Posted on 01/10/2004 8:05:30 AM PST by PatrickHenry
GAINESVILLE, Fla. --- Researchers at the University of Florida say they have shown that minerals were key to some of the initial processes that formed life on Earth. Specifically, a borax-containing mineral known as colemanite helps convert organic molecules found in interstellar dust clouds into a sugar, known as ribose, central to the genetic material called RNA. This announcement provides a key step toward solving the 3-billion-year-old mystery of how life on Earth began. The findings will appear in Friday's issue of the journal Science. Steven Benner, Alonso Ricardo, Matthew Carrigan and Alison Olcott built on a famous experiment done 50 years earlier by Stanley Miller that is found in many textbooks. In 1953, Miller showed that electric sparks in a primitive atmosphere made amino acids, the building blocks of proteins.
Miller's experiment failed to identify sugars that were needed for genetic material, however. "The sugar ribose can be formed from interstellar precursors under prebiotic conditions," said Benner, who led the research funded by NASA, the National Science Foundation and The Agouron Institute in Pasadena, Calif. "But ribose is too unstable to survive under Miller's conditions." Ribose, like most sugars, turns into tar if not handled carefully. "It is like baking a cake too long," said Benner, a UF distinguished professor of chemistry and anatomy and cell biology. In 1995, Miller gave up trying to make ribose prebiotically, writing: "The first genetic material could not have contained ribose or other sugars because of their instability."
Benner, who also is a member of NASA's Astrobiology Institute, did the first experiments as an instructor at an international geobiology course last summer funded by the Agouron Institute and held at the University of Southern California Wrigley Institute for Environmental Studies. "We asked two questions. First, what simple organic molecules might have been present on early Earth as starting materials to form ribose? Then, what might have been present on early Earth to capture ribose and keep it from burning up like overcooked cake?" Benner said.
To identify simple organic molecules that might be the starting materials, Benner turned to compounds known to exist in interstellar dust, such as formaldehyde, used to preserve tissue. "Formaldehyde may not seem to be a good starting point for the life that we know," he said. "But it is simple. With only one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms, there is a lot of formaldehyde to work with in the cosmos."
Benner and his team showed that formaldehyde, with other interstellar compounds, could form ribose and other sugars when treated in the presence of base materials such as lime, a material used to adjust the pH level of lawns, among other things. Lime was effective, but the ribose decomposed soon after it was formed.
Recognizing that ribose had a particular chemical structure that allowed it to bind to minerals containing the element boron, they turned to another substance called colemanite. "Colemanite is a mineral containing borate found in Death Valley," he said. "Without it, ribose turns into a brown tar. With it, ribose and other sugars emerge as clean products." Benner then showed similar reactions with other borate minerals, including ulexite and kernite, which is more commonly known as borax.
Benner and his team are the first researchers to succeed in making significant amounts of ribose under these early conditions.
Joseph Piccirilli, a biological chemist at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the University of Chicago, said Benner's work "has simplicity and brilliance."
"Organic chemists have long known that borate complexes with compounds like ribose," Piccirilli said, "and prebiotic scientists have long believed that minerals on the early Earth played an important role in the origin of life." Until now, "no one has put the two ideas together," he said.
"We are not claiming that this is how life started," Benner stressed. "We are saying that we have demonstrated a recipe to make a key part of life without any biochemical machinery. The more recipes of this type that can be found, the more clues we have about how life could have actually gotten started on the primitive Earth."
While best classified as basic science, the work has practical biological and medical value. "Curiously, thinking about how life originated and what form it might take on other planets helps us design new tools for disease diagnostics and therapy," Benner said. Diagnostic tools enabled by Benner's work seeking alternative life forms are used today in the clinic to monitor the load of the viruses that cause AIDS and hepatitis C.
The work also complements other research Benner is conducting that focuses on ancient forms of life on Earth. In a September report in Nature, Benner and his collaborators deduced the structure of a protein found in a bacterium that lived several billion years ago and resurrected the ancient protein. By studying it in the laboratory, the group inferred the ancient bacteria lived in a hot spring at about 150 degrees Fahrenheit.
