Plants Give Up Secret Of Splitting Water

Holy cow, I sure look forward to the day I can fill up my tank with a garden hose.

I simply would not be to excited about driving a potential bomb around.

You already do that with gasoline.

bump

BS

Discovering the marvelous and intricate mechanisms that the Designer placed in living things when he created them, and using these discovered mechanisms in new technologies is not "harnessing evolution."

I would think that you would need to keep the hydrogen and oxygen in a stable state (water) until the "last minute" (just before it is used as fuel for combustion).

Then you would be carrying around 8 lbs of worse-than-useless oxygen with each 1 lb of hydrogen. The amount of energy for splitting would have to be on-board (or with roof of grass). The weight and waste overhead would be high. If the energy to split the water were on-board, it could be used to drive the wheels directly rather than through the intermediary of the hydrogen. One of the useful (and I use the word loosely) points of using hydrogen is that it doesn't weigh very much.

If gasoline explodes you MIGHT die.

If the Hydrogen tank explodes you WILL die and take out those unfortunate enough to be in a 20 or so foot radius around you (probably much larger radius).

.. but I do get your point. :-)

I simply would not be to excited about driving a potential bomb around.

Better give up your gasoline car, then. Ounce per ounce (volume or weight), gasoline is closer to a bomb than hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that it's so hard to keep it from leaking that fires are more likely, but they'd be small leak fires, not bombs. At least, I still believe we could solve the storage issue well enough to preclude 'bombs' in situations that wouldn't also turn a gasoline tank into a bomb.

The three biggest problems with hydrogen fuel, as I see it, are: 1) How to make the hydrogen in the first place. That's actually solvable with nuclear power but that's politically more difficult than the rest of the technology challenges. 2) How to store it and transport it without losses so wasteful it's economically impractical. I think these are solvable, but we've got a huge investment in a gasoline infrastructure. Even if the hydrogen itself were free (and it never will be), the distribution infrastructure will be enormous. That's an economic issue, not a technical one. And 3) Hydrogen is a low energy density fuel. To get more or less equivalent range, you need tanks that are at least 4 times as large. And they need to be much better tanks to keep the leakage down (which is a key part of making them equivalently safe). That's basic chemistry, and it's not going to go away. The actual weight of fuel is much less than gasoline that would provide equivalent range, so that's not really an issue. Something that is not volume limited like a big tractor-trailer rig might work well. But to replace ordinary cars, we'd have to give up our trunks and back seats - or grow cars quite a bit. That's going to be tough to sell.

On the other hand, none of those are truly technical issues. We could do this now, if we wanted.

BTW, none of this will happen if the government continues to regulate every aspect of life in this country.

Boy howdy! And the trend is against us. You couldn't 'sell' a gasoline (petroleum)-based transportation system nowadays. The socialists want all authority and rights to be collective, so they'll fight anything that looks like a true choice for consumers all the way. The only way to 'sell' this is to hook it to shared transportation initiatives. That's another reason we'll see it on buses and trains before we see it in private cars. Or perhaps we'll change conventional power generation stations to burn hydrogen that is made elsewhere, which (if nuclear plants are used to generate the hydrogen) will reduce our dependence on foreign oil and reduce pollution. But I don't see it in cars for a long time to come.

...gasoline is closer to a bomb than hydrogen...

Only if mixed with an oxidizer (air.) Hydrogen spontaneously mixes better although it contains less energy.

Actually gasoline vapors are MUCH more explosive than an equivalent volume of hydrogen gas.

Plus, being lighter than air,hydrogen tends to explode upward with a big poof and it's gone. That's why so many passengers survived the Hindenburg.

The laws of physics prevent me from responding to you.

They don't prevent these people from spouting hot air! It still is an interesting post.

There is some good work being done right now on sponge-like tanks that would make it much harder for the hydrogen to escape whether it is sealed or ruptured.

Did anybody notice the little barb at Bush in the beginning, saying that separation was sci-fi and Bush-speak? And then he went on to mention that we regularly do this using electrolysis (standard high school chemistry exp). That would be a contradiction in anybody but a lib's world.

