Sept 11 relatives demand long sentence for accused (in Germany)

Reuters ^ | 12/4/04

[areafiftyone]

HAMBURG, Germany, Dec 4 (Reuters) - Relatives of September 11 victims demanded on Thursday the maximum 15-year jail sentence for a Moroccan on trial in a German court for helping the suicide hijackers and for belonging to an al Qaeda cell.

Five relatives spoke on behalf of 25 co-plaintiffs in the trial of Abdelghani Mzoudi, charged with several thousand counts of aiding and abetting murder, and membership of a terrorist organisation, the Hamburg cell at the centre of the attack plot.

In several hours of moving testimony, the relatives told of their pain. Debra Burlingame, whose brother was the pilot on the plane the attackers crashed into the Pentagon, called for the Hamburg court to hand the student a 15-year sentence.

"The men who murdered my brother didn't know him. For them he was just a means to an end. He always wanted to do the right thing and he was slaughtered like an animal," she told the court, her voice choked with tears.

"In the name of my brother, his crew and the passengers on board the plane, I humbly ask for justice."

Mzoudi, a 30-year-old electrical engineering student, sat motionless with his head bowed as he listened to the testimony.

Joan Molinaro, the mother of a fireman who died trying to save lives at the World Trade Center, described al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden as "the great Satan".

She said her son became a hero for the world on September 11, adding: "He was always our hero."

Mzoudi is accused of handling money for a plotter, attending an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan in 2000 and covering up for other members of the Hamburg cell while they were in Afghanistan or taking flying lessons in the United States.

Mzoudi has not replied to the charges in court. His lawyers say he did little more than help fellow Muslims, and his paying of bills for a friend had nothing to do with the hijack plot.

The Hamburg court had wanted to wrap up the trial by Christmas but Judge Klaus Ruehle said last week he would have to wait for the German government to decide whether to hand over U.S. records of the interrogation of an al Qaeda leader.

The U.S. government has made available to Germany transcripts of the interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of September 11, to help investigations against Islamic extremists but not to be used in ongoing trials.

Germany has said in the past it would not allow similar interrogation records to be used in court proceedings.

The trial will resume next Thursday.

[Michael81Dus]

No. I have experienced that Freepers love the idea of comparing a recent event to the Nazi past. But I find such comparisons tasteless and disgusting. I think it´s undermining the crimes and horror the Nazi victims had to suffer from.

We are Christians, aren´t we? So tell me when did Jesus Christ tell us that it´s right to kill others? It´s up to Heavenly Father to make the last sentence.

We´ve a justice system that values the human dignity and that doesn´t ignore the fact that punishing people to death will never bring back any of the victims.

[Michael81Dus]

Following your arguments, you would have put every German or to an lesser extent, every NSDAP-member on the death row, because they were members of an organisation that has caused the death of tens of millions. You would also kill the guy who sat in his office, writing food orders or the women who has voted for Hitler.

We have to make differences. The individual guilt is the key. What would a reasonable third tell us? He´d say punish the guy who pulls the trigger harder than the guy who drove the bank robbers car.

Oh sure, bin Laden and Omar are HIJACKERS! You haven´t read carefully enough. I told you that the hijackers are dead. The encouragers of these crimes are alive and need to be punished for their behaviour - as hard as the actual offender. The distinction needs to be made between the offender and encourager on the one side and he who ´just´ helps on the other. We need to ´reward´ those who didn´t want to pull the trigger (fly the plane).

[putupon]

And just how would the hijackers financed their flight school training, housing, etc. w/out this murderer funneling the money?

Without him, no hijacking.

He is, therefore, a participant in the actual execution of the deed and as guilty as the jihadists on the planes.

I hope ya'll have as much inmate on inmate murder over there as we do, maybe this POS will get his virgins in the near future.

[Michael81Dus]

I perfectly understand your emotional reaction. Still, it´s emotional. You and I we may react emotional, however, the state must not.

Without him, no hijacking.

True, but without the parents of the hijackers, there´d be no hijacking either. So, you see that we have to draw a line. And my state draws that line between those who actually did it, those who encouraged others to do it (promising an advantage, giving money, telling them to do it, etc) and those who helped somehow. It´s my states decision, I´m fine with that, and you don´t need to agree with that. All I request you is to respect it. If you can´t we´ve to live with it.

