Posted on 01/26/2004 5:37:55 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:32 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
President Bush's call for sending Americans back to the moon revives an old dream: the hope of turning our sister world into an inhabited, commercially active Grand Central station of the solar system, from whence rockets will cruise to the outer planets and perhaps beyond.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Correct.
2)The government shouldn't try to develop space because there is no way to make a profit.
Misunderstanding. Government doesn't know what to develop in space because it isn't guided by a profit motive, and cannot determine how to allocate resources outside of bureaucratic or political whim. These same problems of socialist calculation, absent the free market, plagued GOSPLAN and eventually convinced the Soviets to throw in the towel.
3)The Chinese, national security, national defense are all irrelevant.
No, I said if you want to sell it on that, then sell it on that. Tell the American taxpayer you want to put forts on the Moon to block the Chinese, Russians, Indians, or whomever else you are afraid will seize it first. Tell the Americans you want to build a gravity catapult to be able to bombard Earth from the Moon, or whatever it is you intend to do. Don't try to sell it as an 'economic stimulus' - unless you actually beleive the Soviet economic model deserves our emulation.
I have a proposal: When you get the government to stop taking my money to do something in space, I will be happy for the government to cease trying to make progress in space.
That's what I'm trying to do, that's why I'm explaining the pitfalls of government seizing and allocating resources for the purposes of 'economic stimulus' to you.
As it is, the taxes are going to be collected anyway, NASA is going to spend the money anyway, and you can only kill the program, not the funding.
Is this really what has become of the Republican party, or conservatism in general? Moore was right, the war against big government is over, big government won...
Do I strike you as someone in favor of that largesse too?
What I am telling you is that private enterprise won't move out because it knows there is no market. That leaves...government.
Tell the American taxpayer you want to put forts on the Moon to block the Chinese, Russians, Indians, or whomever else you are afraid will seize it first.
That only worked before because of the hysteria surrounding nuclear missiles. Now the public has forgotten that, or at least has it in their heads that nuclear war will never happen. Or even a war we could lose. Moore was right, the war against big government is over, big government won...
Hey, we have a republican president, congress and erstwhile conservatives in charge of the Supreme Court and the budget has grown more than it ever did under the democrats. Yeah, I would pretty much have to say that those of us who would like a pre-Roosevelt, pre-income tax government are definitely an endangered species.
We can't even get any traction on not adding a new entitlement, much less scaling back the existing ones to sane levels. In that environment I find it hard to begrudge NASA $15billion a year.
There is no market demand because your neighbors want to do something else with their money. Leave them alone!
Only government would be so dumb as to put the cart before the horse. The market will do this properly, and without squandering wealth in shovel fulls like the bureaucrats will.
Or even a war we could lose.
Well, with over a 1,000 nukes avaliable, what war would we lose that a moon base would win?
Yeah, I would pretty much have to say that those of us who would like a pre-Roosevelt, pre-income tax government are definitely an endangered species.
Don't expect me to turn into a commie just to get along.
We can't even get any traction on not adding a new entitlement, much less scaling back the existing ones to sane levels. In that environment I find it hard to begrudge NASA $15billion a year.
If you can't beat'em, join'em?
Well, I was keeping the thread on topic. I'd gladly take back every tax dollar from the above mentioned. I'm equal opportunity when it comes to repealing largesse.
Should they be left alone when they don't want to pay for roads, nuclear missiles, or the Louisiana purchase? I have said that this is a national security issue, you may or may not agree with that, but apparently the president thinks that way.
Well, with over a 1,000 nukes avaliable, what war would we lose that a moon base would win?
Any one where we weren't willing to use those nukes. Nukes are a peculiar weapon, you don't use them to win wars, you use them to prevent nuclear wars.
Don't expect me to turn into a commie just to get along.
That sort of over-the-top rhetoric just torpedoes your own credibility. For the state to do something private enterprise has no interest in or ability to do does not make communism, otherwise you could label every nation with a defense budget communist.
Other than the national security necessities, I doubt space spending will bear much fruit until NASA is given leadership with a vision for encouraging private industry. But that encouragement will likely take the form of a moon base (or workable space station) for private enterprise to service.
Roads are funded through tolls and gasoline taxes (although that might not be the best way), they can certainly be viewed as user fees.
Nuclear missiles are military implements, that the Constitution authorizes the government to appropriate and expend money on.
