W's Live Speech Thread

Fox News | 1-7-04 | my favorite headache

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

Drop dead.

Gracious opening line. BTW, ad hominum attacks ususally mean lack of argument and nothing of interest to follow. But I will see. Hmmmm.....What have we here....

I read Wealth of Nations twice.

But did you understand it? The concept of supply and demand vs prices is the key argument Adams raises. You missed that? Did you read W-O-N in college while drinking heavily?

Illegals do not depress wages....Wages are neither depressed nor inflated. They just are what the market says they should be. In order for somthing to be depressed it has to have some arbitrary zero from which its depressed.

This is nonsense. If the supply of labor increases, the price of labor (wages) declines (assuming constant demand).

Who put you in charge of what is right and fair? I got a clue for you too....Whatever you pay for somthing is exactley what it is worth at that moment in time. If you bought MSFT at 10 bucks was its price depressed when you bought it? If you bought MSFT at 50 bucks was its price inflated? Of course not...it was worth exactley what you paid for it. Figure it out...Let me know when you hire a union laborer for 40 bucks an hour to dig up your bushes at your home. Until then you live in denial, hypocrisy or both.

There you go again. Bascic Economics isn't about what is fair and right, it is a law of socio-economic nature, like physics. You seem to sort of get it, but not entirely. I recommend further study.

Your arguement is like blaming the candy store for your toothache...that may make sense to you...but its ridiculous top me.

Er, whatever.

[SUSSA]

You are wrong. When the government artificially manipulates the market, it causes increases or decreases in price.

When the government prints money and dumps it into the economy, prices raise artificially. It’s called inflation.

Artificially inflating the population causes a glut of labor and drives down wages. Ad to that mix when the new workers work for cash and the employer doesn’t have to pay taxes, unemployment insurance, etc., it drives wages down because employers who are competing with the criminal employers have to become criminals too or cut wages to a point where the legal worker isn’t costing more than the criminal worker.

When the criminal aliens get amnesty and their employers have to pay taxes, etc., and the newly legal worker can leave for a higher paying job, the criminal employer will start looking for newly arrived illegal aliens to fill the jobs at the lower wages he paid before the amnesty.

Illegal aliens also decrease wages because they cost every family in the country around $1,900 in social services they use over and above all the taxes they pay (Lou Dobbs was talking about this just tonight) The increased taxes legal workers pay to provide services to the criminals effectively reduces their pay. It is money they earn but get no bennifit from.

This plan will also provide a major incentive for more people to become criminals and come here illegally. It will show them that we reward criminals.

Top all of this off with the part of Bush’s plan that will pay Social Security to Mexicans who worked here legally or illegally and the cost becomes even bigger. The Social Security system will be paying out more than it takes in in about 12 years if we don’t pay Social Security to Mexicans. When Bush gets that passed the system will be broke in about 8 years.

At that point, the government will have to raise Social Security taxes to about 35% of gross to pay its obligation. If you don’t think that will impact wages you are not rational.

[texastoo]

When we don't enforce the laws already on our books, who is going to enforce new laws?

[antaresequity]

I will give you another example as a case history:

I used to go out of my way trying to hire neighborhood kids (17-19) year olds. Big strapping kids too.

On one occassion three of them came looking for work, and I obliged them. I told them I only needed two guys and had a days worth of work to try them out. They complained that they all wanted to work together...that they were some kind of team or somthing. Right then and there I knew they would not cut it. I gave em a crack anyway.

It was a Thursday, so I told them to be ready to work on Saturday and Sunday on one of my sites; new home in Mill Valley California.

The job was to hump a lumber drop up a dirt driveway to the site, and then to hump the lumber up two stories through windows openings and to stack the lumber for cutting. It was the roof rafter package and the sheeting for the roof. The lumber was two units of green 20 foot 2 x 12 and two units of 8' 1/2 cdx plywood.

In addition to humping the lumber, they were shown how to crown the sticks and mark them properly. I told them I expected the lumber to be all moved in one day, and then on Sunday they could scrap out the site to the debris box at the bottom of the drive. I told them with three guys that should take about 4-5 hours.

