How Many Catholics Were Killed During Cromwell and Henry VIII In England?

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[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

My daughter who is named Chelsea after Thomas Moores residence is doing a Research Paper for History on Saint Thomas Moore.

In one of his late letters he referrs to the death of 4000 Catholics in the small port town of Chelsea, but we are having a hard time coming up with a total number of Catholics killed as a result of Henry VIII's and Cromwells reformation.

All the encyclopedia's cover the number of his wifes, how much money he "borrowed" from the Church, but nowhere can I find the number of Catholics killed.

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

Well, what we are finding out is the the number of Catholics killed in certain cities in a period of 10 to 12 hours exceeded the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition.

But I find it curious with all the brain power here at FR, I still don't see a good estimate of the Catholics who died during Henry's and Cromwells reformation in England.

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

Yes and what is curious is that everyone has heard of the deaths during the reign of "Blood Mary" but the numbers of Catholics who died during the life of Henry VIII doesn't seem to be of interest to anyone....

[Verginius Rufus]

Mary Queen of Scots was the daughter of King James V of Scotland, who was the son of James IV and Margaret Tudor, a sister of Henry VIII. That means James V and Elizabeth were first cousins, so Elizabeth and Mary would be first cousins once removed.

Mary Queen of Scots' son James VI, later Elizabeth's successor as James I of England, was descended from Margaret Tudor on two lines, since his father Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, was also a grandson of Margaret Tudor (his mother was the half-sister of James V).

[AnAmericanMother]

Be sure to distinguish Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII's minister in charge of the Dissolution, and Oliver Cromwell, who is the first individual who will leap to most people's minds.

I pulled up these numbers from spartacus.net:

Number of people executed for heresy in England and Wales.

Monarch Dates Executed

Henry VII 1485-1509 24
Henry VIII 1509-1547 81
Edward VI 1547-1553 2
Mary 1553-1558 280
Elizabeth 1558-1603 4

[CatoRenasci]

I think you are unlikely to find good information easily, on the web. Especially as you are talking about two periods separated by a century: Henry VIII reigned in the first half of the 16th century (1509-1547) and was Protestant only in his later years. Cromwell lead the Parliamentary Army that defeated Charles I (executed 1649) and was Lord Protector in the middle of the 17th century (1653-1658). Bloody Mary (1553-1558) and Elizibeth I (1558-1603), James I and Charles I reigned between Henry VIII and Cromwell.

As to the relative merits of persecution by Henry VIII and Mary I, biography.com puts it this way:

The persecutions of her reign were no more severe than many on the European continent, but were unprecedented in England.

Henry VIII's depradations against the Church were more material than murderous, most of the authorities agree. Moore's persecution was unusual because he was so prominent and had been such a close aide of Henry. Had he been an ordinary country gentleman, I doubt he would have been bothered in his Catholicism. Persecution of the Jesuits came later, under Elizabeth and her successors. While Henry VIII was no saint, it looks like it was Bloody Mary who really ratcheted up the religious strife in England.

[Phsstpok]

Yep. I connected the two Mary's in my mind and have been blithely ignoring one or the other for quite some time. Both were Catholics and involved in the intrigues and goings on surrrounding the succesion of Henry and the eventual reign of Elizabeh 1 and from looking at how many web sites about Mary QOS say "not Bloody Mary" I gather I'm not alone.

I think I got the confusion from a novel about those times that just assumed I knew which Mary they were talking about when they were describing some particular events and I just went with it. I've spent much more time reading about the pre-Roman church (Saint Columba and Iona, the Cele De, etc.) in the last couple of years. Of course now I'll probably start mixing up Columba and Patrick (foot prints in stone in Northwest Scotland vs. snakes in Ireland... got it).

[Prince Charles]

Cromwell's army slaughtered 30,000 Irish men, women and children in the city of Drogheda, during the Battle of the Boyne.

[RobbyS]

The great majority of Catholices executed by Elizabath were for "treason," even though most, like the Jesuit Edmund Campion, were really killed for their faith. The situation of Roman Catholics and separatists was pretty much the same as that of Christians in China today.

[Prince Charles]

My bad, that should be 3,000.

