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Path led from science to faith: The design is apparent to many
Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 12/27/03 | Bob DeWaay

Posted on 12/26/2003 9:43:24 PM PST by rhema

I read with interest Gregory Korgeski's Dec. 13 counterpoint decrying creationism and fundamentalism. After learning that no "reputable" scientists endorse creationism, I learned that fundamentalists who take their sacred texts literally are dangerous to the well-being of society.

These arguments are self-serving in that they admit no evidence to the contrary. In Korgeski's thought, being a creationist makes you disreputable and being a fundamentalist makes you a likely menace to society.

I was raised in a church that taught that the Bible was mostly mythology, that there were no miracles, and that evolution was true. Seeing no need for religion, I left the church and took up the study of science.

As a chemical engineering student at Iowa State University I was required to study organic chemistry. I studied the complexity of molecules in the body that made life possible. That study convinced me that evolution was impossible and that life had to come from an intelligent designer.

The church led me away from belief in God and science led me to it. I became a Christian and began to study the Bible for myself. Now I am a "fundamentalist" preacher.

My fundamentalism means that as a Christian I am committed to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. These teachings are so rigorous that they show me my sins and failings. However, they offer forgiveness as a free gift of God's grace through what Christ did for me on the cross. But what about these "dangerous" fundamental teachings? Let me explain just a few of them to those who find us "fundamentalists" to be dangerous.

Jesus and his apostles taught us to not take revenge, but turn the other cheek when attacked (Matthew 5:39). Jesus taught his followers to pay their taxes (Matthew 22:17-21).

The apostle Paul taught all Christians to pray for their civil leaders, whoever they may be (1Timothy 2:1, 2). . . .

< snip >

Back to Korgeski's article -- I wonder, given the lack of any authoritative text, the lack of a supreme "law giver," and the lack of any rational explanation of how moral guidance "evolved" from random processes, how Korgeski can take it upon himself to give his readers moral guidance. At least we fundamentalists have a source of moral guidance outside of the fickle "self."

Bob DeWaay is pastor of Twin City Fellowship in Minneapolis.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: crevo; evolution; faith; religion; science; spiritualjourney
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To: Ichneumon; nmh
It doesn't take "a HUGE leap of 'faith'" to realize that evolution can create great complexity,

No, it only takes a stubborn will that refuses to consider all contrary evidence.

61 posted on 12/27/2003 11:33:12 AM PST by Dataman
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To: NMR Guy
Just as a point of reference, I have multiple degrees in chemistry, work for a large biotech, and I am wholly unconvinced by evolutionary theory. I am not the only one.

If evolution were true, exaggeration of the percentage that believe it shouldn't be necessary should it?

62 posted on 12/27/2003 11:35:37 AM PST by Dataman
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To: BibChr
Great clip!

New article, same old tired evo responses.

63 posted on 12/27/2003 11:37:53 AM PST by Dataman
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To: mansion
Of course it does, to a creationist! For were they to recognize the truth of evolution, they would (at least in their own mind) be acting in opposition of their own self-image, that is - a person of faith.

A fallacious statement. It is necessary to understand the meaning of the words in order to make sense. Evos use the word "faith" to mean "a substitute for fact," which is characteristically incorrect. If it were so, Christ's statement,

would not make any sense.

However, it is particularly hypocritical of evos to charge creationists with substituting "faith" for fact when indeed that is the central pillar of evolutionary thought:

Do not pretend that the origin of matter or the origin of life have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The naturalistic presuppositions necessary to darwinism are part of the same materialistic world view that is powerless to answer the basic questions of existence.
64 posted on 12/27/2003 11:54:56 AM PST by Dataman
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To: RaceBannon; weaponeer
An evolutionist needs a beginning, for an evolutionist is a human, while God is outside of our experience by nature.

Race is correct. Weaponeer's question attempts to confine a creationist's world view to the materialist's set of presuppositions. The materialist may well believe that matter and its motion are all there is but the materialist is not free to impose his presuppositions on his opponent's belief system. IOW, each is allowed to explain his own belief in origins in the context of his world view.

Therefore Race is certainly consistent in his belief that God does not need a beginning. While it seems to be true that anything that exists in this material universe needs a beginning (except when the materialists ponder the origin of matter), God, the Creator of the universe is beyond not only the creation itself but also of the laws which cause the creation to function. Materialism and its evolutionary child are at a distinct disadvantage.

