How Many Catholics Were Killed During Cromwell and Henry VIII In England?

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[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

My daughter who is named Chelsea after Thomas Moores residence is doing a Research Paper for History on Saint Thomas Moore.

In one of his late letters he referrs to the death of 4000 Catholics in the small port town of Chelsea, but we are having a hard time coming up with a total number of Catholics killed as a result of Henry VIII's and Cromwells reformation.

All the encyclopedia's cover the number of his wifes, how much money he "borrowed" from the Church, but nowhere can I find the number of Catholics killed.

[RobbyS]

I must not have made myself clear. Mary promised NOT to return Church lands. This would have molified even merchants since many had acquired such lands in their efforts to become real gentlemen.

The Whigs presume too much on the facts. It is ;pgical to think of England as solidly Protestant by 1588, forty years after Protestantism gained ascendency. but not in 1559.

As to Elizabeth, we might think of her in French terms as a politique and leave it at that.

[LexBaird]

Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, was not Bloody Mary. That was Mary Tudor, Elizabeth's older sibling.

[LexBaird]

Oops. Should have read farther before posting. Sorry for piling on.

[exmarine]

I think your daughter's efforts would be better served researching how many protestants were killed under Bloody Mary (Elizabeth's predecessor) and other tyrants under the authority of the Pope. Protestants do not have a historical pattern of killing catholics - the opposite is true. You might also want to look into the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, the Counter-Reformation and the 30 years war - all the result of catholic persecution and violence toward protestants.

By the way, it was at the order of Henry VIII and the hatred of the catholic church that the martyr William Tyndale was murdered. His crime: printing bibles for the masses! That evil Tyndale! After his murder by Henry (who is known for persecuting protestants not catholics), Henry read Tyndale's bible wherein Tyndale had inscribed a dedication to the king! Wow! Ole Henry was so flattered he had the bibles disseminated throughout England - little did he know that that act sowed the seeds of the eventual end of the tyrannical english throne (Charles I executed by Cromwell in 1644).

You will not find great numbers of victims at the hands of protestants. Cromwell gave up the rule of England voluntarily. How many tyrants do you know that would do that?

[exmarine]

No, but Mary Queen of Scots was also a hater and persecutor of protestants. John Knox was courageous thorn in her side but God protected him.

[Phsstpok]

Re Bloody Mary:

Read the rest of the thread. You're now the 976th person to point this out to me. My death sentance, however, has been commuted... at least on this feaux pas.

[LexBaird]

Re Bloody Mary: Read the rest of the thread. You're now the 976th person to point this out to me. My death sentance, however, has been commuted... at least on this feaux pas.

My mea culpa is in the next post.

However, I now feel obligated to point out that you misspelled sentence and faux pas. So, would you prefer the stake or hanging, drawing and quartering? ;)

[Campion]

You might also want to look into the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, the Counter-Reformation and the 30 years war - all the result of catholic persecution and violence toward protestants.

I guess the Crusades were against the Islamic Protestants, huh, the ones who existed 300 years before Luther and faced Mecca when they prayed?

There was no "violence" or "persecution" involved in the Counter-Reformation. It's the name of a historical period noted for the rebirth of orthodox Catholic theology. Maybe you'd like to enumerate all the Protestants killed by St. John of the Cross?

Protestants do not have a historical pattern of killing catholics - the opposite is true.

The h*ll you say. I guess when the English Protestants piled rocks on top of pregnant St. Margaret Clitherow to kill her for the crime of concealing a priest in her house, they were just acting outside their "historical pattern". Ditto for chopping off St. Thomas More's head for refusing to bow to Henry VIII as "head of the Church in England". Outside the historical pattern.

Read something other than Foxe's Book of Martyrs and Fables, for a change.

[Palladin]

You may be right about this author. I didn't read that far.

[LexBaird]

No, but Mary Queen of Scots was also a hater and persecutor of protestants

Mary spent virtually her entire life as a pawn of one or another faction. She was never in a position to persecute anyone.

At six years old she was shipped off to France, where she was married off at 16 to the Prince, who died two years later. She returned to Scotland, where she was married off to her cousin who was murdered two years later. He was the father of James.

Then she was married (some say by force, others that she was a conspirator) to Bothwell, who was the chief suspect in the murder. One year later, she fled to the "protection" of her cousin, Elizabeth, who promptly locked her up for the next 19 years before executing her.