I think we´ve exchanged our arguements. Therefore I wish you a nice weekend, Michael

[stainlessbanner]

Great post, Polybius. He'll walk in 5 with new contacts and methods he learned in jail.

[stainlessbanner]

so we need to "reward" him for having been too shy to do it

This man deserves no rewards.

[Smile-n-Win]

I have experienced that Freepers love the idea of comparing a recent event to the Nazi past. But I find such comparisons tasteless and disgusting.

Those who refuse to learn from the past are bound to repeat it.

So tell me when did Jesus Christ tell us that it´s right to kill others?

When did Jesus Christ tell us that we have no right to self-defense?

[Smile-n-Win]

True, but without the parents of the hijackers, there´d be no hijacking either.

The parents did not know their sons would commit these crimes. Those who helped the terrorists knew they were committing these crimes.

Americans like to judge people by who they are, not by who their father was--or who their sons are.

So, you see that we have to draw a line. And my state draws that line between those who actually did it, those who encouraged others to do it (promising an advantage, giving money, telling them to do it, etc) and those who helped somehow. It´s my states decision, I´m fine with that, and you don´t need to agree with that. All I request you is to respect it.

Yeah, right--we have to draw the line, but it's up to the state where to draw it. No individual rights, no objective standards--once you're in power, you can do anything you want. If the state draws the kind of lines that Hitler drew, we are still supposed to "respect it."

Why do you want a third war, Michael? Weren't two enough?

[Michael81Dus]

When did Jesus Christ tell us that we have no right to self-defense?

May I remind you of Matthew 5, 38-48 ???

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ..."

[Michael81Dus]

Where did I write that I wanted another war? What is the common thing between the penal code of the Federal Republic of Germany and the Holocaust?

Americans like to judge people who they are? Well, Germans don´t look at the heritage of someone, we judge everyone on its individual guilt. And pulling the trigger is worse than driving the bank robbers car!

The state draws the line, and the state is a democratic one. That´s why we have to respect it. There´s nothing in common with Hitler, so stop these dumb comparisons. Get back to the topic.

[Michael81Dus]

Of course he does. If we would punish him like a real murderer, what would prevent others from becoming a murderer instead of helping? He has chosen not to kill someone directly, so he should not be punished the same like a murderer.

[Polybius]

In Germany, we make a difference between killing someone, encouraging someone to kill (like giving money or sth else) and helping someone to kill another. While we punish the first two groups of people with life imprisonment, those who help the offender but actually do not pull the trigger themselves (like the car driver on a run after a bank robbery) can get a 15 year term in prison. This is justified because they were not the leading figures in the crime, unlike the encouraging person and the offender himself. In fact it´s our belief that restrictions on freedom must be considered very good and limited only to necessary terms. This guy didn´t want to committ the crime by himself, so we need to "reward" him for having been too shy to do it. If he would get the same sentence like the offender and the encourager, what else would prevent others from pulling the trigger next time too? We need to make that distinction.

As a military individual, you understand that, very often, the trigger puller is the lowest ranking individual in the entire enterprise.

The "crime" is the murder of 3,000 human beings and it was a team effort such as any military operation is a team effort. One can always argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and try to say which part of the team effort was the crime and which part was not. You can carry such intellectual exercises to the conclusion that the terrorists sitting in the pilot's seats of those planes were merely hijackers flying unsafely.

Under U.S. law, such scenarios are classified as "Conspiracies". The elements and punishment for conspiracy are well outlined and explained U.S. military law in Punitive Articles of the UCMJ: Article 81—Conspiracy

****************************

Elements:

(1) That the accused entered into an agreement with one or more persons to commit an offense under the code; and

(2) That, while the agreement continued to exist, and while the accused remained a party to the agreement, the accused or at least one of the co-conspirators performed an overt act for the purpose of bringing about the object of the conspiracy.

Maximum punishment:

Any person subject to the code who is found guilty of conspiracy shall be subject to the maximum punishment authorized for the offense which is the object of the conspiracy, except that in no case shall the death penalty be imposed.

****************************

It is not the death penalty or lack thereof that is repulsive. The UCMJ does not provide for the death penalty.

It is sentencing a man to less than 44 hours per human death that is repulsive.

