JOHN KERRY VOTED FOR KENNEDY's ban on ALL CENTERFIRE AMMO (63-34 defeated) - Yeas and nays

Thomas ^ | 3-2-03 | Ted Kennedy

[Dan from Michigan]

TEXT OF AMMO BILL

YEAs ---34
Akaka (D-HI) Bayh (D-IN) Biden (D-DE)
Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE) Chafee (R-RI) Clinton (D-NY)
Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Feinstein (D-CA)
Graham (D-FL) Harkin (D-IA) Hollings (D-SC)
Inouye (D-HI) Kennedy (D-MA) Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI) Lautenberg (D-NJ) Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Nelson (D-FL)
Reed (D-RI) Rockefeller (D-WV) Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY) Stabenow (D-MI) Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs ---63
Alexander (R-TN) Allard (R-CO) Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT) Bennett (R-UT) Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO) Breaux (D-LA) Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY) Burns (R-MT) Campbell (R-CO)
Chambliss (R-GA) Cochran (R-MS) Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME) Conrad (D-ND) Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) Daschle (D-SD)
DeWine (R-OH) Dole (R-NC) Dorgan (D-ND)
Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Fitzgerald (R-IL)
Frist (R-TN) Graham (R-SC) Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Jeffords (I-VT)
Kyl (R-AZ) Landrieu (D-LA) Leahy (D-VT)
Lincoln (D-AR) Lott (R-MS) Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY) Miller (D-GA)
Murkowski (R-AK) Nelson (D-NE) Nickles (R-OK)
Pryor (D-AR) Reid (D-NV) Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK) Sununu (R-NH) Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA)

Not Voting - 3
Domenici (R-NM) Edwards (D-NC) Johnson (D-SD)

[Myrddin]

And the ubiquitous 7.62x51mm NATO caliber is essentially indentical and fully interchangeable with the the classic .308 Winchester civilian cartridge.

No it isn't. A chamber designed for 7.62X51 will handle a .308 fine. The converse is not true. My .308 bolt guns require real .308 made by Federal or Winchester. A 7.62X51 will not settle into the chamber. You haved lived (or nearly died) until you have a 7.62X51 NATO do a slam fire as you push the bolt forward.

[TigersEye]

.17HMR is pretty "modern" ammo. It is rimfire.

Yeah, and I bet it will go through the best body-armor like crap through a goose. None of that "cop-killer" stuff for you! ;^)

[Dan from Michigan]

They are 'cop killer bullets' than can penetrate vests......

[plain talk]

Thanks. The left may be wrong but they are smart and savvy. I can see it now, Kennedy standing in front of a bunch of liberal Boston policeman saying we need to ban this cop killer ammo when in fact it applies to almost all ammo. Incredible. Our only defense against the left's emotional ploys is education of the sheeple about these issues AND the psychology ploys the left is using. Not sure how to cut through when many of these folks in the middle have been sufficiently brainwashed by the media and our wonderful public education systems. Folks we're screwed.

[archy]

BTW - Let me clarify. ALL CENTERFIRE AMMO the AG says can penetrate body armor.

Maybe .22's would still be allowed under this........

.22 rimfire magnum has been among the cartridges banned by various *armor-piercing ammo* laws, as has, amazingly enough, the .22 short. Traveling at a very low velocity with a narrow frontal profile, rather than expending energy across the weave of ballistic-resistant fabrics, it tends to slip between the weave. Similarly, most vests are easily penetrated by an icepick or sharpened screwdriver, the reason prison responders' vests are constructed of very different materials and with diffewrent techniques.

-archy-/-

[TigersEye]

Not sure how to cut through ...

Well try this on for size with your average joe sixpack deer hunter:

John Fonda Kerry voted for the Kennedy .30-30 Win. ban.
But he says he's not after your hunting guns. ???

[plain talk]

Well try this on for size with your average joe sixpack deer hunter:

LOL! I loved your ad. But I'm not worried about deer hunters. Every stinkin one of them should be in Bush country - if not - they're friggin nuts. It's the mushy wimpy folks in the middle I'm worried about. Ohio is a good state for the Bush camp to focus on and try to figure out how to reach THOSE blue collar folks who claim to be independents. Need some Willy Horten type ads I suppose.

[philetus]

Of course Kerry voted for Kennedys bill.
If he became Pres. he would do Kennedys bidding.

[Redbob]

But, but... Jeffords voted with US?
Olympia Snowe voted with US?
Arlen Specter, Mary Landrieu, & Whosit Voinovich of Ohio voted with the good guys!

Is the world coming to an end, is the apocalypse here?
/sarcasm

[TeleStraightShooter]

From the failed amendment:(iv) a projectile for a centerfire rifle, designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability, that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be more likely to penetrate body armor than standard ammunition of the same caliber.

