A return to submissive wives?

Boston.com ^ | 2 February 2004 | Cathy Young

[shrinkermd]

QUITE A FEW people would probably rail against Laura Schlessinger, the radio pop psychologist known for her diatribes against abortion, working mothers, and gay rights, even if she said that you should be kind to animals and brush your teeth regularly. When "Dr. Laura" writes a book which pins most of the blame for modern marital problems on selfish, overly demanding women, that's bound to ruffle feathers.

[familyofman]

Another prime case of "do as I say, not as I do". If you need to live your life based on someone else's values/ideas - you've already lost.

[Mamzelle]

A truly submissive woman would not expect nor demand marriage. I know one of these--a totally compliant, dependent "mistress" of a rich guy. This is an interesting new social pattern. And you want to talk *compliant*--poor gal barely has a soul.

If you want to keep 'em down, better not marry 'em. Just support them, allow them to live in your home--they don't have a leg to stand on.

[SamAdams76]

Well I don't think most men want their wives to be "submissive." But certainly they don't want their wives to be carping shrews, scheming gold-diggers and selfish, materialistic "career-oriented" women either. Unfortunately these are the types of women that most "feminists" become.

I do not share your dire views on marriage. There are good women to be found (I was fortunate enough to find one for myself). But a man these days must be very wary of marriage. Marrying the wrong woman can destroy your life.

I would say that most of these undesireable women give plenty of warning signs during courtship that a man ought to be able to pick up on. For example, if your date scowls when you order a steak in a restaurant and launches into a diatribe on how unethical it is to eat animal flesh, well, there's your sign.

It's amazing how many men are lured in by these types of women, captivated by their good looks and physical beauty. Only after marriage do they reveal themselves as the witches that they are. I was fortunate to be born with a "shrew" detector. A shrew in a beautiful body doesn't fool me for a minute.

[G.Mason]

"Only the nutty and the romantically immature think about marrying in this day and age."

I was going to "rag" you, but anyone who has a photo of Christopher Hitchens on their web page, can't be that bad.

Besides, you may be of the quality that would bury me in linguistic abuse

[Destructor]

"...pins most of the blame for modern marital problems on selfish, overly demanding women..."

There is a lot of truth to that assessment. It's not the women themselves that are to blame. It's the Feminist ideology that has permeated society in the last 40+ years. This trend will probably take another 40 years to correct itself. In the meantime, the institution of marriage will continue to decline.

[labolarueda]

God bless Dr. Laura. I miss listening to her on the radio.

[KantianBurke]

I disagree. I think that the women that this society has produced are probably the most unsuitable for marriage. Men as well as women need to be taught by their elders the skills and temperments that make a good marriage. For the past 30 years precisely the opposite lessons of have been taught. End result? You have Paris Hiltons and Britney Spears alongside with the usual littany of angry feminists.

[Tax-chick]

I don't have any problem with women being polite to men, or with traditional family roles (obviously :-). However, I do have a problem with the blanket characterization of men being interested only in food and sex. Not to offend any man who's happy to be seen that way, but that is sub-human.

Maybe I'm just fortunate in my husband, but he's a much more interesting person than that! If Dr. Laura wants to encourage respect for men, she's not going to do it by reducing them to the level of toddlers or hound dogs.

[KantianBurke]

[RosieCotton]

For the past 30 years precisely the opposite lessons of have been taught. End result? You have Paris Hiltons and Britney Spears alongside with the usual littany of angry feminists.

That's true of some women. It's not true of all. There are also those of us who were brought up in very traditional families, with traditional values and the desire and ability to be good wives and mothers. Personally, what I want more than anything in this world is to be a stay at home mother with a husband who is truly the head of the household, and (hopefully) a bunch of kids who we homeschool. However, there are just as many men as there are women who are "unsuitable for marriage", or who in any case will have a very hard time adjusting to married life. It's hard to find good men, just as it's hard to find good women.

But I don't condemn the whole sex because of the bad apples.

[Toespi]

I am reading the book now and it is logical and sensible. How can one equate submissive with being respectful and caring? I have been married many years, I am a career woman and I wish I would have read this book years ago. Women have become self-indulged through our process of "emancipation" and it is time we take a closer look at our role in marriage.