Is GWB calling for a Moon colony in order to claim the moon for the U.S. as sovereign territory? If he were to actually do that, my opinion might change, because it would at least guarantee some semblance of property rights to it, but to date I've heard nothing like that. Have you?
Any one where we weren't willing to use those nukes. Nukes are a peculiar weapon, you don't use them to win wars, you use them to prevent nuclear wars.
So we didn't use them to beat the Japanese? That's an interesting view of history.
That sort of over-the-top rhetoric just torpedoes your own credibility. For the state to do something private enterprise has no interest in or ability to do does not make communism, otherwise you could label every nation with a defense budget communist.
That was in response to your 'economic stimulus' arguments. Don't drop context and you want fall into these errors of understanding.
If we want private enterprise to take an interest in space development, we must establish private property rights in space, which also would dump the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty.
Or private people going to the moon and telling the UN, US, etc. to piss off.
No, and that is not what I said either. By national security, I mean that Bush is making sure that the Chinese don't hold cislunar space uncontested.
As far as the private property rights, that simply isn't an issue right now because no one is doing anything with the moon yet.
So we didn't use them to beat the Japanese? That's an interesting view of history.
Yes, when we had two and the rest of the world had none. Vastly different situation and silly of you to bring that up.
That was in response to your 'economic stimulus' arguments.
The state can provide subsidy to jump start an industry without being full blown communism. Are do you assert that the United States was communist when it subsidized the railroads?
Does that mean we're going to build moon forts and hold them at bay, or what?
As far as the private property rights, that simply isn't an issue right now because no one is doing anything with the moon yet.
Do you think they will, with no property rights? Who wants to haul back a freightload of Moon riches if they have to hand it over to the UN and 'share' it with every backwater despot on Earth?
Are do you assert that the United States was communist when it subsidized the railroads?
No, just that the railroad funding was a way for politicians to funnel taxpayer money to cronies for kickbacks. Ever heard of the Great Northern Railway? I'm sure the public school history books told you about the Union-Pacific, because it was the one wrapped up in political giveaways. Did they tell you how, being paid for the mile they gave no consideration to the state of their rail, and how and where they laid it? Did they talk about laying ties and rail on top of snow, just so they could claim the land around it, even if the thaw rendered it useless when it sank under it's own weight to the ground? No problem! Taxpayer funded subsidies to fix it! Railroads might have been one of the worst things to bring up, unless you meant to make my point - government can't be trusted to make good use of the resources, or even properly direct them.
........OR built the Panama Canal, the Interstate Highway, Apollo, TVA, Hoover Dam, etc. This new initiative is another infrastructure to strengthen the U.S. economy and our national security - science gets a back seat but reaps the rewards of getting there.
Consider the situation if the Chinese have unfettered access to the moon while we have none. What might they do?
Besides which, what will it do to US credibility on the world stage if the Chinese own space? They will increasingly be seen as the big kid on the block to whom the world defers, and we will become like France: A nice place to visit, but a nation that no one respects on a basic level.
Do you think they will, with no property rights?
Oh it's an obstacle alright, just not the obstacle. Of course, the minute the Chinese land on the moon, that treaty will be worth less than used toilet paper. They will claim what they want to claim until someone knocks them off the hill, and that will not happen soon.
Railroads might have been one of the worst things to bring up, unless you meant to make my point - government can't be trusted to make good use of the resources, or even properly direct them.
The waste in railroads probably can't touch in dollar figures the amount wasted in space. But just as the nation needed railroads in spite of the corruption and waste subsidizing them produced, we are going to need space infrastructure.
Unless deferring to the Chinese is ok with you.
You're saying a lot, but none it applies to my question. Do you want the U.S. to build moon forts or orbital forts, or what? We can go into space. We can design military rockets to attack targets in space. Why would China 'own' space just because they can finally get into it?
They will claim what they want to claim until someone knocks them off the hill, and that will not happen soon.
Are you claiming we should claim it until someone knocks us off? Just come out and say it if you are, no harm done.
The waste in railroads probably can't touch in dollar figures the amount wasted in space. But just as the nation needed railroads in spite of the corruption and waste subsidizing them produced, we are going to need space infrastructure.
And, as with the Great Northern Railway, private enterprise can provide them when there is a market demand for them, without politicians reaching into our pockets to enrich themselves and their cronies.
Unless deferring to the Chinese is ok with you.
Deferring to them about what? Do they ask us for permission to go into space? To go to the moon?
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