If gasoline explodes you MIGHT die.

1 gallon of gasoline has the explosive force of several sticks of TNT.

Hydrogen burns ... just some thoughts

BS. Discovering the marvelous and intricate mechanisms that the Designer placed in living things when he created them, and using these discovered mechanisms in new technologies is not "harnessing evolution."

You're right, that wouldn't be, but then since that's not what I'm talking about, you point falls pretty flat.

You can begin your education on this topic by reading some of the following papers, all available online:

81 The royal road for genetic algorithms: Fitness landscapes an.. - Mitchell, Forrest et al.
74 Complexity compression and evolution - Nordin, Banzhaf
74 Genetic programming for feature discovery and image discrimi.. - Tackett
67 When will a genetic algorithm outperform hill-climbing - Mitchell, Holland - 1993
65 Multiobjective optimization using the niched Pareto GA - rey, Nicholas - 1993
63 A comprehensive survey of evolutionary-based multiobjective .. - Coello - 1999
61 Species adaptation genetic algorithms: The basis for a conti.. - Harvey - 1992
58 A bibliography of evolutionary computation & applications (context) - Saravanan, Fogel - 1993
56 and evolutionary strategies bibliographic database entries (context) - ack, evolutionary - 1993
46 Evolutionary robotics and saga: the case for hill crawling a.. (context) - Harvey - 1992
44 Nichingmethods for genetic algorithms - Samir - 1995
43 Genetic programming and redundancy - Blickle, Thiele - 1994
43 Parallel Problem Solving from Nature (context) - anner, Manderick - 1992
42 Genetic algorithms (context) - Holland - 1992
41 Evolving cellular automata to perform computations: Mechanis.. (context) - Mitchell, Crutcheld et al. - 1993
39 A parallel genetic algorithm for solving the school timetabl.. - Abramson, Abela - 1992
39 A parallel genetic algorithm for solving the school timetabl.. - Abramson, Abela - 1992
39 An overview of evolutionary algorithms for parameter optimiz.. (context) - ack, Schwefel - 1993
37 Evolving turing-complete programs for a register machine wit.. - Nordin, Banzhaf
32 A learning process for fuzzy control rules using genetic alg.. - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1995
31 A comparison of selection schemes used in genetic algorithms - Blickle, Thiele - 1995
31 Tackling real-coded genetic algorithms: operators and tools .. - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1994
30 Stochastic hillclimbing as a baseline method for evaluating .. - Juels, Wettenberg - 1994
29 A parallel genetic algorithm for the set partitioning proble.. - Levine - 1994
29 A mathematical analysis of tournament selection - Blickle, Thiele
29 A parallel genetic algorithm for the set partitioning proble.. - Levine - 1994
28 AddisonWesley Publishing Company (context) - Lamport, Preparation et al. - 1994
28 Evolutionary algorithms in neural network design and trainin.. - urgen
28 Generating fuzzy rules from examples using genetic algorithm.. - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1995
27 Applicability of the fuzzy operators in the design of fuzzy .. (context) - Cord, Francisco et al. - 1994
27 Object-oriented implementation of heuristic search methods f.. (context) - Fleurent, Ferland - 1995
27 The puzzle of the persistent question marks: a case study of.. - Harvey - 1993
27 Evolving globally synchronized cellular automata - Das, Crutcheld et al. - 1995
27 Applications of evolutionary algorithms - ack, Ho et al. - 1992
25 and Richard Stallman (context) - Close, Robbins et al. - 1993
25 The Design and Analysis of a Computational Model of Cooperat.. - Potter - 1997
24 Training agents to perform sequential behavior - Colombetti, Dorigo - 1993
24 Parallel Problem Solving from Nature { PPSN IV (context) - Voigt, Ebeling et al. - 1996
24 Tuning fuzzy logic controllers by genetic algorithm (context) - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1993
23 Analysing recurrent dynamical networks evolved for robot con.. (context) - Husbands, Harvey et al. - 1992
23 Genetic set recombination - Radcli
22 Halftoning technique using genetic algorithm (context) - Kobayashi, Saito - 1995
22 Half-toning technique using genetic algorithm (context) - Kobayashi, Saito - 1994
22 What makes a problem hard for a genetic algorithm (context) - Forrest, Mitchell - 1993
