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To: Swordmaker; aruanan; thedilg; Bloody Sam Roberts; Alamo-Girl; Graymatter; null and void; ...
You better learn which word the word BOUND came from AND Napkin before you make more errors.

44 And <2532> he that was dead <2348> (5761) came forth <1831> (5627), bound <1210> (5772) hand <5495> and <2532> foot <4228> with graveclothes <2750>: and <2532> his <846> face <3799> was bound about <4019> (5718) with a napkin <4676>. Jesus <2424> saith <3004> (5719) unto them <846>, Loose <3089> (5657) him <846>, and <2532> let him <863> (5628) go <5217> (5721).

4019 peridew perideo per-ee-deh'-o

from 4012 and 1210;; v

AV - bind about 1; 1

1) to bind around, tie over

4676 soudarion soudarion soo-dar'-ee-on

of Latin origin;; n n

AV - napkin 3, handkerchief 1; 4

1) a handkerchief
2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse

What is a SWATHING??

SWATHING
WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] cloth coverings wrapped around something (as a wound or a baby)

See Also: covering

COVERING
Pronunciation: 'kuvuring

Matching Terms: covering fire, covering letter, covering material, Covering of the eyes

WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] the work of applying something; "the doctor prescribed a topical application of iodine"; "a complete bleach requires several applications"; "the surface was ready for a coating of paint";
[n] the act of protecting something by covering it
[n] the act of concealing the existence of something by obstructing the view of it; "the cover concealed their guns from enemy aircraft"
[n] an artifact that cover something else (usually to protect or shelter or conceal it)
[n] a natural object that covers or envelops; "under a covering of dust"; "the fox was flushed from its cover" [adj] actively protective; "provided covering fire for the platoon that was moving up"
[adj] above or covering a wide area; "the covering darkness"; "shadow of the overhanging crag"; "the dark overspreading clouds"

Synonyms: application, broad, coating, cover, cover, masking, natural covering, overhanging, overspreading, protective, screening, shielding, wide

See Also: anointing, anointment, apparel, artefact, article of clothing, artifact, artificial skin, bark, blanket, body covering, bootleg, bubble, canopy, case, casing, chafing gear, cloak, cloth covering, clothes, clothing, coat, coating, concealing, concealment, concealment, cover, cover plate, covert, crust, daubing, dressing, earmuff, eggshell, encrustation, envelope, exhaust hood, facing, fig leaf, finger, flap, floor covering, floorcover, floral envelope, folder, foliation, footgear, footwear, fumigation, galvanisation, galvanization, grooming, hiding, hood, imbrication, incrustation, indusium, instep, integument, lapping, lining, lubrication, mantle, manual labor, manual labour, mask, mercy seat, natural object, overlapping, paddlebox, painting, paperhanging, papering, pavage, paving, perianth, pericarp, peridium, planking, plastering, plating, protection, protection, protective cover, protective covering, sac, scale, screen, scumble, seed vessel, sheath, shell, slough, snowcap, spraying, swathing, test, theca, thumb, tiling, tinning, tin-plating, toe, top, upholstery, vesture, vesture, waxing, wear, wearing apparel, wrap, wrapper, wrapping

This is crystal Clear!

Lazarus' Face was BOUND AROUND with a covering! Not a cord, not a tiedown for the Jaw, but a FULL FACE COVERING!!

That was for Lazarus. Let's see what it says for Jesus!

7 And <2532> the napkin <4676>, that <3739> was <2258> (5713) about <1909> his <846> head <2776>, not <3756> lying <2749> (5740) with <3326> the linen clothes <3608>, but <235> wrapped together <1794> (5772) in <1519> a place <5117> by itself <1520> <5565>.

4676 soudarion soudarion soo-dar'-ee-on

of Latin origin;; n n

AV - napkin 3, handkerchief 1; 4

1) a handkerchief
2) a cloth for wiping perspiration from the face and for cleaning the nose and also used in swathing the head of a corpse

So, it is the same word for Jesus!

And what is that Word? It does NOT translate into a string, or band to be used to wrap someone's jaw shut!!

Do you see it now?

Always refer to the Bible when talking about the Bible! You will see that so many things are just not true when you actually look it up in the Bible!

That BINDING, you called it, the cord, or tie down for the Jaw, is NOT found in the original Greek, it is a Kerchief, a NAPKIN, not a cord, not a string, not a band at all. It is a FULL FACE COVERING. And you see it for yourself now.

What day was Jesus Crucified?

Just a sidebar article.

78 posted on 01/23/2004 3:20:49 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon; Swordmaker; thedilg; Bloody Sam Roberts; Alamo-Girl; Graymatter; null and void
Do you see it now?