65 posted on 12/27/2003 12:07:23 PM PST by Dataman
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To: Dataman
Oh. OK. That sure explains it.
I'll go away quietly now.
66 posted on 12/27/2003 12:30:02 PM PST by weaponeer
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To: Ahban
Those papers show how the rules of science change for evolution.

No they don't, and you fail to even attempt to demonstrate why you think they do.

The standard for evolutionary "proof" seems to be "if I can propose a method by which something conceptually MIGHT have happened, then you must believe that it DID happen, or else you are an ignorant, Bible-thumping fundamentalist looney."

The papers do not say that. Fantasize much?

This lasts until further experiment disproves the hypothesis, at which point they fail away and concoct a new hypothesis, which guys like yourself somehow seem certain of.

Whatever you say, chum. It might be amusing if you tried to provide an example, though.

That is not the standard for any other branch of science. You have to show how it happening, not merely construct an often untestable hypothesis of how it MIGHT have happened.

The relax, evolutionary science *does* do this -- including in the cited papers that you obviously blew off without reading.

Also, do you think you have ever committed a sin (I freely but shamefully confess that I sin dailey).

If by "sin" you mean a "transgression of divine law" (per Webster's), then no, because until all the world's religions can agree on a single set of "divine laws", I'm not convinced that there is such a thing. Until then they look a lot more like man-made constructs.

Have I done things that are wrong? Sure, who hasn't?

67 posted on 12/27/2003 6:34:33 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: aquawrench
You want some good science supporting creationism?

I found no articles there "supporting creationism", per se, they mostly deal with trying to find "weaknesses" in evolutionary science. The few that do attempt to support "design" head-on are just variations on the old "life looks unlikely, it must have been made" chestnut, which has never been terribly convincing (for several reasons, including lack of knowledge necessary to make a rigorous probability calculation, and the possibility of alternative explanations for unlikely things other than just "someone made it").

I do, however, give that website brownie points for rightly rejecting young-earth creationism and several other common creationist canards. They're a big step up from the typical "creation science" website.

68 posted on 12/27/2003 7:11:18 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: RaceBannon
evolution requires more faith to believe than Creation.

See my earlier post. It doesn't take "faith", it takes knowledge and understanding of natural processes and the mountains of evidence.

69 posted on 12/27/2003 7:12:09 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
OK, I admit I exaggerated for effect when I used the quotes. Its not a quote, but I still maintain there is a double standard.

In the example of the blood clotting, they merely speculate on how it might have happened. They do not take critters with simple immune systems and subject them to various environmental stresses to produce, after many generations, organisms with more complex systems. They don't take critters and zap the genes that make their immune system and then breed them until they get even a simple system from scratch. THOSE would be true rigourous tests of the hypothesis that an immune system can evolve.

If the papers do that, please point me in the right direction. I think the papers gave some reasons on why they think a certain path was followed, but that is not the same as demonstrating that the path is a travelled one.

A good example of things we have been beaten over the head with, only to later learn that the evos were mistaken, would be the failure of homology.

A more recent example would be function for what was previously considerd "junk DNA", including what is thought to be genetic material from endegenous retroviruses. If chimps and man have the same junk from retroviruses in their DNA then it supports the idea they came from a common ancester. If OTOH that segment of code is functional, then it could just be something that they both need because they have similiar body plans, diets, etc....

I don't see why all the world's religions should have to agree on the same set of divine laws for Ichneumon accept one faith as valid. I mean, did we wait for the whole U.N. to approve before we invaded Iraq? Some of those religions might be the "France" of faith. Ah well, it matters little now. Just know that if one faith is true, forgiveness is available by accepting how good God is, not how good one is being themself.
70 posted on 12/27/2003 7:16:49 PM PST by Ahban
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To: Ichneumon

You believe that nothing created something.

That, or you believe that hydrogen atoms created something.

Either way, you are the one exercising an insane faith.

Sorry to break it to you like that, but to believe that hydrogen atoms can create life if given enough time and chance, that is pure insanity. Not science.
71 posted on 12/27/2003 7:38:17 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: ikka
What do you have concerning the development of the Krebs cycle?

