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Scientists Discover Where Snakes Lived When They Evolved into Limbless Creatures
Penn State ^ | 30 January 2004 | press release

Posted on 02/03/2004 2:37:14 PM PST by AdmSmith

The mystery of where Earth's first snakes lived as they were evolving into limbless creatures from their lizard ancestors has intrigued scientists for centuries. Now, the first study ever to analyze genes from all the living families of lizards has revealed that snakes made their debut on the land, not in the ocean. The discovery resolves a long-smoldering debate among biologists about whether snakes had a terrestrial or a marine origin roughly 150 million years ago--a debate rekindled recently by controversial research in favor of the marine hypothesis.

In a paper to be published in the 7 May 2004 issue of the Royal Society journal Biology Letters, Nicolas Vidal, a postdoctoral fellow, and S. Blair Hedges, a professor of biology at Penn State, describe how they put the two theories to the test. They collected the largest genetic data set for snakes and lizards ever used to address this question. Their collection includes two genes from 64 species representing all 19 families of living lizards and 17 of the 25 families of living snakes.

Genetic material from some of the lizards was difficult to obtain because some species live only on certain small islands or in remote parts of the world. "We felt it was important to analyze genes from all the lizard groups because almost every lizard family has been suggested as being the one most closely related to snakes. If we had failed to include genes from even one of the lizard families, we could have missed getting the right answer," Hedges explains.

"For the marine hypothesis to be correct, snakes must be the closest relative of the only lizards known to have lived in the ocean when snakes evolved--the giant, extinct mosasaur lizards," Vidal says. "While we can't analyze the genes of the extinct mosasaurs, we can use the genes of their closest living cousins, monitor lizards like the giant Komodo Dragon," he explains.

The team analyzed gene sequences from each of the species, using several statistical methods to determine how the species are related. "Although these genes have the same function in each species--and so, by definition, are the same gene--their structure in each species is slightly different because of mutations that have developed over time," Vidal explains. When the genetic comparisons were complete, Vidal and Hedges had a family tree showing the relationships of the species.

"Our results show clearly that snakes are not closely related to monitor lizards like the giant Komodo Dragon, which are the closest living relatives of the mosasaurs--the only known marine lizard living at the time that snakes evolved," Vidal says. "Because all the other lizards at that time lived on the land, our study provides strong evidence that snakes evolved on the land, not in the ocean."

The research suggests an answer to another long-debated question: why snakes lost their limbs. Their land-based lifestyle, including burrowing underground at least some of the time, may be the reason. "Having limbs is a real problem if you need to fit through small openings underground, as anybody who has tried exploring in caves knows," Hedges says. "Your body could fit through much smaller openings if you did not have the wide shoulders and pelvis that support your limbs." The researchers note that the burrowing lifestyle of many other species, including legless lizards, is correlated with the complete loss of limbs or the evolution of very small limbs.

This research was supported by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Astrobiology Institute and the National Science Foundation.

(Excerpt) Read more at science.psu.edu ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; science
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To: ZULU
That makes interpreting the Bible in some cases, not a simple literal exercise, doesn't it?

I believe it takes work to appreciate the full extent of what truth is contained in every verse. Just as we could find endless truth and information from an once of pond water, the same depths are contained within each verse.

161 posted on 02/04/2004 10:21:46 AM PST by VRWC_minion (Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and most are right)
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To: ZULU
BUT, it would seem to me that scientific evidence indicates God used a lower creature to produce the first man.

Try as you might, Zulu, you cannot reconcile evolution and creation. I know that many people attempt to do this and convince themselves it is right, but it is not.

Either God created man or he didn't. I believe the former and it doesn't agree with any theory of evolution.

162 posted on 02/04/2004 10:22:55 AM PST by Southflanknorthpawsis
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
See # 157.

Also check out some of VRWC_minion's responses.
163 posted on 02/04/2004 10:24:10 AM PST by ZULU (GOD BLESS SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY!!!)
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To: ZULU
Don't you think though, that whether or not an event related in a parable was real or not is not really important, as long as we "get the message"? In the world in which Christ lived, parables were frequent methods of teaching some priniciple.

Yes, of course but just as the examples used to describe sowing to farmers have to be true or the farmers would reject the message that follows, I believe that the creation story cannot be literally untrue. This is not to mean that it is possible for us to discern the literal truth of those verses, unlike what some fundamentalists believe possible.

164 posted on 02/04/2004 10:25:21 AM PST by VRWC_minion (Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and most are right)
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To: VRWC_minion
I can't fihure out whether or not you're a Creationist or Evolutionist.

Of course the parable had to have some realtionship to truth in the sense that the hearers could get the point. Bu that doesn't necessarily imply that the specific occurance narrated actually occured.

I believe the essence of the creation story - God created man out of something less than man was and gave him woman as his companion is literally true. That doesn't mean the window dressing around that basic concept is necessarily true and I don't beleive it is.
165 posted on 02/04/2004 10:29:58 AM PST by ZULU (GOD BLESS SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY!!!)
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To: js1138
That's the very definition of clintonian: finding an obscure definition of a word that makes your statement true, even though no one would ever suspect that definition in its original context. There's a word for this, but my vocabulary fails me this morning. It means deliberately using a word in a way that is literally true, but deceitful in its effect on the listener.

The fallacy of ambiguity.