21 A general study on genetic fuzzy systems - Cord, Francisco
20 Construction of high-order deceptive functions using low-ord.. (context) - Goldberg - 1990
20 Using marker-based genetic encoding of neural networks to ev.. - Fullmer, Miikkulainen
18 A parallel genetic algorithm for the graph partitioning prob.. (context) - Talbi, Bessi - 1991
18 Genetic convergence in a species of evolved robot control ar.. - Harvey, Husbands et al. - 1992
18 HGA: A hardware-based genetic algorithm - Scott - 1994
17 Genetic Algorithms and Grouping Problems (context) - Falkenauer - 1997
17 Evolutionary Algorithms in Engineering Applications - Dasgupta, Michalewicz - 1997
17 Treating constraints as objectives for single-objective evol.. - Coello - 1999
17 Genetic Algorithms for Pattern Recognition (context) - Pal, Wang - 1996
17 Genetic programming for pedestrians - Banzhaf
16 Hierarchical Learning with Procedural Abstraction Mechnisms - Rosca - 1997
15 Using a genetic algorithm to learn behaviors for autonomous .. - Schultz, Grefestette - 1992
15 Learning and complexity in genetic auto-adaptive systems (context) - Adami - 1993
15 An overview of genetic algorithms (context) - Beasley, Bull et al. - 1993
15 An overview of genetic algorithms (context) - Beasley, Bull et al. - 1993
15 A genetic algorithm solution to the unit commitment problem (context) - Kazarlis, Bakirtzis et al. - 1995
14 The saga cross: the mechanics of recombination for species w.. - Harvey - 1992
14 Department of Electrical Engineering Systems (context) - Tackett, selection et al. - 1994
13 Varela and Paul Bourgine (context) - Francisco - 1991
13 Generic Evolutionary Design of Solid Objects using a Genetic.. (context) - Bentley - 1996
13 Fuzzy tools to improve genetic algorithms - Herrera, Herrera-Viedma et al.
13 Tackling fuzzy genetic algorithm (context) - Herrera, Lozano et al.
13 A genetic algorithm for constrained and multiobjective optim.. (context) - Camponogara, Talukdar
13 Virtual genetic algorithms: First results - Grefenstette - 1995
12 Application of genetic algorithm to stereo matching (context) - Saito, Mori - 1994
12 Co-evolution of pursuit and evasion I: Biological and game-t.. (context) - rey, Miller et al. - 1994
12 Genetic algorithm search of multiresolution tree with applic.. (context) - Chu - 1994
12 Application of genetic algorithms to stereo matching of imag.. (context) - Saito, Mori - 1995
12 A three-stage method for designing genetic fuzzy systems by .. (context) - Cord, Francisco et al.
12 Indexed bibliography of genetic algorithms with fuzzy system.. - Alander - 1995
11 Genetic algorithm solution to the economic dispatch problem - Bakirtzis, Petridis et al. - 1994
11 Department of Information Technology and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, of et al. - 1995
11 Review of parallel genetic algorithms bibliography - Adamidis - 1994
11 Heuristic crossovers for real-coded genetic algorithms based.. (context) - Herrera, Lozano
11 Learning robot behaviors using genetic algorithms - Schultz - 1994
11 Evolving complex Othello strategies using marker-based genet.. - Moriarty, Miikkulainen - 1993
11 Department of Information Technology and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, of et al. - 1995
11 Department of Information Technology and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, of et al. - 1995
11 Constrained gas network pipe sizing with genetic algorithms - Boyd, Surry et al. - 1994
11 Implicit parallelism in genetic algorithms - Bertoni, Dorigo - 1993
11 Department of Information Technology and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, of et al. - 1995
10 A New Genetic Algorithm for the Evolution of Fuzzy Systems (context) - Leitch - 1995
10 Proceedings of the Second European Congress on Intelligent T.. (context) - the, Congress et al. - 1994
10 Adaptation of genetic algorithm parameters based on fuzzy lo.. - Herrera, Lozano - 1996
10 Evolving a sort: Lessons in genetic programming - Kinnear - 1993
10 Advances in Genetic Programming (context) - Altenberg, genetic et al. - 1994
10 Short term unit-commitment using genetic algorithms - Dasgupta, McGregor - 1993
10 Forma analysis and random respectful recombination - Radcli - 1991
10 Genetic Algorithms for Machine Learning (context) - Grefenstette - 1994