Ooh, glad you asked, now I have a good excuse to post this cool animation of the Krebs cycle:

To read up on the evolution of the Krebs cycle (also known as the citric acid cycle), a good starting point is:

The puzzle of the Krebs citric acid cycle: assembling the pieces of chemically feasible reactions, and opportunism in the design of metabolic pathways during evolution, Melendez-Hevia E, Waddell TG, Cascante M, J Mol Evol. 1996 Sep;43(3):293-303
A portion of the abstract:
Study of the evolutionary possibilities of each one-taking the available material to build new pathways-demonstrates that the emergence of the Krebs cycle has been a typical case of opportunism in molecular evolution. Our analysis proves, therefore, that the role of opportunism in evolution has converted a problem of several possible chemical solutions into a single-solution problem, with the actual Krebs cycle demonstrated to be the best possible chemical design. Our results also allow us to derive the rules under which metabolic pathways emerged during the origin of life.
From the body of the article:
In the evolution of the metabolism, the achievement of the fundamental steps of the Krebs cycle was not difficult at all. Almost all of its structure previously existed for very different purposes (anabolic), and cells had to add just one enzyme (succinyl-CoA synthetase for the transformation of succynol CoA into succinate) to convert a collection of different pathways into the central cyclic pathway of the metabolism. This is one of the most clear cases of opportunism we can find in evolution.


The Krebs cycle has been frequently quoted as a key problem in the evolution of living cells, hard to explain by Darwin's natural selection: How could natural selection explain the building of a complicated structure in toto, when the intermediate stages have no obvious fitness functionality? This looks, in principle, similar to the eye problem, as in 'What is the use of half an eye?' (see Dawkins 1986, 1994). However, our analysis demonstrates that this case is quite different. The eye evolved because the intermediary stages were also functional as eyes, and, thus the same target of fitness was operating during the complete evolution. In the Krebs cycle problem the intermediary stages were also useful, but for different purposes, and, therefore, its complete design was a very clear case of opportunism. The building of the eye was really a creative process in order to make a new thing specifically, but the Krebs cycle was built through the process that Jacob (1977) called 'evolution by molecular tinkering,' stating that evolution does not produce novelties from scratch: It works on what already exists. The most novel result of our analysis is seeing how, with minimal new material, evolution created the most important pathway of metabolism, achieving the best chemically possible design. In this case, a chemical engineer who was looking for the best design of the process could not have found a better design than the cycle which works in living cells.

Also see (link goes to full text):
A mitochondrial-like aconitase in the bacterium Bacteroides fragilis: Implications for the evolution of the mitochondrial Krebs cycle, Anthony D. Baughn and Michael H. Malamy
While on the subject, I can't resist providing a link to this nifty site I ran across while digging up the above links. It's a multi-page animated tutorial on cellular respiration (including the Kreb's cycle), and it's a great introduction to the whole subject. It also makes fascinating observations like, for example, the fact that our critical dependence upon oxygen, and our lungs, red blood cells, and all related systems, don't actually play any direct role in our cellular metabolism -- they exist solely in order to remove electrons from the mitochondrial electron transport system, a minor (but vital) sideshow in the actual core metabolic processes of the cell. We don't need oxygen for energy or metabolism, as many people presume, we just need it to keep the assembly line clear...

That same website has other cool biology tutorials, hit the "outline" link at the bottom to see an index.

Yet more reconstruction of the evolution of the Kreb's cycle:

The Molecular Anatomy of an Ancient Adaptive Event: Protein engineering identifies the structural basis of a 3.5 billion-year-old adaptation, Antony Dean, American Scientist, Volume: 86 Number: 1 Page: 26 DOI: 10.1511/1998.1.26
In short, the Krebs cycle arose as a relatively minor modification to pre-existing cellular biochemical processes which were being used for amino acid synthesis and early iron-based metabolism.

Since the next question will undoubtedly be, "where did the iron-based metabolism come from", next we will visit:

The universal ancestor was a thermophile or a hyperthermophile: tests and further evidence, Di Giulio M., J Theor Biol. 2003 Apr 7;221(3):425-36
...which is only one of the recent confirmations of this model of the origin of life as we know it:
On the origins of cells: a hypothesis for the evolutionary transitions from abiotic geochemistry to chemoautotrophic prokaryotes, and from prokaryotes to nucleated cells, William Martin and Michael J. Russell, Phil. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B, DOI 10.1098/rstb.2002.1183
A related observation is:
"The oldest of these proteins was ferredoxin, a biosynthesis enzyme that contains iron-sulfur clusters and that transfers electrons (hydrogen-atom equivalents). This protein he reconstructs as having a negatively-charged tail; this can stick to positively-charged objects like mineral surfaces with their metal ions -- which is consistent with the view of Gunter Wachtershauser that life originated from iron-sulfur-associated chemical reactions on mineral surfaces, and that the Krebs Cycle dates from this time. Note that the Krebs Cycle's members are all acids -- negatively-charged ions -- meaning that they can stick to mineral surfaces."
-- from this webforum discussion
In short, life most likely originated in iron monosulphide pockets around hydrothermal ocean vents.