I knew how long it should take, and I knew what it was worth. Despite that I let them work as a threesome despite the fact it was going to cost a bit more money.

Now these strapping young lads showed up late on Saturday, and I stayed with them for about an hour making sure they were on a roll and then I left. I told them I would be back at 5 PM....7 hours later.

When I got back to the job, they had barely dented the pile. None of the wood they did pack and stack was crowned properly. Nothing was scraped out.

The next day I hired two hispanics. The hispanics on Sunday not only humped the sticks, but they scrapped out the job too in less than 8 hours. Both of the Hispanics were sitting under a tree at the bottom of the drive when I pulled up around 4 PM. They said they finished an hour early! I gladly paid these two guys 2 100 dollar cash bills...for 14 hours of work. Because my 150 dollar an hour crew could rock and roll on Monday...

I have repeated this excercise a thousand times. The white kids are pussies. I have tried countless times to bend over backwards for the local kids...they just don't cut it.

To top that off the three kids came looking for thier 'pay' on Sunday evening at my house. I gave each of them 10 bucks and they got all pissed off...I told them to go screw themselves...and later got a visit from one of their parents...I told that parent I didn't even want pay them anything, and they were lucky they got soda pop money.

Unless you have been on the front line like I have, dont tell me that all Americans wants these jobs...cause not only do they not want these jobs...they cant cut it.

In the end I hired one of the two hispanics full time. He got taxed and paid out just like anyother full timer. When he finally left my company two years later he was making about 22 bucks an hour, swung a hammer, and had a nice new truck. I personally went and sponsered this guy to the extent I could and he eventually won some sort of permanent residence status.

Last I heard from him was he was making 30 bucks plus an hour and was running work for another contractor.

Now go ahead and tell me about the scourge of aliens from south of the border, and how these guys work for substandard wages...

What a crock a crap.

[antaresequity]

Im not advocating amnesty...I am against it....

But the bottom line is that we need these people here. Figure out a way to make it legal.

Read the post above about the white kids humping lumber and you will understand where I come from....

[antaresequity]

Sorry for the attack....

Did you read W-O-N in college while drinking heavily?

I never graduated high-school;dropped out in my senior year. I was busy employing juniors and seniors when I was only a sophomore and eventually got kicked out for telling the principal to 'drop dead'...besides I was making awesome money and eventually built my company into a powerhouse construction firm...then sold it...to pursue computer programming and financial market stuff about three years ago...I am 43

I educated myself by reading books; tons of books. I have studied lots of math and physics, politics, economics, business, computers programming....stuff like that...

I wish I had gone on and graduated and then gone on to college...I know that now...I blew it...oh well I have a problem with authority...

[Fledermaus]

A totally selfish attitude.

Did you ever try calling the local employment office. I'll guarantee you they'd have sent over some strapping men, probably black, to do the job.

That's how I did it when I needed stuff moved when I needed office equipment moved.

The last time I moved from one home to another, I forgo the high cost of hiring movers, rented a huge U-haul, called the employment office and had 3 strapping Americans willing to work. I paid them well, fed them and drove them home.

It's not that hard to find legal Americans to work. And I don't mind hiring legal immigrants that are documented. But I make sure the companies I hire have documentation for their workers.

If they happen to be Hispanic, fine. But I don't see the need when I know I can find a large group of native born Amercians to do the work.

[SUSSA]

I run three crews right now remodeling houses I buy and rent or buy and resell. I don't have a Mexican in the bunch even though I could get criminals for about 25% less than I pay Americans.

Two of my guys were foremen for a national homebuilder who replaced them with criminals at just over half what they were making.

I don't hire anyone who can't speak English and who I can't call Social Security and verify that they are legal. My black crews will work as well as any crew I've seen.

That being said, I don't mind having legal immigrants here who come here the right way. I don’t like having criminals here and will not become part of the problem by hiring them.

[lainde]

bttt

[SUSSA]

Shelia Jackson Lee is on FOX gushing over Bush's amnisty for the criminals. She sounds like a Bushbot.