And punishment in Germany follows two aims: preventing him from doing it again/integrate him into society and punish him for his crimes. Apparently, unlike you, my country believes in the New Testament (love your enemies). We don´t need to take it litterally. We can forgive, and we don´t believe that a state has the right to kill except in self-defense (war). The saying "eye for an eye" doesn´t work - just look at Israel/Palestine. The last judgment is up to God, not to us!

Let's try to keep God out of this. The last time that Germany invoked "Gott Mit Uns" to justify their national policy and inscribed those words on their military belt buckles, things did not turn out so well.

This "Germany loves it's neighbors unlike you Old Testament Americans" is an example the the manic depressive moral values extremes I mentioned in Post #14. In exterminating the untermemchen, Germans invoked God. In treating a terrorist with kid gloves, you now invoke God.

Let's try to keep things on the "Render unto Caesar that things that are Caesars" level with the knowledge that we have two different Caesars.

That being said, Western Europe's endless cycle of war and violence and genocide ended when America's Caesar enforced his value system upon Western Europe in 1945.

If Germany is at peace now, you can thank that American value system that did not try to get your eyes but also your heart and your liver and your lungs as the French did at Versailles.

If Germany is at peace now, you can thank that American value system that did not try to "forgive" the Nazis.

As I understand it, in Germany, it is still illegal for a military model builder to adorn his model of an Me.109 with a historically correct Nazi swastika.

Not much "forgiveness" there. Not that there should be.

[Michael81Dus]

As a military individual, you understand that, very often, the trigger puller is the lowest ranking individual in the entire enterprise.

Sure, but we´re not in the military. In the armed forces, the lower ranks have no alternative, they obey orders (except the orders mean a crime, etc). The criminals decided on their own which part they played. That´s why we judge everyone on his individual guilt. The hijacker wanted to crush the plane into WTC A, so he did it. His accomplice has chosen to stay in Hamburg, so he did not that much for the crime.

And again, in the military, those who give orders are responsible for the actions of their soldiers. It´s the same here: bin Laden is also responsible for what Atta and others did. He encouraged them to committ murder in 3000+ cases. The guy on trial right now did not encourage or promote the murder, he did his little part. He surely was no leading person.

Let's try to keep God out of this. The last time that Germany invoked "Gott Mit Uns" to justify their national policy and inscribed those words on their military belt buckles, things did not turn out so well.

A rant again. Where´s the connection between the Nazi era and today´s Germany and todays trial? Nothing. Our justice system is based on the Christian values, unlike in the Nazi era.

This "Germany loves it's neighbors unlike you Old Testament Americans" is an example the the manic depressive moral values extremes I mentioned in Post #14. In exterminating the untermemchen, Germans invoked God. In treating a terrorist with kid gloves, you now invoke God.

You still haven´t told me the connection between the Nazi era and our democratic justice system. Our moral values are conclusions of the Christian religion and our experiences of the Nazi past. We will never treat a prisoner or a suspect the way the Nazis did it, and we respect the value of each life, even of those people who have did so cruel things. Even today, a Hitler would not get more than a (literally) life-long imprisonment. No matter how many deaths he may be responsible for.

Forgiveness has nothing to do with improper self-defense or punishment. You can punish someone and forgive him to the extent, that the state rejects any form of taking revenge.

Finally, yes, I disregard the "eye for eye" quote. It´s not appropriate to found a justice system on it. Every Sunday I pray the pater-noster (Our Father...), and every Sunday, I announce: "as we also have forgiven our debtors."

So what about forgiving them? It´s not that we invite them to do their awful work a second time, but at least we´re not following our emotions but look at the objective individual offense of them.

It´s the law, and if you don´t understand our view now, I have failed. My task was to present you the position of me, my government and my people, and if you still do not understand my words, I can´t help you anymore. My task is not to persuade you, I did the best I can to explain it to you.

FReegards,

Michael

[Michael81Dus]

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Matthew 6,14

It´s that, what I TRY to lead me in life. It´s not easy, and I´m glad that my state follows these words, because I´m not perfect either.

[Polybius]

Let's try to keep God out of this. The last time that Germany invoked "Gott Mit Uns" to justify their national policy and inscribed those words on their military belt buckles, things did not turn out so well.

A rant again. Where´s the connection between the Nazi era and today´s Germany and todays trial? Nothing.

"Gott Mit Uns" was inscribed on German belt buckles in 1914 before there were any such thing as Nazis.