Finally, since someone is bound to mention the creationists' favorite biochemist Behe, it seems appropriate here to point out one of Behe's many whoppers. In his book "Darwin's Black Box", he wrote:

"There has never been a meeting, or a book, or a paper on details of the evolution of complex biochemical systems."
"In effect, the theory of Darwinian molecular evolution has not published, and so it should perish"
What planet is *he* living on? There have been countless statements by biochemists expressing their bafflement at how Behe could make such a transparently false claim.

One web author points out that a simple MEDLINE search turns up *thousands* of such papers -- so what's Behe's excuse? But my main reason for bringing up this particular web page is that it's a really decent compilation of links to papers on various aspects of molecular evolution, and a good starting point for finding answers to the kind of question you pose. That page is Behe's empty box: alive and published -- Some published works on biochemical evolution.

72 posted on 12/27/2003 9:32:45 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: RaceBannon
No, to believe that something came from nothing all by itself

Straw man, that's not what "evolutionists" believe. Nice try.

requires more faith than to believe that God took nothing and made it something!

I see -- and where did God come from? He was just "always there", despite being more complex than the universe itself? Now *that* takes *faith*...

Sorry, evolutionists lose on fact, they lose on all of it.

Actually, you lose on the ability to have an accurate view of the actual issues.

73 posted on 12/27/2003 9:35:31 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: RaceBannon

Although I don't believe the Bible's a complete narrative, God saw to it we had enough there to show us the way.

Wonderful piece Race; is it yours? Saved for posterity, BTW ;^)


74 posted on 12/27/2003 10:03:33 PM PST by ForGod'sSake (ABCNNBCBS: An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.)
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To: nmh
They keep explaining that everything is a program that never had any requirement to have been written, even though they keep pursuing its increased and increasing complexity.
75 posted on 12/27/2003 10:13:32 PM PST by AmericanVictory (If Arnold is the governater, Howard is the governatter)
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To: ForGod'sSake
Cant take credit for it all, the first 1/3 is mine, but the rest is a mix of others and mine
76 posted on 12/28/2003 3:10:23 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: Ichneumon
No, to believe that something came from nothing all by itself
Straw man, that's not what "evolutionists" believe. Nice try.

Nice try. You guys dont have anything other than to believe that life ame from non life, from nothing. You lose again.

requires more faith than to believe that God took nothing and made it something!
I see -- and where did God come from? He was just "always there", despite being more complex than the universe itself? Now *that* takes *faith*...

No, you believing that people came from hydrogen gas just on normal observed physical principles is faith, yet you fail to see what you believe. That is insanity.

Sorry, evolutionists lose on fact, they lose on all of it.
Actually, you lose on the ability to have an accurate view of the actual issues

Actually, between the two of us, I have been the only one speaking the truth, and you show you dont know the actual issue. Nice try.

77 posted on 12/28/2003 3:14:21 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: RaceBannon; ForGod'sSake; DallasMike; M Kehoe
Real scientists founded modern science, and they were Creationists.

Oh, puh-leaze.... Even if true, so what? And if so, it's trivially true -- for lack of any naturalistic explanations, *everyone* was a creationist back then.

All that would show is that a belief in creation doesn't *necessarily* interfere with the ability of certain geniuses to recognize scientific principles when they discover them. And none of the scientists in the list you borrowed from endless creationist pamphlets made their discoveries *because* of their alleged creationist beliefs. Note that all their discoveries were *naturalistic* theories of science, they did not include God as part of their workings.

Furthermore, you can hardly claim that none of those pre-Darwin scientists wouldn't have accepted the truth of evolutionary science if it had been proposed in their time. They were creationists by default, not by analysis.

Now let's take a look at selected inanities from the long-winded screed which you reposted without modification from a 1999 FR post, despite the fact that there were many refutations and corrections pointed out to you at that time.

I believe in creation, not evolution. I believe either system must be accepted by faith, for neither fits the scientific model.

Wrong. Evolution is a scientific model by any measure.

