Massachusetts Gun Laws Turn Store Full of Customers into Cowering Targets*

Worcester (MA) Telegram and Gazette (owned by New York Times Publishing) ^ | 12/16/03 | Williamson

[Maelstrom]

Now THAT is cool!

[Shooter 2.5]

The graphic is courtesy of jedge and the laws are courtesy of the NRA.

[jdege]

The NRA has certainly been a help in getting these laws passed, but the primary effort has been by local gun-rights supporters in each state.

There simply is no way any D.C.-based lobbying group could do what has been done on this issue - push legal reform in every state, constantly, over decades.

It takes real grass roots - not astroturf.

[Shooter 2.5]

The NRA has clinics as to how to start grass roots organizations.

Our grassroots organization was given matching funds to get started in Oak Park, Illinois during the handgun ban.

When the opposition starts to name any other group other than the NRA, I'll pay attention to those groups.

Thanks for the graphic.

[garybob]

So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back?

Yes.

In his truck?

Even better. Makes hauling off his dead carcass easier.

This kind of thing happens all the time, and will continue to happen regardless of CCW in any State.

Of the 31 "Shall Issue" states, can you cite one example of something like that happening?

[Travis McGee]

If the story is accurate, by the way, there's not a damned thing an ARMED citizen could have done unless they happened to be standing right next to the action.

That's true.

The guy shot 2 people and left. So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back? In his truck?

Yes, I'd have dropped him, either in the front or the back or the side, whichever shot presented itself. If someone commits a shooting, an axing or a knifing and leaves with the weapon, the legal presumption is that he is on his way to commit another murder, and you are allowed to shoot him. It's a very clear exception to the "can't shoot a felon who's leaving" rule. These psychos often have a little list in their head. "After Lowe's, my old job. Then Mom's. Then the ex-wife."

This kind of thing happens all the time, and will continue to happen regardless of CCW in any State. I think the stats show it happens a lot less in states with CCW, that there is a clear dropoff in incidence. These guys are out to settle a score, and not get dropped in their tracks, (at least not before completing their "mission.")

[Travis McGee]

I don't know about TX, but in FL the law is different. There was a famous workplace shooting case in Miami 15 years ago. A nut rode up to an engine repair shop on a bike with a shotgun slung on his back. He killed 4 or 5 folks, slung his shotgun, got on his bike and rode away.

Some guys from another business across the street heard the shooting and saw the guy leave. They jumped in a car, got next to the man with the shotgun slung on his back, and shot him to death from their car.

This led to a lot of education on this point of the law for us. The DA said that since the guy had just used the weapon to inflict bodily harm, and still had it, he presented an immediate danger to the public even though his weapon was slung and he was riding away on a bike.

Who knows who his next victim might be? Nobody is obligated to find out. He still had the weapon, and the 2 civilians made a "good shoot" and got kudos all around, from the cops to the mayor. (They were worried at first and came up with a cock and bull "accidental discharge/warning shot" story first to cover themselves. No need. They were not even booked.)

I think the situation in Mass is the same. The perp had just used the gun, and still had it. He's fair game, because the presumption is that he could use it again at any moment to kill the next person he saw.

[wardaddy]

I think if one is armed and in the presence of someone killing another person that it's reasonable to assume that one may use deadly force to stop it unless that person is a cop.

That Miami story reminds me of the crackhead bank robber who rode his bicycle to the bank armed with a fake gun and with a manhole lid strapped to his chest as makeshift body armour. He was caught fleeing the bank on the bike making a rather slow getaway burdened with the 90lb manhole lid and the red dye spewing bag of money.

[teeman8r]

never bring a hammer to a gunfight...

teeman

[Travis McGee]

Now that's a mental image!

[Dan Evans]

So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back? In his truck?

I would have shot him in the back or in his truck and taken my chances with the jury. It would have been the right thing to do.

[ExSoldier]

"They jumped in a car, got next to the man with the shotgun slung on his back, and shot him to death from their car."

LOL Travis, this happened in my town...I remember it well. They not only shot the bozo....they ran him over too! The tenth anniversary of that incident just passed and they tried to re-interview the heroes, but one had already passed away and the other said he knew he'd done the right thing, but that he was "haunted." I guess good people handle things in different ways. I think I not only would have run him over, I'd have locked the wheels on him.

[Travis McGee]

I remember that was a BIG case at the time. I forgot they ran over him! I think it was a Cadillac convertible from a classic car dealership. Classic case too! I think they ran over him to hide the bullet wound, afraid they'd get in legal trouble.

The nutbar was angry because they overcharged him for a lawnmower engine repair, as I recall. About five people killed over a lawnmower repair bill...

[ExSoldier]

"About five people killed over a lawnmower repair bill..."

Including the shop owner and his wife. The son was sick or late or something. Today he owns the business and mentioned his lucky escape in the article a few months ago. But he lost his parents. There is certainly something to be said about being armed on the job. Too bad they won't allow armed teachers.

There is a gang war brewing at my school. Guns and knives in and out every day. I personally wouldn't be surprised if our principal had a cut of the action on drugs, since he invited all the thugs and gang members who were expelled back into school.

[R. Scott]

People never expect eruption of violence…

I think it is safe to say there are more eruptions of violence than fatal cases of the flu – but people seem to be running scared of the flu and the vaccines are being snapped up as fast as they become available. We’ve had possibly three fatal cases of flu in Virginia this season, and that many people were shot yesterday alone here in Hampton Roads. Why should the random nut case surprise them, and why aren’t they rushing to be prepared for it?

[Travis McGee]

What's the demo breakdown at school?

[ExSoldier]

About 70% Haitian, 20% other Carribbean groups, and the rest spread out over thirty other nationalities. 4000 kids in a school built to hold 2400. I'm the chairman of the school chapter of the VFW....Very Few Whites.

The war seems to be breaking down between the Haitians and the Jamaicans. The Haitians are more numerous but the Jamaicans are much more violent. Mark my words, a teacher is gonna get capped sometime this year if there is not some form of intervention and I doubt it'll be me or one of the other five ex-military guys there.

Lemme think...there's me: a former treadhead slash light infantryman; then there is a fmr Coastie; a retired USAF PJ and a retired airborne ranger with his last 12 years in a line ranger battalion. He got out in 1997 and became a teacher at my school Great guy, my best buddy at the school.

[oyez]

a circular saw blade can do nasty things when used as a frisbee,

But you got to get the thing out of the packaging first.

[ninenot]

So if YOU were at the cash register, armed, exactly what would you have done? Shot the perp in the back?

Yes.

You will go to jail for (minimum) manslaughter, possible 2nd-degree murder. In ALL States, it is illegal to shoot ANYONE in the back, as they are not a threat if they are walking/running away.

Same-o with shooting in his truck--more jail time unless he was pointing the weapon OR the truck at you.

Easy. About 3 months, ago, factory shoot-em-up in Mississippi. About 2 months ago, another factory shoot-em-up in Indiana.

Happens all the time.

[ninenot]

If someone commits a shooting, an axing or a knifing and leaves with the weapon, the legal presumption is that he is on his way to commit another murder, and you are allowed to shoot him. It's a very clear exception to the "can't shoot a felon who's leaving" rule. These psychos often have a little list in their head.

Not in Wisconsin. Not in Texas, according to a prior post.

And, given the mindset of both journalists and DA's in almost the entire USofA, noplace else, either.

That "exception" you cite most likely applies only to LEO's, after they've screamed "stop/drop" a few dozen times.

But hey--try it sometime. Let me know how your case turns out.