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The Case of KAL 007
Various ^ | Various

Posted on 12/05/2003 11:43:40 AM PST by struwwelpeter

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To: Mulder
It is a documented fact that the Soviets tried to interfere with the 1980 election with the objective of stopping Reagan's candidacy
They did ?
41 posted on 12/05/2003 2:51:15 PM PST by 1066AD
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To: struwwelpeter
Six years after the shootdown, KAL was held liable unlimited damages due to "willful misconduct" in straying over Soviet air-space. A US Federal court ruled that their misconduct was "an intentional act performed with knowledge of likely injury to passengers" and with "reckless disregard of the consequences."

I read about this in the article at the top, but I don't understand why a U.S. Federal court would have any jurisdiction in the case. I have always been under the impression that international flights of this sort would be subject to international law, not U.S. law.

It sounds odd, but liability limits on a flight will change depending on where the incident occurs. An incident that occurs outside U.S. airspace would be subject to either foreign laws, or to maritime law (which, I believe, has the most stringent liability limits of them all).

42 posted on 12/05/2003 2:54:30 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: Alberta's Child
Your argument is valid, and was used by the White Star line when the US Senate held exhaustive hearings about the Titanic, and US courts decided how much in damages US relatives and surviving passengers could sue for.

For some reason, wherever an American butt is planted during an accident, whether on a British ship or a Korean airliner, US courts have to have their say.

OTOH, imagine a corporation doing business in Canada, endangering or killing Canadian citizens, and having assets in Canada as well. Wouldn't Canadian courts try to see that their citizens received a fair shake as well?

43 posted on 12/05/2003 3:07:15 PM PST by struwwelpeter
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To: First_Salute
Oh, I wasn't familiar with the term. Once I saw "Russian MIGs" (Soviet MiGs? - Actually Sukhois in both cases) in the text, I figured the rest of the article was just as accurate.

I hadn't given much thought to the HF angle, I'm sort of in an SSB and multichannel rut. One of these days I'll have to give the "ditty chasers" the respect they deserve.

44 posted on 12/05/2003 3:12:29 PM PST by struwwelpeter
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To: 1066AD
Yes, and they had the assistance of an ex-president in the 1984 elections. I can't think of his name, but the former Soviet ambassador to the UN wrote in his memoirs that Jimmy Carter had asked for their help in keeping Reagan out of the White House.
45 posted on 12/05/2003 3:16:44 PM PST by Taylor42
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To: struwwelpeter
It may be instructive, that the Russians did not try to call the aircraft on shortwave frequencies --- though they do indeed have as much that capability as do we.
46 posted on 12/05/2003 3:16:56 PM PST by First_Salute
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To: First_Salute
How do you know that an "evil corporation" did not kill her?

Let's just say, without going through all the details, that the odds are very much against it. And even knowing the weaknesses of Occam's Razor, it is very difficult not to apply it in this case.

Perhaps you should find a lawyer and take a shot at "life's lottery" now that the odds are in your favor (as long is you are not sure that an "evil corporation" did not kill her.

If I was interested in playing "life's lottery", I could have taken any number of other opportunities to do so. I suppose I could have blamed the tobacco industry (she had been a smoker) or the food industry (she had gained wait after she quit smoking) but those things normally don't kill 39 year-old women and, at best, contributed to, but did not cause, her death.

You might, this very evening, undergo a sudden recovery of your "long lost memory as to the events of that day."

I've got pretty clear memories of that day, actually, and of quite a few days before her death despite the fact that I'm almost the same age she was when she died. I never went through the 4 initial phases of grief that people are supposed to go through and accepted her death pretty much immediately, probably because of how my father, who was always pretty honest with me, reacted to her death. And given how my father and family (including childless aunts and an uncle) raised me, I can't really complain about my childhood. What I think I probably missed out the most from was that my mother had been a computer programmer in the 1960s (against the odds -- they gave her the logic test on a lark because the men in her office were having trouble passing it and she was very smart) and she was one of the only people in my family I could have talked "shop" with about computers. None of the rest of them are computer people.

Yet in all seriousness, I am very sad to hear of such a loss, and as it was your loss, and I pray that some tender happiness came your way, soon. God bless.

I appreciate your best wishes but I was otherwise a quite happy child who was well taken care of by a loving family. My point is not to find sympathy but simply to point out that I live in a world that doesn't demand that every death have an important reason. Elaine Pagels talks about this in one of her books on early Christianity where she describes blaming herself for the loss of her child, even though there was nothing she could have done to change that death. She said that it was easier to blame herself than to face the possibility that the death was random and uncontrollable. Random death scares people even more than conspiracies do. I had to face random death at a very young age in a very personal way. I'm not entirely comfortable with it but I also don't try to escape it as a common explanation for why people die in unusual and sometimes even horrible ways.

47 posted on 12/05/2003 3:22:45 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Taylor42; struwwelpeter
Maybe someone can tell us how "easy" or "not easy" it would be to influence an INS nav system with false signals.