10 The use of fuzzy connectives to design real-coded genetic al.. - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1995
9 Flexible ligand docking using a genetic algorithm (context) - Oshiro, Kuntz et al. - 1995
9 Robot shaping: Developing situated agents through learning - Dorigo, Colombetti - 1992
9 Using a new GA-based multiobjective optimization technique f.. (context) - Coello, Christiansen et al. - 1998
9 Equivalence class analysis of genetic algorithms (context) - Radcli - 1991
9 Evolutionary growth perceptrons (context) - Romaniuk - 1993
9 Equivalence class analysis of genetic algorithms (context) - Radcli - 1990
8 Indexed bibliography of distributed genetic algorithms - Alander - 1995
8 Incremental evolution of neural network architechtures for a.. (context) - Cli, Harvey et al. - 1992
8 Learning Algorithms: Theory and Applications in Signal Proce.. (context) - Chen, Nambiar et al. - 1997
8 Analysis of evolved sensory-motor controllers (context) - Cli, Husbands et al. - 1992
8 Protein structure prediction with evolutionary algorithms - Krasnogor, Hart et al. - 1999
8 Generating software test data by evolution - McGraw, Michael et al. - 1998
8 Practical Genetic Algorithms (context) - Haupt, Haupt - 1998
8 Incremental evolution of neural network architectures for ad.. (context) - Cli, Husbands et al. - 1993
8 Genetic algorithms for codebook generation in vector quantiz.. - Fr, Juha et al.
8 An Analysis of Genetic Programming (context) - O'Reilly - 1995
8 An updated survey of ga-based multiobjective optimization te.. - Coello - 1998
8 Genetic algorithms for the development of fuzzy controllers .. (context) - Leitch, Probert
8 Genetic algorithms and neighbourhood search - Reeves - 1994
8 A hardware engine for genetic algorithms - Scott, Seth et al. - 1997
8 An introduction to GALOPPS { the \Genetic ALgorithm Optimize.. (context) - Goodman - 1996
8 SAGA: sequence alignment by genetic algorithm (context) - edric, Desmond et al. - 1996
8 Using learning to facilitate the evolution of features for r.. - Bala, De Jong et al. - 1997
8 A simple genetic algorithm for the design of reinforced conc.. (context) - Coello, Christiansen et al. - 1997
7 Industrial applications of evolutionary algorithms at Siemen.. (context) - ohfeld
7 Parallel genetic algorithms for multiobjective functions (context) - Rowe, Vinsen et al.
7 Extraction of the human face from natural background using G.. (context) - Suzuki, Saito et al. - 1996
7 Assessing the evolutionary algorithm paradigm to solve hard .. - Preux, Talbi - 1995
7 RoboShepherd: Learning a complex behavior - Schultz, Grefenstette et al. - 1996
7 Two new GA-based methods for multiobjective optimization (context) - Coello, Christiansen - 1999
7 Topological aspects of genetic algorithms - Iwamoto, Banzhaf et al. - 1993
7 A synthesizable VHDL coding of a genetic algorithm - Scott, Seth et al. - 1997
7 Implementation of genetic algorithms with programmable logic.. (context) - Tommiska, Vuori
7 A hybrid neuro-genetic pattern evolution system applied to m.. (context) - Burton - 1998
7 Is there another new factor in evolution - Harvey - 1997
7 An Investigation of Supervised Learning in Genetic Programmi.. - Gathercole - 1998
7 Evolving robot control systems (context) - Lund
6 The crossover landscape for the onemax problem - ohn, Reeves
6 Toward automatic generation of novice user test scripts (context) - Kasik, George - 1996
6 Use of a self-adaptive penalty approach for engineering opti.. - Coello - 1999
6 Applying genetic algorithms in fuzzy optimization problems - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1994
6 MOSES: A multiobjective optimization tool for engineering de.. (context) - Coello, Christiansen - 1999
6 Comparing evolutionary programs and evolutionary pattern sea.. - Hart - 1999
6 Shape modeling from multiple images using genetic algorithms (context) - Saito, Mori - 1996
6 Adaptive genetic algorithms based on fuzzy techniques - Herrera, Lozano - 1996
6 Genetic algorithms and fuzzy logic in control processes (context) - Cord, Francisco et al. - 1995
6 Genetic algorithms and fuzzy logic in control processes (context) - Cord, Francisco et al. - 1996
6 Department of Information Processing and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, review et al. - 1996
6 Department of Information Processing and Production Economic.. (context) - Alander, yleiskatsaus et al. - 1996