Afew observations:
projectile: Ammo or bullets for reloading

designed or marketed: How does marketing make a bullet more likely to penetrate body armor?

more likely: what is standard? softpoint? if so, then any ball ammo {full metal jacket} would certainly be "more likely"

Virtually all Mosant Nagant 7.62x54 ammo could be outlawed since it is the "same caliber" as a 7.62x51 {.308} but 3mm more powder, not to mention those russian bullets are more than just lead under that FMJ.

[Dan from Michigan]

I ain't giving Jeffords, Snowe, or Voinovich a break since they backed the AWB

But Specter and Landrieu voted against the AWB actually. And Liddy Dole was actually perfect.

[Myrddin]

Yeah, and I bet it will go through the best body-armor like crap through a goose.

Absolutely. A smaller caliber, spitzer bullet and 2500 fps. A local varminter shot a magpie with the .17HMR from a Ruger 77/17. The exploding bone fragments killed the magpie sitting next to the intended target. The round is a .22 magnum rimfire case that is necked down to .17. Ruger will be making .17LR barrels for the MkII .22LR pistols in a few months. The .17LR will feed just fine from the standard MkII magazine. My wife really wants one of these new barrels to put on one of her many MkII pistols. I've seen .17LR ammo (sampled from the SHOT show). It appears to be .22LR necked down to .17...similar to the .17HMR, but less powder. Very nice.

One small hitch. You need a smaller cleaning rod, brush and patches. The standard rod is too big. Ditto for patches.

[TigersEye]

The .17LR sounds very interesting. I wonder if prices will compare with .22LR? I have mused about pistols chambered in .17HMR since that round was developed. If there aren't any yet it should just be a matter of time. It would be a nice round for a Contender I would think.

[Travis McGee]

The way they'd slip it by is to stop the manufacture of new ammo. That way it wouldn't be an outright confiscation, and people would think "Oh well, I have quite a bit of ammo in supply." A false sense of security. Then, it would slowly dwindle until you had none left, or it was so "stale" that it was worthless. Now you're unarmed.

Worth repeating.

[Travis McGee]

As much as anything, it's a battle over definitions. If you get the media and the sheeple to adopt your defintitions, you've almost won the war.

They saw how successfully they renamed semi-auto rifles "assault weapons," so they're trying to do the same thing with centerfire rifle ammo by calling it all "armor piercing cop killer bullet" ammo.

It works like a charm with their willing accomplices in the media, and the sheeple swallow it without blinking.

[Travis McGee]

Ruger's making a new varmint rifle and round in .20 caliber. I think it's something like 40gr at 3500, but I might be off.

[Myrddin]

I have mused about pistols chambered in .17HMR since that round was developed.

There are lots of revolvers chambered for .17HMR. S&W makes nice traditional double action in stainless. I also saw a cute 5-shot single-action. I think it is a North American Arms product. The 5-shot requires pulling the basepin from the cylinder to load/unload. Although cute, I won't buy the little 5-shot. The basepin release depends on gravity to lower the catch pin from the underlug. The pin gets fouled with powder and doesn't drop down reliably. It should have use a cam to pull the pin down against a spring that pushes it up.

You can already get a .17HMR barrel for the Contender G2. MidwayUSA offers them in 14", 16 1/4" and 23" blue for $219, $199.95 and $199.95 respectively. At least that was the sale price in December 2003.

[Myrddin]

My FFL mentioned the new .20 Ruger. Sounds interesting. I saw a very nice 5.45X39 rifle this afternoon. I think it was an AK-74. Beautiful condition. Lots of mags.

[TigersEye]

If you get the media and the sheeple to adopt your defintitions, you've almost won the war. ... It works like a charm with their willing accomplices in the media, and the sheeple swallow it without blinking.

You are so right. It's very hard to counter because we can't define it back to reasonable grounds. 'They' are defining based on the emotion of fear and 'we' define things as what they are.

It is hard to get someone to accept a definition for something that is based on simple respect for the unvarnished truth of the object when that person has no interest or affection for it. Strong emotions are easily stirred and leave an impression that lasts even though it's bereft of any knowledge of the subject. How do we fight it? Keep plugging I guess.

Mankind seems unwilling to learn from history or logic and demands of itself repeated lessons in the severity of defying common sense. Could it be that the theory of evolution is more of an insult to apes than it is to men?

[Mr. Mojo]

What a freaking boob Chafee is! Will someone get him to switch parties. He's useless.

Chafee not only votes like a Dem, he votes like an ultra-liberal Dem.