For either to be a theory, they must be repeatable events, observable events. Creation as taught in the Bible was only observed by God and His angels. Evolution by definition, happened when no one was around, and then continued so slowly that no one would be able to discern that evolution occurred, therefore it is also a non-observable event.

This goofy misunderstanding of scientific methods is common among creationists, but it's quite simply a straw man. Physical *events* need not be repeatable, scientific *confirmations* need to be repeatable/verifiable, which is a different thing entirely.

Evolution I define as the random gathering of individual molecules and elements that by random, chance accumulation formed the material world,

For about the 500th time, evolution does *not* deal with the formation of the cosmos. Evolution is a biological science.

If evolution is true, then there is no objective standard to follow at any time.

Horse manure. Objectivity still exists even without a big guy in the sky with a gray beard to hand down stone tablets.

Morals become relative and, humanity becomes hypocritical when it comes to obeying laws.

Again, this is nonsense.

A new moral standard will arise someday and put out the old out-moded one.

Probably so, but that hardly makes humanity "hypocritical". Furthermore, I'd like to point out that "new moral standards" have arisen multiple times throughout history even when most everyone believed in a godly creator -- people just kept disagreeing about what He might have said when and to whom, and how He should be followed.

Life itself would lose all important meaning with only instant gratification the driving force.

Total bull manure. Many, perhaps most atheists are as interested in living their lives for a greater cause than just their own "instant gratification", and are as well aware of the emptiness and pitfalls of "instant gratification" as any True Believer. And there are certainly plenty of selfish hedonists among Christians as well.

Any logic-based system of morality would have no feet to stand on, for it would be based only on argument, not divine revelation.

Again, utter nonsense. You could just as (il)logically claim that "any system of mathematics would have no feet to stand on, for it would be based only on argument, not divine revelation". And yet, oddly enough, 2 plus 2 still equals 4.

These evolutionary and racist descriptions of cultural growth influenced Europe up to the time of Adolph Hitler, who used evolution to explain the differences and abnormalities of the 'inferior' races such as Jews, Gypsies, and Negroes. This type of thinking was also present in the United States where it was concentrated in the area of perpetuating our own apartheid system in the south.

Do I really need to point out all the times that religious arguments were used to "justify" slavery and similar atrocities?

These events happened because people listened to the authority figures instead of their own conscience.

...and historically, oftentimes those "authority figures" leading the populace astray have been the clergy. Science holds no monopoly on misuse by demagogues with an agenda.

Almost all evidence for human evolution is extremely questionable.

This is, to put it kindly, an extremely ignorant and incorrect statement.

Scientists theorize that we evolved from quadrepedal ape like creatures, (hominoids), into bi-pedal erect walking ape like creatures, (hominids), to eventually become ourselves. Many fossils have been found that are claimed to represent the various stages of evolution from quadruped to biped, yet there are 'missing links' between these forms.

Sigh -- creationists are fixated on "missing links". Yes, there will *always* be "missing links", because not every single creature that ever lived gets fossilized (and even those rare ones which did get fossilized do not all get discovered). What creationists fail to understand is that the "gaps" in the fossil record keep getting filled in as more fossils are unearthed, and while there will *always* be gaps, the gaps keep getting smaller and smaller, making for a more and more complete record of the complete lineage. And yet, even though we've now discovered the "missing" proto-whale with legs which creationists snottily declared "missing" for so many years (until it turned up, along with its ancestors and descendants), now they're refusing to admit that the found "link" means anything at all (although they earlier claimed that its absence was Highly Significant), and now they're griping about the (much smaller) fossil gaps just before and just after the newly found fossils. It's a neverending game of "moving the goalposts".

Creationists are also famous for fixating on fossils exclusively and failing to address the many *other* lines of evidence that very clearly show common ancestry.

What does Charles Darwin say about missing links? " [snip] The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geologic record." (The Origin Of The Species, chap. 10).

Chapter 9, actually.

Here, Darwin states that if evolution is true, then there must be numberless intermediate links between species.

He *also* correctly states that the intermediate links will be far fewer in number and more localized than the resulting species, causing the transitional forms to be far rarer and harder to find. Sort of "forgot" to mention that, eh?

Yet, Darwin himself admits that there are NO finely graduated links between these species that have been discovered.