6 Pattern discovery from data using genetic algorithms (context) - Pei, Goodman et al. - 1997
6 Superquadrics parameter estimation from a shading image usin.. - Tsunashima, Saito - 1996
6 Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre (context) - Radcli, set et al. - 1991
6 Empirical comparison of stochastic algorithms in a graph opt.. (context) - Lahtinen, Myllym et al.
6 Shape modeling of multiple objects from shading images using.. (context) - Saito, Kimura - 1996
6 Neural Network Training Using Genetic Algorithms (context) - Van Rooij, Jain et al. - 1997
6 An analysis of Boltzmann tournament selection (context) - Mahfoud - 1991
6 An interactive image retrieval system using genetic algorith.. (context) - Shiraki, Saito - 1996
6 Knowledge-based genetic learning - Rost, Oechtering - 1997
6 Use of genetic algorithms to learn ligand recognition concep.. (context) - Aspn, Victor et al.
6 Combining genetic algorithms and neural networks: The encodi.. - Koehn - 1994
6 Protein structure prediction as a hard optimization problem:.. (context) - Khimasia, Coveney - 1998
6 Strings of weights as chromosomes in genetic algorithms for .. (context) - Julstrom
6 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (context) - Mahfoud, Goldberg et al. - 1992
6 Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre (context) - Radcli, genetic et al. - 1992
6 An inquiry into the behavior of adaptive operator probabilit.. (context) - Julstrom
6 Toward a mechanics of conceptual machines - Goldberg - 1995
6 A study in set recombination - Radcli, Felicity et al.
6 Genetic Algorithms for Control and Signal Processing (context) - Man, Tang et al. - 1997
5 Separation process synthesis with genetic algorithm (context) - Hurme
5 i and Heikki N. Koivo. Genes, codes, and dynamic systems (context) - Hy
5 One-step-ahead prediction of sunspots with genetic programmi.. (context) - aske
5 Soft genetic operators in evolutionary algorithms - Voigt
5 parametric models from shading image using genetic algorithm.. (context) - Saito, Tsunashima - 1994
5 Mitsubishi Electric Research Laboratories (context) - Banzhaf, for et al. - 1993
5 Predicting sunspot numbers with evolutionarily optimized neu.. (context) - Kyng, Juha
5 Genetic algorithms in image processing - a review (context) - Bounsaythip, Alander
5 Genetic algorithms for timetabling (context) - Nice
5 Global Optimization for Articulated Figures: Molecular Struc.. (context) - Ngo - 1993
5 Position estimation by image analysis and fuzzy genetic algo.. (context) - Wu, cois et al.
5 Shape optimization of diesel fuel injection cam by genetic a.. (context) - Alander, Lampinen
5 A messy genetic algorithm in C (context) - Deb, Goldberg - 1991
5 Some aspects of time in genetic algorithms (context) - Sandqvist
5 Generation of blue noise arrays by genetic algorithm - rey, Bove - 1997
5 sGA: A structured genetic algorithm - Dasgupta, McGregor - 1993
5 Design of a control rules base based on genetic algorithms - Herrera, Lozano et al. - 1995
5 Searching for shortest common supersequences by means of a h.. - urgen, Martin
5 Shaping from shading using genetic algorithm (context) - Usami, Saito - 1994
5 Dynamic planning of distribution networks for minimum regret.. (context) - Miranda, Proenca et al. - 1994
5 Deception and GA-hardness (context) - Rowe, East
5 Choosing the best set of bankruptcy predictors - Back, Sere et al.
5 Indexed bibliography of genetic algorithms in optics and ima.. - Alander - 1995
5 Diploidy without dominance (context) - Ryan
5 Using the genetic algorithm and neural network to solve the .. (context) - Kochergov
5 Generating and selecting fuzzy control rules using evolution.. (context) - Cord, Francisco - 1996
5 Some non-biological metaphors for genetic algorithms (context) - Reeves
4 Mixed tones estimation for transcription using GA (context) - Ono, Saito et al. - 1997
4 Genetic fuzzy clustering by means of discovering membership .. (context) - Turhan - 1997
4 A simple estimate of population size in genetic algorithms f.. (context) - Julstrom
4 A genetic approach to bin-packing (context) - Reeves
4 Evolutionary Learning Algorithms for Neural Adaptive Control (context) - Dracopoulos - 1997
4 Optimizing elevator group control parameters using distribut.. (context) - Alander, Tyni et al.