With the prebiotic experiments, Benner said, "we are working forward in time, from the origin of the planet to the first life. With experiments with ancient proteins, we work backwards in time, from the modern world to the most primitive of bacteria." The group's goal, he said, is to have the two meet in the middle.
Are you saying my blind man comparison is childish?
Was God childish when He told Exekiel the following?
Ezekiel 33:8 - When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Or was God teaching Exekiel what it means to love others? I think God's teaching Exekiel that love demands action. Love doesn't allow a man to leave other's in harms way. Live and let die is not an option. But whether to die is your choice, not mine, I can only warn.
That's probably true to an extent. People find contradictions in Christianity, that really aren't there. They pull things out of context.
But I think there are Big Obvious contradictions in many of the worlds religions.
What really separates Christianity from almost all of the world's religions. Is that most religions teach that if you are good enough, if your balance of good versus bad is high enough, then you will go to heaven.
Christianity on the otherhand, teaches that any sin makes you unworthy to stand before a perfect holy God who knows no sin. Your only options are to be perfect or to be forgiven. (And since God knows the future and has already announced that none rae perfect, I wouldn't count on doing the first option,)
There is no good that you can do that makes up for having done evil. Because any good that you can do, is only what you should have done in the first place.
Well obviously we both can't be right. Either my seeing the cliff is a product of my conceit or your failure to see it is a product of yours. One of us is clearly wrong.
...but there are a great number of other people telling me to adjust my path in various different directions to avoid various other cliffs -- none of which appear to be any more real than the one to which you hold a claim.
There are and that's unfortunate. I would suggest you get a long stick and probe, there might just be a cliff there.
My wife tends to give me directions that are "Turn here" which is no help because it doesn't say which way. My kids tell me "Turn left", but they don't know left from right yet. Sometimes my kids tell me to turn and they don't even know where we are supposed to be going.
Life is a lot like that.
However, there are ways to discern which voices to listen to. I can tell you some things that may help.
God said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. " Now this requires giving God the benefit of the doubt enough to ask Him. But it's really an excellent start. This I know, God desires to give man good things. If you ask Him for wisdom, it might take Him a while to teach you, but He is not likely to leave that request unanswered.
1 Corinthians 3:2 - I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. Sometimes you have to act on what God has already shown you, before He can teach you more. You have to crawl before you walk. You have to learn to add, before you can multiply.
He can give you wisdom, you still have to choose whether to act on it.
I am saying that your entire performance in this thread is childish. You have apparently read one book (a good one, but limited in its coverage of science), dated one woman (who may be very nice indeed), and now you are a prime example of what I said back in post 114 (which I posted as a gentle admonition to you), and which I repeat here for emphasis:
I've remarked before that there is a nearly-universal conceit among men. Each imagines that he is entirely competent to compete with experts in: (1) theology; (2) philosophy; (3) cosmology; (4) military strategy; (5) political tactics; and (6) love-making.There are some very knowlegable people in this thread who have been participating in these evolution threads for years. They know what you're saying; it's all been said before, hundreds of times in hundreds of threads. To them, it is obvious that you know nothing of biology (other than the misinformation found at creationist websites and perhaps in some Jack Chick comics), yet you presume to have worthwhile criticisms. You know nothing of philosophy (a rich intellectual discipline which has an academic tradition extending back for twenty-four centuries), yet you presume to reclassify and redefine its well-defined topics. When someone politely attempts to assist you by pointing out some rather obvious gaps in your understanding, you resort to the childishness of calling him a "blind man walking towards a cliff."
If you resist acquiring additional information, that is your choice. No one wants to interfere with your happiness -- notwithstanding that you might be even happier if you were better informed. You are free to stay as you are. It's your choice. But that choice severely limits your capacity to play these intellectual games at a non-trivial level. As I said earlier, go in peace.
Actually he was asked at least three times. His answers are very instructive.