No, he does *not*. In fact, he specifically says the opposite. In chapter 10, he states, "If we may trust the observations of Philippi in Sicily, the successive changes in the marine inhabitants of that island have been many and most gradual." In chapter 6, "Look at the family of squirrels; here we have the finest gradation from animals with their tails only slightly flattened, and from others, as Sir J. Richardson has remarked, with the posterior part of their bodies rather wide and with the skin on their flanks rather full, to the so-called flying squirrels; and flying squirrels have their limbs and even the base of the tail united by a broad expanse of skin, which serves as a parachute and allows them to glide through the air to an astonishing distance from tree to tree." In other works Darwin wrote of many other examples.

You are misreading his writing. While it's somewhat stilted in a 19th century Victorian manner, it's not *that* hard to comprehend properly, especially if you bother to read the rest of the work and consider it in context. When he writes:

Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain
(emphasis mine), he is not saying that there are no finely graduated sequences to be found anywhere, as you claim, instead he is saying that the fossil record does not match the notion of such a finely graduated chain of ancestral evidence that *every* formation and *every* stratum clearly records every minute transitional change for every species which appears there.

And, as he goes on to explain, it would be unreasonable for us to expect it to be a 100% complete record, for several reasons.

He then goes on to say that the geologic record is hiding these transitional forms from us.

Are you just making this up as you go along? No, he does *not* go on to say that. What he actually does "go on to say" is to spend the next two chapters explaining why the fossil record is necessarily intermittent and incomplete in many respects -- something that paleontologists have long known. Darwin's point is that although the fossil record will provide us with many transitional forms (and had already done so even in Darwin's day), it won't be able to provide examples of *all* transitional forms which have ever existed (nor even all species).

Compare Darwin's actual summary of what he "went on to say" with your own misleading summary of it:

Summary of the preceding and present Chapters: I have attempted to show that the geological record is extremely imperfect; that only a small portion of the globe has been geologically explored with care; that only certain classes of organic beings have been largely preserved in a fossil state; that the number both of specimens and of species, preserved in our museums, is absolutely as nothing compared with the incalculable number of generations which must have passed away even during a single formation; that, owing to subsidence being necessary for the accumulation of fossiliferous deposits thick enough to resist future degradation, enormous intervals of time have elapsed between the successive formations; that there has probably been more extinction during the periods of subsidence, and more variation during the periods of elevation, and during the latter the record will have been least perfectly kept; that each single formation has not been continuously deposited; that the duration of each formation is, perhaps, short compared with the average duration of specific forms; that migration has played an important part in the first appearance of new forms in any one area and formation; that widely ranging species are those which have varied most, and have oftenest given rise to new species; and that varieties have at first often been local. All these causes taken conjointly, must have tended to make the geological record extremely imperfect, and will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps.
There now, that's quite a bit different from your version, isn't it?

How could a belief system, based on unobserved events with no proof to back it up, become so prevalent in society?

Because contrary to your misprepresentations, evidence *was* available even in Darwin's time, and has only become more overwhelming with each passing year since 1859.

In the 100 years that have passed since Darwin, we have more than quadrupled the number of fossil species that we have found and these links still have yet to be announced.

Are you daft? Here are a few hundred for you, and there are plenty more where those came from.

Why was Darwin's theory accepted at all when by education he was not a scientist, but a theologian?

For the same reason that Einstein's theory of relativity was accepted when he was working in a patent office -- because their theories were so obviously correct and passed all verification tests they were put to.

If you're going to speculate about scientific history, why don't you learn some first?

Modem science has proven through the archaeological record that the geologic column does not contain these missing links or any evidence for gradual change via evolution.

If believing that fiction helps you sleep at night, go for it.

Evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould has introduced his theory to explain the gaps between species. 'Punctuated Equilibrium ' is the new theory that species remain the same for long periods of time, and then through sudden, short bursts of evolutionary lightning lasting maybe 500,000 years or so, then reappear as new, different species.

Gould popularized it and gave it a catchy name, but contrary to the beliefs of clueless creationists, it's hardly a "new theory". Darwin himself described it as an unavoidable consequence of evolutionary dynamics in 1859. Again, why don't you actually learn some scientific history before you attempt to critique it? 33333333333333

I further believe that these slow, intermittent results accord well with what geology tells us of the rate and manner at which the inhabitants of the world have changed." (Darwin, Ch. 4, "Natural Selection," pp. 140-141)

But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly as is represented in the diagram, though in itself made somewhat irregular, nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form remains for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification. (Darwin, Ch. 4, "Natural Selection," pp. 152)

"It is a more important consideration ... that the period during which each species underwent modification, though long as measured by years, was probably short in comparison with that during which it remained without undergoing any change." (Darwin, Ch. 10, "On the imperfection of the geological record," p. 428)

"Widely ranging species vary most, and varieties are often at first local, -- both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate links less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; and when they do spread, if discovered in a geological formation, they will appear as if suddenly created there, and will be simply classed as new species. [Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 1st Edition 1859, p.439]

[All quotes from Darwin's 1859 "On the Origin of Species"]

This is classic Punctuated Equilibrium -- from Charles Darwin in 1859.