You'd have to alter the strength of the Earth's gravity field.

48 posted on 12/05/2003 3:24:44 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: Alberta's Child
I read about this in the article at the top, but I don't understand why a U.S. Federal court would have any jurisdiction in the case. I have always been under the impression that international flights of this sort would be subject to international law, not U.S. law.

Flight originated or terminated in United States = case gets tried in United States.

49 posted on 12/05/2003 3:26:35 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: struwwelpeter; snopercod
I am given to understand, that during World War II, certain U.S. aircraft were equipped to broadcast by shortwave radio, all the way back to Washington, D.C., from anywhere around the globe, in order to send the most urgent messages where undersea cables could not do the job, and base stations were not big enough or were not set up.

From north Africa and the Mediterranean, B-17's with 15kw transmitters were used.

In films of the era, you'll see B-25 and B-25 bombers on raids, and among them on the way out, a B-17 that would turn for home before entering the target area.

Though I also understand that on a few occasions, the B-17's went along for the whole raid and broadcast the raid "live."

Heard inside the Pentagon, by a few listeners.

50 posted on 12/05/2003 3:31:38 PM PST by First_Salute
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To: Taylor42
You would some how have to spoof it with a gravity-induced navigation error. It is a system that can not be simply jammed like a gps nav aid. As the configuration was triply redundant you would have to somehow tamper with all the sensors and do it in such a manner that at least two returned identical navigation data.

best regards

the dozer
51 posted on 12/05/2003 3:34:06 PM PST by dozer7
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To: Question_Assumptions
I often am stressed out by worrying that the stress of working on computers (my current work) can be deadly.

Glad to hear that you survived well enough.

52 posted on 12/05/2003 3:35:46 PM PST by First_Salute
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To: First_Salute
I often am stressed out by worrying that the stress of working on computers (my current work) can be deadly.

I don't find working on computers stressful. It's the dealing with the people part that's stressful. :-) From what I've heard, my mother was a "natural programmer", something I most certainly inherited from her.

Glad to hear that you survived well enough.

A loving extended family helped a lot. A whole lot.

53 posted on 12/05/2003 3:40:00 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: struwwelpeter
Wouldn't Canadian courts try to see that their citizens received a fair shake as well?

Not if the law specifically laid out the terms for liability in an incident outside Canada's jurisdiction.

There's actually a case in which this would have applied, and I'll do some research to see how it was resolved. It involved the bombing of an Air India flight out of Vancouver some years ago.

54 posted on 12/05/2003 3:42:04 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: Poohbah
Flight originated or terminated in United States = case gets tried in United States.

Based on what -- a U.S. court decision along these lines?

This would then mean that international maritime law would be overriden by U.S. law -- even in cases involving an oceangoing freighter flying under a foreign flag that just happened to make a port call in the U.S. I don't think that's the case at all. How much of those "unlimited damages" assessed against KAL ever got paid out in claims?

55 posted on 12/05/2003 3:46:29 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: Alberta's Child
This would then mean that international maritime law would be overriden by U.S. law -- even in cases involving an oceangoing freighter flying under a foreign flag that just happened to make a port call in the U.S. I don't think that's the case at all. How much of those "unlimited damages" assessed against KAL ever got paid out in claims?

"International maritime law" is United States law.

And willful misconduct by a vessel's owner (not the master, the owner) that results in death or injury isn't limited in liability, anyway.

56 posted on 12/05/2003 3:48:22 PM PST by Poohbah ("Beware the fury of a patient man" -- John Dryden)
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To: First_Salute
Thanks for the ping.
57 posted on 12/05/2003 4:12:39 PM PST by Ragtime Cowgirl ( "Our military is full of the finest people on the face of the earth." ~ Pres. Bush, Baghdad)
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To: struwwelpeter
The White Star Line was a British steamline company, true, but it was owned by J P Morgan and was therefore an American company. Cngress had every responsibility to look into the disaster.
58 posted on 12/05/2003 4:19:44 PM PST by Tulsa Brian (Second place is the first loser)
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To: Question_Assumptions
It was essentially a random and unpredictable death.

I recognize the M.O. This was an Arkanside.

59 posted on 12/05/2003 5:12:35 PM PST by Doe Eyes
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To: Alberta's Child
I think that's a bit of a stretch. He probably would have needed to make another career move before that -- Senators and Representatives are rarely elected to the White House directly from their seat in Congress. The vast majority of U.S. Presidents in recent decades were former governors.

Maybe. Maybe not.

IIRC, neither Bush Sr nor Bob Dole was ever a governor.

McDonald had a lot of things going for him. He was very photogenic and articulate. Also, he was quite popular and had a lot of strong supporters (both individuals and groups).

Unfortunately, we'll never know.

But my point remains that he still posed a threat to the enemies of the Constitution.

60 posted on 12/05/2003 8:48:10 PM PST by Mulder (Fight the future)
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