My point is that claiming that you are following God while your opponent is not has been used to justify all sorts of trouble in this world.

The connection between the Nazi era and today is that Germany does not have a stable moral compass that it can look back on to provide stability for assuming any "holier than thou" attitude in the year 2003.

Depending on your age, either your father or your grandfather would have been involved in the Nazi era and the parents and grandparents have an effect on the child.

My personal opinion is that Germany, like a reformed alcoholic or like the son of an alcoholic, has reacted to the orgy of bloodshed and genocide that Germany was responsible for.

It has now gone over to the other extreme.

Just as the alcoholic or son of the alcoholic that rails against all alcohol, Germany now condemns the U.S. for exercising harsher punishments on individuals that have done nothing than, say, help murder 3,000 innocent civilians.

The son of the alcoholic who condemns the man having a glass of wine and proclaims himself to be morally superior to the wine drinker is very much the product of his father's alcoholic past.

So it is with Germany's new-found exagerated reverence for a crimminal's life that believes that 44 hours in prison for each human murdered is suitable punishment and claims a moral superiority over Americans who disagree.

Such an attitude is very much a direct connection with and a product of Germany's Nazi past.

[mjaneangels@aolcom]

"True, but without the parents of the hijackers, there´d be no hijacking either."

Wrong, there would just be different hijackers. Without financing, there would be no hijackings, even if there were willing hijackers.

[Smile-n-Win]

It has now gone over to the other extreme.

Oh, I think it's exactly the same extreme, only with a different justification!

There is quite an amount of irony in what you wrote in #14--I thought you were aware of it and intended it: "Now, Germans believe that human life is so precious that a terrorist planner should only lose 15 years of it even if he helps murder 3,000 individuals."

As putupon said, 43.8 hours / death means "life is cheap." The life of innocents is cheap, that is--the life of murderers is precious. And that's exactly how it was in the Third Reich. New bottle, same beer.

Can you now see why we're worried, Michael? BTW Hitler was elected democratically, too--it's freedom that matters, not democracy.

[Michael81Dus]

My point is that claiming that you are following God while your opponent is not has been used to justify all sorts of trouble in this world.

Opponent? Which oppenent? The US justice system is not our oppoenent! We have our system, you have yours. We believe that ours is based on the Christian values, and yours is not. But we´re not opponents, and our systems are not in a competition.

Oh, and I deeply believe that we have a moral compass. Our system is stable, and you should prove the opposite.

We´re not in the other extreme, we just turned our backs on unhuman injustice, on cruel punishment, on unnecessary penalties. We judge individuals.

We do not differentiate in the number of deaths caused by one action. Osama could have killed 1, 1,000 or 1,000,000 people - he still would face the life sentence. And anyone who helped him without being the actual offender or encourager would face 15 years.

Get it: we judge the individual and we have legal maximum penalties.

Get it: we don´t have problems with people saying that the fine should be higher, but we have problems with people saying that our moral judgment would not be appropriate. I respond to those that our system follows the ideals of the New Testament, and that such a system based on Jesus principles cannot be immoral. In fact, those who disagree have to prove that their counter-proposal is morally.

The only connection between Nazi Germany and today I can see is, that our judgments are written in German as well.

[Michael81Dus]

You say life is cheap here.

WE SAY:

- the guy JUST HELPED. He wasn´t the actual encourager or offender, therefore, his fine must be lowered.
- these 3,000 deaths are considered as one action, in German law you cannot get 3,000 x 15 years or 3,000 x life imprisonment. If your crime was one (membership of a terrorist org), you´ll be fined once.
- lock him off forever will not reanimate any of the deads, noone will be more free when he´s in jail for his life. We say that every man has the right to prove that he has improved. In fact, life isn´t cheap here. The opposite is true. The deads are dead. Every life is worth to protect. The offender will get a second chance to prove that he´s worth a life in freedom. And if he fails, he´ll die in prison.

There´s no relation to the Nazi era, and everybody who claims the opposite can just p*§* 0ff. I get sick and tired of this BS. Call the embassy, all European States, or your local fire dept. Maybe they can help you. I can´t and I´m not going to spend my time on this anymore. I´ve said what I regard being important in my posts on this thread. Read them again or not.

[Smile-n-Win]

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." - Adam Smith