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15. "But Lord, " Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16. The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17. Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me.
18. Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you." And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return."
19. Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20. The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so.
21. With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared.
22. When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"
23. But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24. So Gideon built an altar to the LORD there and called it The LORD is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25. That same night the LORD said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old. Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it.
26. Then build a proper kind of altar to the LORD your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27. So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the LORD told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28. In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
29. They asked each other, "Who did this?" When they carefully investigated, they were told, "Gideon son of Joash did it."
30. The men of the town demanded of Joash, "Bring out your son. He must die, because he has broken down Baal's altar and cut down the Asherah pole beside it."
31. But Joash replied to the hostile crowd around him, "Are you going to plead Baal's cause? Are you trying to save him? Whoever fights for him shall be put to death by morning! If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar."
32. So that day they called Gideon "Jerub-Baal, " saying, "Let Baal contend with him," because he broke down Baal's altar.
33. Now all the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples joined forces and crossed over the Jordan and camped in the Valley of Jezreel.
34. Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.
35. He sent messengers throughout Manasseh, calling them to arms, and also into Asher, Zebulun and Naphtali, so that they too went up to meet them.
36. Gideon said to God, "If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised--
37. look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said."
38. And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew--a bowlful of water.
39. Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew."
40. That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew.
Gideon's question was very similar to the Children of Israel's, but HIS request was just to learn WHY these 'things' were happening: he did NOT question GOD's very presense with them.
Gideon 'tested' God; not once but THREE times. God was NOT angry, provoked or incensed at the request(s).
In the New Testement, Thomas (you remember, the DOUBTING one?) 'tested' GOD:
John 20:24-29
24. Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
25. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26. A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27. Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28. Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29. Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas was not rebuked or scolded.
In 1 John chapter four, we find ....
1. Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
Thoughout the NT we (believers) are ENCOURAGED to trust in GOD; to be CONFIDENT in HIS Presense, to come BOLDLY before HIM.
Matthew 7
7. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Hebrews 3:14-15
14. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15. As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Hebrews 10:19-22
19. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,
20. by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,
21. and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22. let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 10:35
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
Hebrews 13:6
So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
1 John 2:28
And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
1 John 3:21-23
21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God
22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1 John 4:17-19
17. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.
18. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19. We love because he first loved us.
1 John 5:14-15
14. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15. And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.
No one HAS to tempt or test God, that is a choice, but do NOT be afraid to do so:
Judges 6: 23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
You are marvelously prolix, but completely unconvincing. If you had a case, you would at least be able to find Christian writers who agree with you.
But dealing with your argument as it stands, without appealing to authority, you are saying that because Thomas, who knew Jesus personally, was allowed to test God, we all are. Nice thought, but anyone in the religion biz knows this is fatal to belief.
You can argue until your text turns blue, but the fact remains that you cannot deny God as the result of an experiment, and you cannot perform an experiment that proves God. You cannot bring the existence of God into the science classroom.
Thye're not seeking principles of order. They may be using principles of order, but on the other hand physial chemists like myself tend to joke about organic chemists' 'rules'. For example, Woodward and Hoffman came up with some useful quantum mechanical rules that govern how certain reactions go. So, reactions which follow these rules are called "Woodward-Hoffmann' Triuble is, there are some reactions that don't follow the rules, and they're called anti-Woodward-Hoffmnn. One thing is sure, though; all reactions in this class are one or the other.
( P ) Pronunciation Key (f
th)
.jpg)