[ventana]

LOL! ouch. V's wife.

[Constitution Day]

Spot on, sir.

[CasearianDaoist]

O, I wish I had all the answers, believe me. I do think I know most of the questions.

I think that we need to reach a broad consensus as a nation (outside of the circle of the beltway elites, BTW)and then act on it. I think it can be done by enacting laws that make illegal immigration quite unattractive for both the immigrant and his "sponsor." Some one on FR posted a really simple but well thought out program of laws. I do not know where it is but I think it is on the live thread for yesterday's speech. I thought that it was a goos start - you will know it when you see it.

[CasearianDaoist]

It reminds me of the Haitians who were building their boats in anticipation of Clinton being elected. There was a joke going around New York at that time:

"Did you hear what Clinton said about Roe vs. Wade?"

"No!"

" He said 'I don't care how the Hatians get here.'"

All too true.

[Hostage]

I understand what you are saying but you have not seen the bigger picture. I'll get to that in a moment.

It is true that alot of American youth are spoiled and need a boxing about the ears over work ethics.

I also have construction projects where I use alot of Ukrainians and they are all legal. They don't speak English but they try to and they improve over time. They are the hardest workers I have ever seen. They are also very appreciative of America and they want their children to have a better life. I pay them far above minimum wage and they know it. In return they give alot of quality work and if they screw a job up they redo it the right way on their time and they volunteer this, I don't have to ask them.
Now the key thing is they are completely legal.

When you go hire an illegal border crosser, you are hiring a lawbreaker and behind that lawbreaker is a movement of lawbreakers that are jamming this country's social infrastructure. The costs far outweigh the benefits.

You may think that you save money on construction but you are causing government budgets to swell unnecessarily.

If you were made responsible for the number of times your illegal worker's extended family showed up at the local ER, or you had to show up in court for their traffic infractions or accidents or you had to pay for the food stamps their family members are receiving and so on, then...

your costs would quadruple.

So the bottomline is you are thieving from society by supporting lawbreakers.

Get right with the law and hire a ***legal*** immigrant.

[Texaggie79]

Now, they recruit illegals, pay them eight dollars an hour with no benefits.

They now produce the product more efficiently. It is the responsibility of the other workers to find higher skilled jobs if they want more pay.

[No.6]

IMO this all hangs on enforcement against employers who afterwards elect to employ illegals.

Which means this is much ado about nothing. It is ALREADY against the law to hire illegals. Arggggh!

I said: enforcement, not legal scribbles. A million laws unenforced mean nothing. Of course I get your point; why not just enforce in the first place.

Problem is I have yet to hear a workable plan to defend the border. Our own State Department can't smile on a plan to let Israel build a wall against overt terrorists; how far do you think a plan to do likewise to our own border to stop illegals would get? Short of taking over Mexico ourselves so as to shorten our southern border to a managable size, the border is too large, people are going to stream across.

This worker program lessens the pressure to go illegally by providing a legal method. IMO it must be balanced by reforms in services to illegals. I'm not a legal scholar, but it seems to me something like this provides an incentives for Governors of states bordering Mexico to deny welfare and other benefits to illegals, since there is a program for legal work in place. If those moves follow then the pressure is also lessened because the monetary incentive to cross illegally is reduced.

All in all I have not made up my mind to hate or to love this proposal. My political sense tells me I shouldn't bother as it'll not pass this year. If the political strateg(er)y is right, the House passes something the Senate Dems and Rinos can't stand, and what's left is no bill but "Democrats are against Hispanics" as a campaign issue.

[BrooklynGOP]

Employers are not some fat dudes in top hats with cigars trying to screw their workers out of every cent they can. <P. But the consumers are! If you put two same items next to each other and slap two different prices on them, guess which one the consumer will pick?

[BrooklynGOP]

How the HELL will we solve anything by forcing the consumer to pay more?

Exactly! Sure, we can pay our workers more by jacking the prices up, but its not really more if these same workers can buy less.

[Eva]

How can you say that they are honest about what they would do, when they flip flop every month on every issue? The Democrats play that old game, heads I win, tails the American people lose.