Understood.

But it is still the only way I would drive one of these vehicles.

Like I pointed out earlier, while gasoline is explosive, the likelihood of death is MUCH greater with a hydrogen explosion. The refueling process also brings with it certain unsatisfactory conditions.

Regardless of all this, I really don't believe that Hydrogen will be the means of combustion in future engines and I don't think that combustion will the means of power generation. Once again though, all this is based on the day when people are once again allowed to do dangerous things where people may get hurt or killed. Without the ability to try things out there will never be innovation.

The volume would not be equivalent. Hydrogen would likely be compressed into a container therefore upon rupture would dramatically expand.

A couple of timid thoughts.

1. Would the system only use distilled (pure water)? If not, how would additonal contaminats, minerals, particals in the water be dealt with?

Let the plants that are doing the converting deal with it. They always have.

2. How would we deal with areas of the country like the South West that has very high mineral content in the water to begin with and where, due to population influx, will in 20 to 30 years have a critical water shortage? Do we drink the stuff of put it in our transportation?

Don't make hydrogen fuel in the Southwest.

"The laws of physics show that it will never be possible to get cheap hydrogen and therefore it is a waste of time to even look for a solution."

Tell me the law of physics, and I'll tell you where you you're wrong. There is not cost-benefit analysis in any one of them.

And what is the explosive force of a 16 gallon tank holding PRESSURIZED hydrogen?

I am not being a smarta$$ either, I am curious about this.

The word "dinosaur" came onto the scene in the 1800's. In the Bible, they were referred-to as 'beheamoths', 'tannin', etc.

Reference Job 40:15

"Behold the Behemoth: I created him and I created you. He eats grass like an ox but what strength is in his body, and what power is in his muscles. His tail is like a cedar tree, and muscles in his legs are strong. His bones are strong as bronze, and his legs are like iron bars, the most amazing of all my creatures! Only his creator can defeat him. Grass to feed him grows on the hills where wild beasts play. He lies down under the thorn bushes, and the willows by the stream give him shelter in the shade....."

Tell me the law of physics, and I'll tell you where you you're wrong.

Let' start woth the first law:

the total energy of the system plus the surroundings is constant

If you can violate that one we are rich!