High Court: OK to Deny Aid to Divinity Students

Fox News ^ | 02/25/04 | AP

[Modernman]

WASHINGTON

[Gelato]

I don't think vouchers would work for higher education, as is the case here.

My point is, if we separated public funds from all higher education . . . problem solved.

(I personally don't like vouchers.)

[TheDon]

Agreed. It is apparent that the state can no longer provide schooling.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Or, in other words .... If people should have their taxdollars used to fund the education of clergy for Christians, then the same amount of funds should be made available for Muslum, Buddist, Wiccan, Satanic and any other religous schools across the board."

Wrong logic. If the states are providing scholarships based on academic criteria only (which, as I recall, was the purpose of this specific scholarship), then the choice of curriculum should be left to the scholarship recipient.

And yes, that includes allowing the student the choice to study ANY of the religions/"religions" you listed.

[jwalsh07]

Because the money would be used to train a clergyman who would only serve one, distinct congregation. Therefore, taxpayers who are not part of that congregation are forced to have their money used to help that congregation.

A false assertion. Sudying Theology implies no such thing.

So much for the Neutrality Doctrine. Back to the secular drawing board.

[MEGoody]

"A Buddist Monk does not go to a Divinity School, but rather choses a way of life. So, by granting taxpayer scholarships carte blanc to Divinity School students, you are showing preferential treatment to those religions that have such schools."

And by giving ANY kind of aid, I am showing preferential treatment to extreme left ideology which is 'preached' is universities across this nation.

I still don't see a reason to single out divinity degrees. It is not the Lutheran's fault that the Buddhists don't require a degree. If the Buddhists are bothered by this, then let them change their criteria to require a degree.

[Modernman]

I need to take lessons on getting to the point from you. I said the same thing in about 10 paragraphs.... Just call me "Mr. Verbose"

Hah. My fiance would disagree with you about my ability to get to the point quickly.

[cherry]

thanks to all you libertarians, you Perotites, you Buchannonites etc.....

by voting in Demonrats, at both the Senate and Presidental levels, you have allowed leftist judges to take over the courts....

if we had a solid majority in the Senate, one that could approve Supreme court judges without Demonrat help, we could see better people in there...

if Maria Cantwell didn't have the help of some 60,000 libertarian votes in Washington STate, plus those suspicious 2000 "provisional" votes, then the Senate would be that much stronger for conservatism....

how much longer are we going to play this game of "I am going to take my toys and go home" mentality with right leaning people that think their view is the only view...

There's a cultural war out there, and you are either with us , or against us....

[Saundra Duffy]

Doesn't make sense.

[Modernman]

It is not the Lutheran's fault that the Buddhists don't require a degree. If the Buddhists are bothered by this, then let them change their criteria to require a degree.

But by giving money to the Lutheran priest in training because his religion requires that specific type of training, you are giving a benefit to one religion based on that religion's practices.

[JamesA]

America is doomed, the few rule the many. Time for drastic changes in this country!

[Modernman]

Doesn't make sense.

It's actually a very limited ruling. All it does is allow Oregon to choose where its financial aid money goes.

[MEGoody]

"Because the money would be used to train a clergyman who would only serve one, distinct congregation."

I pay taxes which aid people to obtain many degrees that I never get 'help' from. This does not seem to be a valid reason for singling out divinity degrees.

[Modernman]

I pay taxes which aid people to obtain many degrees that I never get 'help' from.

Maybe not, but the nature of a Divinity is such that the recipient of the degree can only use his education, by its nature, to work for a certain religious denomination. Thst is not the case with a law, history, medicine or any other degree.

[babyface00]

But by giving money to the Lutheran priest in training because his religion requires that specific type of training, you are giving a benefit to one religion based on that religion's practices

I don't think this line of reasoning really works in this case. Does a divinity degree not include studies in other subjects besides theology?

Lets say psychology is required for a divinity degree. Following this logic, anyone taking a class in psychology would be denied funding because becoming a Lutheran minister requires a divinity degree, which requires psychology classes.

[Modernman]

Lets say psychology is required for a divinity degree. Following this logic, anyone taking a class in psychology would be denied funding because becoming a Lutheran minister requires a divinity degree, which requires psychology classes.

A psychology degree and psychology courses can be used for many things, one of which may be religion. A Divinity degree is only intended for one thing: active practice as a clergyman for a specific denomination. The fact that part of the requirement of a Divinity degree might consist of non-religious classes does not change the end result of such a degree.

[Hodar]

I still don't see a reason to single out divinity degrees. It is not the Lutheran's fault that the Buddhists don't require a degree.

Again, the clergy's degree would go only to serve the congregation to which he belongs. All other groups would be denied his services, as they would run counter to their religion. A History Teacher, Artist, Engineer, Lawyer, MD, Pharmacist benefit everyone.

In my opinion, specialized groups (Lutherns, Catholics, Buddists, Wiccans, etc.) should fund their own clergy. I do not feel compelled to pay for a Catholic Priest, as I am not Catholic. Same thing with Voodo, Buddist, Methodist, Luthern, or others. These clergy ONLY benefit their congregation, thus the members of that particular group should be expected to fund their schools.

On the flip side; if you take taxpayer money to fund your religion, then it would only be fair for the taxpayers to approve what you are teaching.

[babyface00]

A Divinity degree is only intended for one thing: active practice as a clergyman for a specific denomination

What degree do instructors at divinity school have? Are they all ordained ministers? I'm not trying to be adversarial, I just find it odd that any university degree has one, and only one, possible use/outcome. There are plenty of people with engineering degrees who aren't engineers. I don't work in the field in which my degree is. Is a divinity degree really that specific?

[Modernman]

On the flip side; if you take taxpayer money to fund your religion, then it would only be fair for the taxpayers to approve what you are teaching.

Wow. That is the flip side of the coin, isn't it?

[jwalsh07]

I write separately to
note that, in my view, the study of theology does not nec-
essarily implicate religious devotion or faith. The con-
tested statute denies Promise Scholarships to students
who pursue a degree in theology. See Wash. Admin.
Code § 250 80 020( 12) ( g) ( 2003) ( defining an eligible
student, in part, as one who [ i ] s not pursuing a degree
in theology ) ; Wash. Rev. Code Ann. § 28B. 10.814 ( West
1997) ( No aid shall be awarded to any student who is
pursuing a degree in theology ) . But the statute itself
does not define theology. And the usual definition of the
term theology is not limited to devotional studies. . The-
ology is defined as [ t ] he study of the nature of God and
religious truth and the rational inquiry into religious
questions. American Heritage Dictionary 1794 ( 4th ed.
2000) . See also Webster s Ninth New Collegiate Diction-
ary 1223 ( 1991) ( the study of religious faith, practice, and
experience and the study of God and his relation to the
world )

From Justice Thomas' dissent.

[babyface00]

Your description of theology sounds an awful lot like philosophy.

If a philosophy major received this scholarship, and then went on to take additional courses to receive a divinity degree (dual major or graduate work) or just became a minister in some other fashion (a seminary, for example) would the state then expect him/her to repay the original schlarship for the philosophy degree?