This theory explains the gaps in fossil record because there wouldn't be enough time for significant fossils to be formed in order for us to find them 5 million years later!

That's an amazingly grotesque misinterpretation of punctuated equilibrium. Instead, PE says that transitional periods will be considerably shorter and more localized than periods of stasis in species. This is the expected result of evolutionary dynamics, and the accuracy of this model is confirmed by the patterns found in the fossil record.

Darwin said his fossils were there but we didn't find them yet.

No, he didn't.

Stephen Jay Gould says the fossils aren't there, that's why there are gaps in the fossil record.

No, he didn't.

If I told you I did my homework, but the dog ate it, would you believe me?

No, nor would I believe your gross misrepresentations of evolutionary science. If I thought there was any chance you understood the nature of your straw men, I'd call you a liar. But instead, I think it's pretty clear you're merely incredibly misinformed.

Once again, the proof, is that there is no proof.

Yet another load of manure. No scientist says this, that's just what creationists say when they want to bear false witness about what science actually entails.

One again, the proof is that there are *mountains* of evidence supporting evolution, along dozens of independent lines of evidence. You only reveal your ignorance when you make such ridiculous and transparently false claims. If you want to remedy that, you can get started here.

Evolution is such a fun theory, you can think up any zany idea from microbes on meteors to aliens with a mission to populate the universe and 'science' will back you up;

What exactly are you smoking?

but what happens if you say, " In the beginning, God......

Then people ask for evidence, and then you run away.

Neither creation or evolution has ever been witnessed by man. Both beliefs must be accepted by faith.

Nonsense. Evolution has indeed been witnessed by man, and evolution hardly "must" be accepted by "faith", it is accepted by verification and evidence.

Spontaneous generation has never been observed. This was proved by Louis Pasteur and Joseph Lister in the 1800's when we discovered germs. Life only appears when life already existed. This is called the Law of Biogenesis.

This is without a doubt one of the stupidest arguments in the creationist quiver, and that's really saying something. The "law of biogenesis" only dealt with debunking the primitive belief that *complex* life doesn't arise *overnight* from nonliving material, such as mice appearing "out of nowhere" in spoiled grain. It is completely irrelevant to the question of whether *an extremely simple and primitive* spark of life could arise under the right conditions given vast amounts of time and an entire world in which to occur, and not even Pasteur or Lister would have claimed that it did. I'm embarrassed for creationists every time they make this goofy argument.

Another way to approach this argument is to refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Yawn. Evolution in no way violates any law of thermodynamics. Any attempt to "prove" that it does grossly misrepresents either thermodynamics, or evolution, or both. Get over it.

Over the long periods of time necessary for evolution to occur, these early chance chemical combinations would be bombarded by cosmic rays, radioactive enough to destroy whatever is exposed.

Early life originated in deep hydrothermal vents. No cosmic rays. Sorry.

Our first primordial cell would have no such mechanism built in yet to process ultraviolet radiation. Therefore, evolution cannot have occurred.

Ultraviolet does not penetrate to deep hydrothermal vents. Sorry.

Before the introduction of oxygen into the atmosphere, cosmic rays would destroy all life forms on the planet, for it is oxygen that is Ozone, O3.

Cosmis rays do not penetrate to deep hydrothermal vents. Sorry.

If there was an oxygen atmosphere

At that time there wasn't, sorry.

If a life form did evolve, it would have to evolve with many existing functions the first time. A life form needs a mouth, a digestive system, a method of locomotion, and reproductive organs.

No it doesn't, sorry.

With who would this life form mate?

Sex arose much later, sorry.

Asexuality itself demands a complex system of operation, a complex series of commands to initiate.

Not in its simplest forms it doesn't, sorry.

What did it eat? Think, not only did this life form need a mechanism of ingesting material to be processed as energy, but that material had to be nearby. How could all these internal organs evolve by chance?