I've seen it from the beginning, but--the vast amount of text you've cut and pasted notwithstanding--it's clear that you still have not. You have posted nothing that contradicts or even weakens my earlier observation that there was nothing in the texts you had earlier cited that supported your conclusion that the cloth that was wrapped around the head necessarily had to be underneath the single piece of cloth that was the shroud.

Furthermore, in your attempt to compare the burial of Jesus with that of Lazarus, you appear to have overlooked the most fundamental difference: the burial of Lazarus was done all in good time of a beloved brother. The burial of Jesus, and the process of getting his body prepped for burial, was a hasty and uncompleted affair, specifically mentioned as such, and done to beat the sundown and appearance of the second star that would mark the beginning of Sabbath.
79 posted on 01/23/2004 3:49:24 PM PST by aruanan
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To: RaceBannon
RACE, you are showing me NOTHING new. You've looked up the words. Good for you! Most Bibles were written in Latin, not in their original GREEK. The original translators did not find a comparable Latin word for the Greek "othonia" (linen cloths), nor were they aware of Jewish burial customs when they did the translations.

"And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."

The word that is really causing this entire mis-understanding is "about" which is used in many Bible translations and its confabulation together with the phrase "wrapped up found in the following phrase."

Let's look at the anglicized (English letters rather than Greek) verison of the latin:

"kai to soudarion, ho ên epi tês kephalês autou, ou meta tôn othoniôn keimenon alla chôris entetuligmenon eis hena topon."

"Epi" the preposition that is used in the original Greek text does NOT MEAN "about" its most common definition is "on."

Strong's "Greek Dictionary" defines "epi" as follows:

"epi
ep-ee'
a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively)."

The only usage of the word "entetuligmenon" meaning "wrapped up" in the passage is when it is used to describe the state of the soudarion when it was found apart from the other othonia. The word used also implies "twisted around itself" in the Greek as opposed to the Greek word "enetulixen" which is used when refering to "wrapping around something" which is used in Matt. 27:59 and Luke 25:53 where that word was used to describe how the linens were placed on the body.

Why would a resurrected Christ take the time to take the cloth that according to you was "swathed" about his head and "twist it up," as the Greek word implies, to leave it aside? Perhaps because it was already twisted to make a bandage type binding that was on his head? And why would a "twisted around itself" "napkin" be so twisted? Perhaps to make a binding. Why would a head binding be necessary? Because after Rigor Mortis passes (a few hours to a few days after death) the jaw fall under the effects of gravity and the mouth would gape open, and a binding holding the jaw closed would prevent this.

This has been investigated MANY times by people more expert in this area than you OR I... and it has come down to being one of the binding cloths and not a secondary Shroud over the face. The binding cloths have been found AND described on other corpses of similar vintage... but no swaddling, swathing, or covering of the head other than a complete Shroud if one is available has been reported.

Always refer to the Bible when talking about the Bible! You will see that so many things are just not true when you actually look it up in the Bible! That BINDING, you called it, the cord, or tie down for the Jaw, is NOT found in the original Greek, it is a Kerchief, a NAPKIN, not a cord, not a string, not a band at all. It is a FULL FACE COVERING. And you see it for yourself now.

Which Bible is it that I should refer to, Race? Your King James Version? How about the Amplified Bible which uses English words (or when necessary alternatives) as close to the original Greek as possible? It translates the passage as:

7But the burial napkin (kerchief) which had been around Jesus' head, was not lying with the other linen cloths, but was [still] [1] rolled up (wrapped round and round) in a place by itself.

Or should I go back to the original Greek texts and try and learn the usages of the words as they were used in the time in which they were written by researching how the words were used in other contemporaneous documents? Just consider the English Language's sometimes oblique references or outright reversals of meaning in the last Century... "That's bad!" means its good, "fantastic" means "great" instead of "composed of fantasy," and "are you're sh*tting me?" means "Are you not telling me the truth." Colloquial language can lead to many misunderstandings.

The people who prepared bodies for burial were practical as well as observing tradition. They used rolled up pieces of cloth to make the bindings that tied the mouth closed, the hands together, and the feet. This has been established by other research that does not appear in your Bible.

They DID NOT USE "cords, strings, or bands" for this purpose, Race. The original books of the Bible did not use the WORDS you bandy about so liberally... they were written in GREEK. They did not use "kerchief" or "napkin" or "about" or even "on" or "wrapped around" which are all words for DIFFERENT things in other languages. They used Greek.

80 posted on 01/23/2004 10:36:29 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tagline shut down for renovations and repairs. Re-open June of 2001.)
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