[Xenalyte]

Hmmm . . . maybe I'm not submissive enough.

[labolarueda]

"No, I dont think she is a lesbian, I think that she is tired of dealing with stupid, self centered women who have been told that they alone hold up the universe by lesbian propaganda."

Amen to that. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[KantianBurke]

"There are also those of us who were brought up in very traditional families, with traditional values and the desire and ability to be good wives and mothers."

But the point I'm trying to make is that as time goes on there are fewer and fewer people that have been brought up in stable traditional families and thus imbued with values conducive to a successful marriage. With schools, MTV and modern feminism its become quite a herculean task. And then there's the legal element to it. As Sam rightfully pointed out, make a mistake and a man's life is ruined. Sorry but once again, matrimony in this age is for the immature romantic and the machoistic.

[labolarueda]

Your expert advice is needed here, sir.

[RosieCotton]

It's primarily traditional families that are having lots and lots of kids. I see a lot of hope for the future. ;-)

Marriage isn't a mistake...it's just harder to find someone these days. I won't marry until I find someone who is certainly right, but I refuse to give up on it.

It's not so doom and gloom as you make out!

[SamAdams76]

Yes, I agree that there are a lot of unsuitable women. My point was that there are still good women out there to be found. Only you probably aren't going to find them hanging around nightclubs or with the "dating" services. Let me just comment on the datings services. The women that place themselves with these services are very likely the demanding and overbearing women that men should stay away from. I mean, when a woman signs up for these services, they invariably state "demands" such as no smoking, no drinking, etc. These women aren't looking for a man. They are looking for some schmuck that they can dominate (and that schmuck better have a good job).

I feel bad for the good women who end up being spinsters because they don't dress like hookers and do the nightclub scene. Most happy couples I know didn't meet each other swigging jello shots in some nightclub. They met at a church function or through family friends. I met my wife by the latter method. My father and her father were in the Navy together so our two families knew each other growing up. So years before we even became romantically involved, I knew who she was and what she was like. So I felt comfortable with her right off the bat. And she felt comfortable with me because she knew if I did anything stupid on a date, her father and my father would kick my butt!

Even when I was young, I never went for the "slutty" types like Britney Spears (and they were around back in those days too). I always liked decent girls who dressed and acted properly and would never think of having sex before marriage (or at least before engagement to marriage). I figured a girl who would save herself for marriage would stay faithful to the marriage once it began. Nearly 20 years later, I can happily say that I figured right.

[Theo]

Rule #1 -- define terms. What does "submission" and "submissiveness" mean in this context? Does it mean that women should buckle under man's authoritarianism? Does it mean that women should lose their personalities and become door mats?

Or does it mean something else?

[PLK]

The feminist movement is facing a backlash and the feminazi types are totally irrelevant to the average woman. Their only causes at the moment are 3rd trimester abortions on demand, lesbian rights, and socialism - all of which makes them so extreme it's laughable.

My current crusade in our local school system is to abolish the stupid practice of allowing girls to wrestle or play football if they want to. Of course, this rarely occurs beyond middle school because the boys' development kicks in and the girls are outmuscled.

However, I have seen some very sad situations as a result of this. Boys are humiliated, it's nothing short of being bullied, IMO, because everyone knows there's a stigma and shame. Never mind the social meaning of all that, it doesn't matter to a 12-year old boy and he shouldn't have to pick up the tab on some feminazi's social engineering dreams.

Recently, a 9th grade boy in our school, on the way to a wrestling tournament, was forced to ask the bus driver to stop on the side of the road. His stomach was roiling and he had diarrhea. The coach (a friend of ours) knew immediately that the boy was not sick, but he knew he was going to be wrestling a girl at the tourney. It was just too much.

When I heard this story I was furious. It matches the fury I feel when I see a girl with one of those "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" tee shirts - and the impetus for a girl to wear the shirt is the same one that leads them to "go out" for wrestling.

As the mother of both boys and girls, I say that when the boys can "go out" for the girls volleyball team, then it is O.K. for the girls to wrestle and play football.

[Theo]

... there are a lot of unsuitable women ...

All women are sinners. And all men are sinners. I married a sinner just over a year ago. She married one too.

If we start with the premise that when you marry, you marry a sinner, then you can provide a context for gracious, God-honoring, enjoyable marriage.