In Mathew 19:16 He was asked how to have eternal life by a rich man, and Jesus responded "Keep the commandments". The man asked which. Jesus rattled off about 5. The man said "I've kept all of these from my youth." (Understand, this was a really GOOD guy by earthly standards). But then Jesus responds, "If you would be perfect, go and sell that thou hast...". What Jesus did was he led the man up to a point that Jesus could show the man his sin. His sin was that he held riches in greater esteem than God.
Now look at the reaction from His disciples that follows..."Who then can be saved?" ... They were astounded, if this man who had kept so many of the commandments couldn't be saved, who could? Jesus said, "With man it's impossible, with God it's possible." Man cannot save himself, but God can save man.
Mathew 19:21 (also in Mark 10) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
In Luke 10:25, Jesus was asked by a Lawyer how to have eternal life. Jesus asked him what is written in the law?
Luke 10:27 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
The man eloquently summarizes the law and Jesus agrees. "Do this and you shall live." The problem is that none of us do this. What Jesus does with this question, is to say, "You know what is right, go and do it!" Again Jesus shows the man his sin. Watch what happens in the next verse.
Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? Which sets Jesus up for the story of the good Samaritan, which afterwards he tells the man to go and do likewise.
The third time he is asked in John 3, it's by Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish Sanhedriin, the ruling council. And Jesus says, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. " Nicodemus responds with "What?!? How can you be born again?" Jesus response, "You are a master of Israel and you don't understand this?" Nicodemus should have understood it. There was enough in the Old Testament, that Nicodemus should have realized what Jesus was saying.
Nevertheless, Jesus goes on and explains it fully with the following:
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
So understand, what the Lord requires of us is really pretty simple: Love God, love others. The law was given to help us understand better what it is to love God and to love our fellow man. Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Romans 13:8 - Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
But the problem is that none of us do it. Thus we all have a sin problem that needs to be dealt with. That's why scripture says repeated that there are none that are righteous except for Jesus.
But then Scripture goes on to talk about the righteous. But what it says is that "God is our righteousness", "The Lord has become our salvation", "You alone are my salvation", "Abraham beleived God and it was counted unto him for righteousness". We have the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
In other words, keeping the law is good. It is what God requires. But what happens when we fail?
That grace, that undeserved unmerited grace, that awesome grace is what frees us. The Christian who understands this no longer fears sin. I can't screw up bad enough that Jesus will reject me. My ticket is punched. My salvation is assured. As Paul said, "Nothing in life nor death... can separate me from the love of God."
I don't want to sin because I love God, because He loves me. I want to obey Him. But if I fail, Jesus already paid for it, some 2000 years ago and sin will not be imputed unto me. That's freedom!!!!
Here are the problems I see with claiming this study 'proves' that life came from non-life all by itself.
There was an intelligence involved in gathering the materials together into a presumed 'privitive' atmosphere. In other words, all the right materials were gathered and put in a closed, controlled environment. This does more to prove that an intelligence had to be involved in creating life than to prove that one was not necessary.
I'm curious as to where Dr. Miller thinks 'electrical sparks' came from in a primoridal environment. Lightening? Sorry, but the voltage in lightening is MUCH more powerful than the sparks Dr. Miller applied to his recipe for primordial soup.
Show me the chaotic environment that generates primordial soup that then spontaneously generates life, then I'll be impressed.
Did I say that? Of course Jesus intends for our faith to result in actions towards others. It's what He desired all along. If we did that, we wouldn't need Jesus.
But if you think that your actions towards others are good enough to earn you righteousness, you should think again. Because God says none are righteous. Our righteousness comes from the imputation of Jesus's righteousness.
Actually that same passage address this in the words of Jesus.
Math 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus affirms that none are righteous except God. Note also Jesus didn't deny being good, he effectively challenged the man to either accept Him as God or quit calling Him good. If none are righteous, how then do we become righteous? what does John 3 say?
Your objection applies to all man-made experiments, which will always lead you to the conclusion that no matter what we do in the lab proves -- in your words -- "that an intelligence had to be involved in creating" [presumably] the world.