[Snuffington]

Very problematic question. I honestly would be skeptical about any source from that time period. There was a religious war going on all over Europe, and both sides tended to inflate their enemies attrocities to use as propaganda.

I don't say that to diminish the real suffering though. A whole lot of people died. It's just very difficult and maybe impossible to discern the real number.

[Conservative4Ever]

Yep...you got it. Thanks for better clarification on the relationship.

Red

[CatoRenasci]

It seems very difficult for that to have happened, when Oliver Cromwell died in 1658 and the Battle of the Boyne was fought in July 1690. The opposing armies at the Boyne were commanded, respectively, by James II and William of Orange (William III). The battle put paid to any hope of a Catholic Stuart restoration, but there was no massacre of civilians after the battle.

Cromwell did devastate Ireland in 1649-50, and massacred the inhabitants of Drogheda.

[wimpycat]

The bigger numbers will come out of Oliver Cromwell's time, more so than Henry VIII's time.

Numbers of Catholics killed specifically for their religion will be hard to come by during the Tudor period, because there is no objective way of knowing how many were killed specifically for heresy and how many were killed for treason. Plus, during Henry VIII's time in particular, a few of what we would call protestants today were executed for heresy. Henry VIII's religious leanings were Catholic for the most part. Even though he broke with Rome, he considered himself a Catholic on just about all doctrinal matters. He definitely wasn't a Lutheran--which was about the only brand of true Protestant around during his time. The Anglican church was in an embryonic state at his death. His son, Edward VI, however, was most definitely a Protestant.

[Cicero]

The number of Catholics officially executed for treason by Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth is fairly small, amounting to a few hundred under Elizabeth and a less definite number under Henry. I don't have the information at hand, but what you may be thinking of was "the Pilgrimage of Grace," an uprising by Catholics in the north of England against Henry VIII's radical religious policies. Many of these people were hunted down and killed and their leaders were executed.

You can find some information on the Pilgrimage of Grace here:

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Documents/PilgrimageofGrace.htm

http://www.britainexpress.com/History/pilgrimage.htm

http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/york/leisure/YORK_LEISURE_BOOKREVIEWS9.html

According to these sources, the leaders were executed, and at least 300 of the rebels were hanged after they trustingly agreed to disperse.

[Cicero]

There's also a book on the Pilgrimage of Grace, which you can probably find at Amazon:

[Conservative4Ever]

Is this the incident that is referred to in the song 'The wearing of the Green'? ...they are hanging men and women there for wearing of the green....

Ahhh yes, the British...what the populace of Scotland and Ireland have suffered at the hands of the British.

Red

[Looking for Diogenes]

The Catholic Encyclopedia ahs an article on Henry VIII. The last two paragrpahs mention religous persecutions and details the executions of at least a couple of dozen individuals. The Catholics among them have all been beatified. Henry VIII

They don't mention any mass pograms against Catholics by Henry.

Mary Tudor's entry includes this text:

Both under Henry VIII and Edward VI men had been burned for religion, and Protestant bishops like Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley had had a principal hand in their burning. It seems to be generally admitted now that no vindictive thirst for blood prompted the deplorable severities which followed, but they have weighed heavily upon the memory of Mary, and it seems on the whole probable that in her conscientious but misguided zeal for the peace of the Church, she was herself principally responsible for them. In less than four years 277 persons were burned to death. Some, like Cranmer, Latimer, and Ridley, were men of influence and high position, but the majority belonged to the lower orders. Still these last were dangerous, because, as Dr. Gairdner has pointed out, heresy and sedition were at that time almost convertible terms. In regard to these executions, a much more lenient and at the same time more equitable judgment now prevails than was formerly the case.

[wimpycat]

Ahhh yes, the British...what the populace of Scotland and Ireland have suffered at the hands of the British.

If the British hadn't driven out large numbers of Scots and Irish from their homelands (as well as plenty of English) we wouldn't have a U.S. Scotland, England and Ireland's loss was our gain.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

This is from memory:
400,000 + under Henry VIII
250,000 + under Elizabeth;
? under Cromwell

[wimpycat]

I'd like to see a source for that. I don't trust your memory.