[Campion]

I would not be at all surprised if the executions were in the hundreds under Elizabeth. But, with respect to Henry, I don't think it was anywhere near 400,000, 'cause the sum total of those executed for EVERY offense under Henry was only in the 70k range . . .

You're certainly correct. However, there may perhaps have been 4,000 (not 400,000) Catholics killed under Henry -- not judicially executed, but killed by agents of the Crown -- soldiers and the like. There were some Catholic revolts put down by force ... wasn't one called "the Pilgrimage of Grace"?

[Phsstpok]

shoot me now!

[LexBaird]

Shoot him now! Shoot him now!
You keep out of this. He doesn't have to shoot you now.
Well, I say he DOES have to shoot me now! So shoot!

BLAM

You're despicable.

[AnAmericanMother]

But not in Chelsea alone (with a population in the hundreds) as originally asserted. That was the four thousand figure - in the original inquiry - the four HUNDRED thousand figure was posited by somebody else in the middle of the thread somewhere for all of Henry's reign.

And again, as far as the various incidents in which Henry slaughtered his own countrymen, it's hard to disentangle religious from political and economic motives at this distance (Henry was a very, very greedy man and a vengeful one - anybody who can kill off wives and close advisors the way he did wouldn't have any compunction about slaughtering folks he didn't even know, for whatever reason. Tudorcide?) The Pilgrimage of Grace was not merely a Catholic revolt - it had more to do with the economic effects of the Dissolution in the North of England, not to mention the story running around the North that the Crown was going to start confiscating individuals' property once it got through with the Church . . .

Many Englishmen who probably never gave religion a serious thought and had no idea of being recusant Catholic (actually at that point everybody was Catholic) were horrified at the turn Henry VIII took from the affable golden prince to the monster he became by the end of his life.

[RobbyS]

In France, the Protestants were the losers in a series of bloody religious wars. During those wars both Catholics and Protestants were guilty of many atrocities. Finally the Protestant leader agreed to adopt the religion of the majority, the Catholics, and the wars came to an end. The Protestants were at first tolerated, but since they enjoyed something like autonomy, the French king had to conquer their cities to bring them under control. Then about fifty years later, they were given the choice of becoming Catholic and fleeing the country. Most fled.

In England, Thanks largely to Elizabeth, there were no relgious wars in the 16th Century. The Catholics enjoyed a kind of toleration, which became less and less as time wore on. Then in the 1640s there was a war between the king and the Purtians. The Puritans won, killed the king, and established a religous dicatatorship was which extended by force to Scotland and to Ireland. An uprising was savagely suppressed, so that Cromwell enjoys the same reputation there that Sherman does in Georgia. Crowmwell thought about making himself king, but died. His surviving son was too weak to succed him. so the son of the late king was invited
to come home and become king. He and his brother sought to regain the power that had been lost to Parliament. Finally his brother, a Catholic, was deposed and a Protestant king ws imported from the Netherlands. General toleration was allowed, except for Catholics, who were forbidden any role in public life. Ireland was reduced to virtuall slavery, but the people remained largely Catholic, except in the northeast corner which had been settled by lowland Scots.

[dsc]

St. Thomas More wrote of the killing of thousands of Catholics—entire villages.

[Volubrjotr]

The puritans murdered 40,000 Catholics in just Oradours of Drogheda and Wexford alone.

[Volubrjotr]

“Treason” Was newly defined under Elizabeth 1 known as The Penal Laws. It was TREASON to BE Catholic.

[Volubrjotr]

Here’s King Henry’s Tally:

King Henry Murdered 7 Catholic Canonized Martyrs and 33 Catholic Blessed Martyrs From the execution of two cardinals, two archbishops, 18 bishops, 13 abbots of large monasteries, 500 priors and monks, 38 University Doctors , 12 Dukes or Counts, 164 noblemen, 124 private citizens and 110 women. These were all without the excuse of any particular reasons of State.

[Volubrjotr]

Under Henry/Elizabeth/James/& Cromwell: They murdered more Catholics than the Crusades and Spanish Inquisitions combined. In fact the Spanish Inquisition was fairly low and dealt with muslims infiltrating The Church practicing taqiyya & kitman.

The modus operandi of England’s Protestantism, Islam’s Quran, and Hitlers, Mein Kampf are undeniable. In England’s attempt to take back America, Islam was used against The United States ~ This was America’s first war against the attacking (Ottoman Empire) and after winning its freedom from the severe religious persecution of The Catholics by England.
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