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The Nordic Track
World Magazine ^ | March 6, 2004 | Gene Edward Veith

Posted on 02/27/2004 9:27:14 PM PST by Tangerine Time Machine

The Nordic track

COVER STORY: State approval of homosexual marriage in Scandinavia contributed to the virtual disappearance of real marriage

By Gene Edward Veith

No matter what happens in the homosexual-marriage/civil-union controversies, marriage as an institution isn't going away, is it?

Yes, it is. Marriage has already all but disappeared in Scandinavia. Other Europeans are heading down that Nordic track. And, if gay marriage is legalized, so will we.

That is the conclusion of Stanley Kurtz, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, whose article "The End of Marriage in Scandinavia" was published in The Weekly Standard.

Sweden was the first country in Europe to legalize homosexual unions in 1989, and Denmark and Norway followed soon thereafter. Today, a majority of children in those countries are born out of wedlock. Although some older couples are getting married after having more than one child, younger couples are dispensing with marriage altogether. Southern Seminary president Al Mohler reports that in Sweden, the few young couples who do get married often do not like to admit it, since what they have done is so far out of the norm that they feel embarrassed.

Couples just live together for awhile. If the woman has a baby, the father-unlike in the United States-will typically stay around until the baby reaches a certain age. Until recently, if they had a second child together, they would typically get married, but this has changed for the new generation. Once the children are grown, the parents typically go their separate ways.

What role has gay marriage played in the disappearance of marriage in Scandinavia? "Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated," says Mr. Kurtz, "and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable."

More direct causes Mr. Kurtz cites include the Scandinavian welfare state, which means that the family unit is no longer necessary for economic support. Plus, to support that welfare state, taxes are so high that both parents have to work. A vast state day-care system has taken over many of the child-care duties that once were the job of families. Also, the universities are even more radical than they are in the United States, with socialists, feminists, and other social revolutionaries-including those who denounce marriage as being intrinsically oppressive-having a huge influence in public policy.

Homosexual marriage has contributed to the dissolution of marriage as a significant institution in Scandinavian culture primarily by contributing to the notion that marriage need have nothing to do with having children.

Most instructive for Americans is what happened with Norway, traditionally the most conservative of the Scandinavian states. Sweden and Denmark have always been far more liberal, and in those nations the public wanted gay marriage. In Norway, though, the general public had gay marriage foisted upon it from above, by elite judges and lawmakers. The state Lutheran church opposed not only gay marriage but the growing trend of cohabitation and having children out of wedlock. The church also fought an internal battle over the ordination of those in homosexual unions.

The media covered the church's debates over these issues, taking every opportunity to attack and ridicule Christian teachings about sexuality and marriage. As a result, the church's traditionally strong influence on Norwegian society declined. When the dust settled, the liberal pro-gay and cohabitation theologians, who were once in a minority, took over the leadership of the church.

Another important finding about the Scandinavian experience with what Mr. Kurtz describes as "de facto" gay marriage-actually, they are "civil unions"-is how few homosexuals actually enter into them. A study published by Yale's William Eskridge in 2000 showed that after nine years, only 2,372 homosexual couples took advantage of the Danish law allowing gay unions. After four years, only 749 gay Swedes and only 674 gay Norwegians bothered to "get married."

Today's gay activists in Scandinavia, having gotten everything they wanted, now admit that their case for homosexual marriage-particularly that allowing gays to marry will encourage a monogamous lifestyle-was only a tactical argument. The goal, says Mr. Kurtz, citing two prominent gay thinkers, "was not marriage but social approval for homosexuality."

They achieved that goal, but now there is little social approval for marriage.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: accesstokids; civilunion; homosexual; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; homosexualmarriage; marriage; norway; prisoners; rome; samesexmarriage; scandinavia; stanleykurtz; sweden
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To: Paleo Conservative
I wonder what their Viking ancestors would say about this. I bet they're rolling over in their graves.

Their Viking ancestors were mostly pagans. The conversion to Christianity was the result of English, French and German attempts to subvert Viking power, usually by baptizing some pretender to a Viking throne and sending them back with mercenaries to overthrow the legitimate Viking rulers.

The conversion of Scandinavia to Christianity generally marks the end of the Viking period. Christianity changed them from fierce warriors to the pusillanimous wimps of today.

21 posted on 02/28/2004 8:15:18 AM PST by Lessismore
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To: Tangerine Time Machine
As usual, the real agenda of these monsters is not their stated agenda.
22 posted on 02/28/2004 8:15:49 AM PST by Gritty ("Only a society that has abandoned reason would knowingly undermine the family"-Chuck Colson)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
From a previous thread:

The study found that 25 male college students in a three-county region of North Carolina have been diagnosed with HIV since 2001, and nearly 90% of those students were black men whose infections resulted from homosexual sex.

I think they just had not been targeted until recently.

23 posted on 02/28/2004 9:12:05 AM PST by TaxRelief (March 20. Fayetteville. FReep 'til you drop.)
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To: TaxRelief
Interesting. Well it also covers my theory that college is where most people get indoctrinated to being gay, through drug parties, peer pressure, and college professors.

Anyone going to college is definitely targeted.