Simple metabolic chemical reactions do not require "internal organs", sorry.

Think, not only the internal organs evolved, but so did the nerve system that controls these organs along with the organism's brain along with the intelligence to operate these organs in a manner that allowed the organism to survive.

Unicellular organisms do not have "nerves" or "brains", sorry. And they get along just fine.

We call this excess material waste, and it is poisonous. How was this waste removed from the organism?


How did it survive in it's primitive surroundings?


How did any intelligent information get to these important functional systems in a manner that was beneficial to the organism? What type of brain and nervous system evolves by chance?

A simple one, to start with. But again, that came much later. Or not at all, in the case of plants, and they're doing just fine also.

If the organism didn't have eyes, how did it know when to open it's mouth when it was time to eat? How did hunger pains evolve?

Ask the plants.

All of these things speak of intelligence.

No they don't. Nor do your ill-conceived arguments, actually.

The pure chemistry of a cell is not enough to explain the working of a cell, although the workings are chemical.

Yes, actually, it is.

A dead body is dead; WHY? It has all the chemicals necessary to support life already existing in a complete form with nothing missing, right?

It's missing autocatalysis.

Mendels' law of genetics prove that variation can occur within a species, but cannot create a new species across phylum boundaries.

Mendel's laws "prove" no such thing, sorry.

Dogs remain dogs, and cats remain cats.

And yet, both arose from their common ancestor, Cimolestes in the late Cretaceous. Something seems amiss with your notions.

Aargh, I'm up *way* too late. I'll stop here. I'll address the rest of your errors tomorrow when I get a chance.

78 posted on 12/28/2003 4:02:14 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: RaceBannon
[RB:] No, to believe that something came from nothing all by itself
[Ich:] Straw man, that's not what "evolutionists" believe. Nice try.
[RB:] Nice try. You guys dont have anything other than to believe that life ame from non life, from nothing. You lose again.

Race, do I *really* have to explain to you the difference between "nonliving matter" and "nothing"? Your original statement was in error. Learn to accept your mistakes gracefully when they are pointed out to you.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, we most certainly do have "anything other than to believe", we have mountains of evidence on our side.

No, you believing that people came from hydrogen gas just on normal observed physical principles is faith, yet you fail to see what you believe. That is insanity.

You're getting shrill, son.

And could you rephrase "yet you fail to see what you believe" into something more resembling a coherent thought? Thanks.

Again, though, accepting what all the available evidence indicates is hardly a matter of "faith", much less "insanity".

Actually, between the two of us, I have been the only one speaking the truth,

Odd, then, that it so often differs from the actual sources you claim to be representing. Isn't bearing false witness a sin?

and you show you dont know the actual issue.

If that belief makes you happy, then I'm happy for you.

But just for giggles, do feel free to give a specific example of where you imagine that I "don't know the actual issue".

79 posted on 12/28/2003 4:14:46 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
And if so, it's trivially true -- for lack of any naturalistic explanations, *everyone* was a creationist back then.
While most of what you write is more or less correct, this is definitely not true. A number of the ancient Greeks promoted the idea of the evolution of creatures. For better or for worse, the most influential -- Plato and Aristotle -- were not among them. From a typical website on evolution:

Evolution is not so much a modern discovery as some of its advocates would have us believe. It made its appearance early in Greek philosophy, and maintained its position more or less, with the most diverse modifications, and frequently confused with the idea of emanation, until the close of ancient thought. The Greeks had, it is true, no term exactly equivalent to " evolution"; but when Thales asserts that all things originated from water; when Anaximenes calls air the principle of all things, regarding the subsequent process as a thinning or thickening, they must have considered individual beings and the phenomenal world as, a result of evolution, even if they did not carry the process out in detail. Anaximander is often regarded as a precursor of the modem theory of development. He deduces living beings, in a gradual development, from moisture under the influence of warmth, and suggests the view that men originated from animals of another sort, since if they had come into existence as human beings, needing fostering care for a long time, they would not have been able to maintain their existence. In Empedocles, as in Epicurus and Lucretius, who follow in Hs footsteps, there are rudimentary suggestions of the Darwinian theory in its broader sense; and here too, as with Darwin, the mechanical principle comes in; the process is adapted to a certain end by a sort of natural selection, without regarding nature as deliberately forming its results for these ends.

80 posted on 12/28/2003 9:11:28 AM PST by DallasMike
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