Show me the chaotic environment that generates primordial soup that then spontaneously generates life, then I'll be impressed.
No, you won't be impressed. To you, such a demonstration by man would only prove "that an intelligence had to be involved in creating" the world.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law James 3:17 - But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
If you aren't every one of these traits 100% pure all the time, then you have sin in your life. You are failing to love God and others and you should. And even if you do, but you have failed to do them in the past, then you still have unforgiven sin in your life, unless you accept Jesus.
Of course Jesus expects your faith to result in these things. But righteousness comes either from being Holy or being forgiven.
Christians are forgiven. They do not have to do works to earn their salvation. They already have it. But as Paul said, "Should we sin that Grace should abound? Heaven forbid!"
The proper response to being wash free of sin and not having it imputed to you anymore is to go out and do what's right, or at least try. Not just to wallow in sin because you are forgiven. However if you wallow, grace will abound. Chastisement will too.
I presumed you'd know that 'chaotic environment' meant that no human intelligence had been involved in selecting or manipulating the elements to go into it. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
And yes, if you were to show me life occurring spontaneously in such an environment, I would be impressed.
I presumed you'd know that 'chaotic environment' meant that no human intelligence had been involved in selecting or manipulating the elements to go into it. Perhaps I should have been clearer.
And yes, if you were to show me life occurring spontaneously in such an environment, I would be impressed.
I'd be impressed too. However it could not change my knowledge that God is, or my belief that the Bible is His word and accurately if however brief, records the creation of earth and life on this planet.
If only Mr. Henry would be so good as to invent time travel so we could all travel back and marvel at creation or evolution as the case may be. And see for ourselves how long it took life to form. And if such an experiment didn't leave evolutionary theories in threads, then I would start asking God why He never corrected the belief that Genesis was correct.
In the meantime the evidence for species to species transition evolution is practically non-existent. The dating methods are dubious. And the certainty with which evolutionistic speculation is foisted on us as facts will rightly be greeted with skepticism.
Remember when TV had real stories that you could watch with your kids?
TV has DEVOLVED.
Don't sweat not being able to answer. Biologists don't always agree on this, either. However, we know the building blocks of life do occur naturally and are readily abundant in interstellar dust clouds of all places. Indeed, prototypical cell membrane-like structures have also been discovered in similar environments, formed naturally and without intervention by living entities.
HOLY COW!!!
But then, maybe the Muslims are right.
HOLY FLYING TERRORIST!!!
The Koran tells the Jews and the Christians to search their own scriptures to see if the Muslims are right. Both the Jews and the Christians can easily and categorically rule out Mohammed being a true prophet of God based on our scriptures.
So what you're saying is that I have no way of knowing whether or not you're pointing me in the right direction, is that it?
No, I'm acknowledging that there are a lot of voices telling you which way to go. Only one answer is right. There are ways of knowing what is the right course. If there was no way to know, how could you possibly be held accountable?
What does your conscience tell you about right and wrong, good and evil? Is there such a thing as right and wrong and if so, why?
This, of course, is assuming that the God of which you speak exists and is of the nature that you claim. The problem here is that you're asking me to assume that you're correct in the first place. It's circular reasoning.
If I gave you a winning lottery ticket, you'd have to assume that it might be legit in order to be motivated to even check it out. And in this day of scams, it very possible someone wouldn't even bother to check. So I understand your problem. I'm just one more guy on the intenet saying "You've won, click here for details."
Yeah, it's a little circular. I'm asking for enough faith in God from you to get you to ask Him to give you wisdom to discern the truth, to see the evidence for His existence. It's not much. It is the equivalent of a telephone call or knocking on a door and saying "Anybody there?".
You've spend far more effort discussing this with me than the one request I want you to make to God. He after all is in a far better position to prove Himself, than I will ever be.
In fact, if you ask Him to give you wisdom to see the evidence of His existence, and He doesn't, you might actually have a defense on judgement day. But He will, if He hasn't already. And when He does give you that wisdom, it's still going to be up to you to act on it. But you are certainly no worse off for the asking.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.