166 posted on 02/04/2004 10:33:31 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Theory: a comprehensible, falsifiable, cause-and-effect explanation of verifiable facts.)
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To: ZULU
"The Christian should also recognize that evolution is bad Scripture. Belief in long-age evolution requires twisting of Scriptural references in Genesis 1, Exodus 20:11, Psalm 19:1, Romans 1:20, Romans 8:20-22, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 11:3, II Peter 3:3-6, etc.

Because it doesn't match with Scripture, evolution is bad theology. If evolution is true, then death preceded sin and cannot be its penalty, and therefore Christ's death did not pay that penalty. One's view of God is distorted when viewed through evolutionary glasses. The concept of billions of years of evolutionary meandering and extinction is inconsistent with God's omnipotence, omniscience, purposiveness, loving nature, and even His grace."

John D. Morris, Ph.D.

167 posted on 02/04/2004 10:35:58 AM PST by Southflanknorthpawsis
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To: js1138
Would normal people interpret the phrase "bite the dust" to mean ingest for nourishment?

I think not.

While lambasting those who take a passage literally you yourself have taken the passage literally. The languages involved are much to complex for your narrow view.
168 posted on 02/04/2004 10:39:36 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Testing. I can't hear myself. Is this thing on?)
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
Evolution is not theology. Its science.

"If evolution is true, then death preceded sin "

???????

"One's view of God is distorted when viewed through evolutionary glasses."

Hardly. God made the rules and Evolutionary rules like chemical and physical rules are the product of God.

"The concept of billions of years of evolutionary meandering and extinction is inconsistent with God's omnipotence, omniscience, purposiveness, loving nature, and even His grace"

This doesn't make sense. #1 the billions of years of evolutionary meandering and extinction DID occur - its a fact. The fact that it occurred has nothing to do with those items Dr. Morris, whoever he is, enumerated concerning God.


169 posted on 02/04/2004 10:43:37 AM PST by ZULU (GOD BLESS SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY!!!)
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To: CyberCowboy777
I take almost nothing in Genesis literally. Literalism is not my problem.
170 posted on 02/04/2004 10:44:21 AM PST by js1138
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To: ZULU
Genesis 2

4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground-- 7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Help me out here, Zulu. Is this God's idea of a trick? Do you believe that God would inspire the very first book of the Bible to be one of fairy tales or confusion?

Come on now. Is that sound Christian understanding?

171 posted on 02/04/2004 10:51:24 AM PST by Southflanknorthpawsis
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
John D. Morris, Ph.D., is the one with the problem. why he insists that evolution and/or geology has anything in the world to do with his particular theology is beyond me.
172 posted on 02/04/2004 10:52:54 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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To: protest1
"Do we crawl around on our belly licking dust? No I think not."

You quite obviously did not attend the same fraternity parties that I did in the 60's

Regards

173 posted on 02/04/2004 10:54:13 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
Jewish law, etc. became unnecessary with Jesus. But the events of that age are literal and applied to a time before

Including the 10 Commandments? What are the "laws" and what are the "suggestions" of the OT? Oh, to be a god fearing christian involves so much mental contortion!
174 posted on 02/04/2004 10:54:51 AM PST by whattajoke (Neutiquam erro.)
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To: js1138
Then you agree that the passage could simply mean that the serpent would be on the ground and by consequence would ingest dust.

The point was metaphoric and literal - the metaphor having substance in fact. Satan - the serpent in question - is not an actual serpent, but instead came as a serpent (less likely to scare Eve?).

I take almost everything in Genesis literally (within context)- because unlike my peers I am not arrogant about what I know and am aware that I cannot fathom what I do not know.

If anything science has shown that we really understand little.
175 posted on 02/04/2004 10:59:50 AM PST by CyberCowboy777 (Testing. I can't hear myself. Is this thing on?)
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
Either God created man or he didn't.

What's to say that God didn't create man through the process of evolution?

176 posted on 02/04/2004 10:59:54 AM PST by Modernman ("The details of my life are quite inconsequential...." - Dr. Evil)
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To: Southflanknorthpawsis
Because it doesn't match with Scripture, evolution is bad theology.

That statement, in a nutshell, is why I could never be a fundamentalist. If reality does not conform to a literal reading of the Bible, then I have to conclude that literal reading of the Bible is wrong. No rational way around it.

177 posted on 02/04/2004 11:02:44 AM PST by Modernman ("The details of my life are quite inconsequential...." - Dr. Evil)
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To: whattajoke
I am always amazed at the depth of anger in you antiGod types. If it's all so silly, why do you care so passionately? It's amusing.
178 posted on 02/04/2004 11:04:21 AM PST by Southflanknorthpawsis
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To: CyberCowboy777
Then you agree that the passage could simply mean that the serpent would be on the ground and by consequence would ingest dust.

I find that interpretation perverse beyond imagination. It conveys no useful message, moral or otherwise. I assume that forcing another creature to eat dirt is a rather old form of punishment and humiliation -- literally and figuratively. But think about this: the serpent in the garden might be interpreted as a literal snake, implying that snakes have or had mystical powers. Or it might be interpreted as Satan disguised as a snake, in which case, real snakes have been unjustly punished for all these millennia.

179 posted on 02/04/2004 11:06:59 AM PST by js1138
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To: Modernman
What's to say that God didn't create man through the process of evolution?

The short answer is the Bible. See post #171 and tell me where there is any doubt.

180 posted on 02/04/2004 11:07:40 AM PST by Southflanknorthpawsis
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