And anyone in public or private school is also targeted.
24 posted on 02/28/2004 9:24:33 AM PST by I_Love_My_Husband (Borders, Language, Culture, Straights - now more than ever)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
17 to 20-yr-olds are at a phase in their life where they are determining their personal tastes for things. Kids this age often radically change their preferences for foods, cars, music, entertainment and moral codes. Some of the new preferences stick with them for life, but in some areas the kids eventually revert to their upbringings. (religion).

With this in mind, it would seem to make sense that college is the best place to recruit participants for any agenda. However, sexuality is determined more permanently by incidents that occur at an earlier age.

There is a tremendous amount of research concerning this at NARTH and at on another thread quoting a NARTH professional.
25 posted on 02/28/2004 9:51:08 AM PST by TaxRelief (March 20. Fayetteville. FReep 'til you drop.)
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To: Tax-chick
Later
26 posted on 02/28/2004 6:15:49 PM PST by Tax-chick ("I will not be wronged; I will not be insulted." (John Wayne)
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To: anguish; AzSteven; Bartholomew Roberts; bc2; Charles Henrickson; duke_h3; Eurotwit; fdsa2; ...
Hej! to the Swedish Ping List.
27 posted on 02/28/2004 6:19:20 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (Keeper of the Swedish Ping List.)
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To: Tangerine Time Machine
The author of this article, Gene Edward Veith, is an insightful observer of society and culture--and, a fellow LCMS Lutheran!
28 posted on 02/28/2004 6:21:09 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (LCMS pastor)
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To: Tangerine Time Machine
Marriages in Sweden, year and couples married:
Year   Marriages
1970 43278
1971 39918
1972 38636
1973 38251
1974 44864
1975 44103
1976 44790
1977 40370
1978 37844
1979 37300
1980 37569
1981 37793
1982 37051
1983 36210
1984 36849
1985 38297
1986 38906
1987 41223
1988 44229
1989 108919
1990 40477
1991 36836
1992 37173
1993 34005
1994 34203
1995 33642
1996 33784
1997 32313
1998 31598
1999 35628
2000 39895
2001 35778
2002 38012
2003 39041
The hike in 1989, the same year homosexual unions were legalized, was due to a change in law that made living in a marriage more "profitable" in regard to widows and widowers.

The falling numbers from 1993 to 1998 are generally explained by the economic turmoil Sweden went through - historically couples have been less likely to marry when the economy has been down.

29 posted on 02/29/2004 1:04:37 AM PST by anguish (while science catches up.... mysticism!)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
"not that I disagree with you, but what about the black community? I don't think they have as many gays percentage wise as do whites
With all due respect, I assume you've never been in jail or prison. The population is something like 70% black and rape is as common as eating breakfast. Or doesn't getting sodomized (and getting AIDS) by Tyrone count as homosexual or 'gay'?
30 posted on 02/29/2004 7:07:19 AM PST by Condor51 ("Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments." -- Frederick the Great)
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To: Condor51
There's a website called www.stopprisonrape.com or something like that that has those statistics.

I think there's a lot of illegal immigrants in prison as well as blacks. And I don't think illegals are just 30% of the prison population. It's probably 40% or higher.
31 posted on 02/29/2004 7:14:48 AM PST by I_Love_My_Husband (Borders, Language, Culture, Straights - now more than ever)
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To: anguish
What about the uptick from 1999 on?
32 posted on 03/09/2004 7:24:41 PM PST by mrustow
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To: Tangerine Time Machine
All he did was tell us what Stanley Kurtz said. This is no more a legitimate article, than a gay "marriage" is a real marriage. Now I have to go find the real article, by Kurtz. And Veith got paid for this?
33 posted on 03/09/2004 7:26:57 PM PST by mrustow
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To: mrustow
What about the uptick from 1999 on?
Parts of it is supposed to be the recovering economy, with the rest being that it's become more "fashionable" to get married the last couple of years. Apparently not only the fashion of clothes change through the years.

I have a hard time seeing the effects the article talks about in the statistics and the interpretation the experts are offering (though it's possible they're all ultra-liberal and wouldn't ever point towards homosexual marriage). Lacking convincing evidence, it seems to me Stanley Kurtz first decided what result he thought was appropriate and then interpreted the data to fit the hypothesis.

34 posted on 03/10/2004 2:17:12 AM PST by anguish (while science catches up.... mysticism!)
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To: anguish
So, if your stats are accurate then the whole premise of the article is rubbish?
35 posted on 03/10/2004 2:31:27 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: Killing Time
So, if your stats are accurate then the whole premise of the article is rubbish?
I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but from the data I've seen the conclusions seem, let's say suspect. Being a Swede I can tell you first hand that some things are plain wrong, like that young couples who get married would not like to admit it because of embarrassment, but that could be an innocent error. As I haven't read the original article refered to here it's hard to say more.

That out-of-wedlock parenthood is acceptable here in Sweden has, in my opinion (not supported by any fancy statistics), more to do with secularization than anything else. Tying it to homosexual "marriage" seems to me like blaiming the effect for the cause.

36 posted on 03/10/2004 2:57:13 AM PST by anguish (while science catches up.... mysticism!)
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To: anguish
Interesting insights. My sister was engaged to a Swede until recently. Although it didn't work out I never detected any embarrassment factor at play.
37 posted on 03/10/2004 3:07:36 AM PST by Killing Time
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